The Remorseless

1. How many of you - besides being so caught up in yourselves - lack remorse and guilt?
2. Is a narcissistic lack of remorse different from that of the antisocial?

The trait is often recognized as an antisocial trait, but I'm sure a narcissist can have it as well. It is not a defining trait, but it should be considered.

I lack it, at least in the things I've done in my life so far.

Discuss.

/M

I think its liek with empathy. An aspect of the newer research is that in pwNPD [cognitive] empathy is a choice and pwNPD simply say no very often. I guess in guilt and remorse its kind of the same thing, its not a necessary thing really for someone who is pathologically self-involved and its also not essential for social interaction so meh.
In comparison a person taht I would consider antisocial (in comparison to the lot of criminals that are diagnosed as ASPD because the DSM def is so crappy), there is so much infusion of the outside world with hostility, contempt and the wish to get over on everyone, that the lack of remorse is more of a systemic thing; in a way if everyone is an enemy there is no way for remorse to even be an option.

Akuma wrote:In comparison a person taht I would consider antisocial (in comparison to the lot of criminals that are diagnosed as ASPD because the DSM def is so crappy), there is so much infusion of the outside world with hostility, contempt and the wish to get over on everyone, that the lack of remorse is more of a systemic thing; in a way if everyone is an enemy there is no way for remorse to even be an option.

It's an interesting way to look at it. I agree with you that the DSM is utter sh#t. ICD-10 (used in Europe) also has a very different outlook on antisocial personality disorder, when they diagnose. The diagnosic traits are as follows:

https://mhreference.org/ wrote:Personality disorder, usually coming to attention because of a gross disparity between behaviour and the prevailing social norms, and characterized by at least 3 of the following:

1. callous unconcern for the feelings of others;
2. gross and persistent attitude of irresponsibility and disregard for social norms, rules and obligations;
3. incapacity to maintain enduring relationships, though having no difficulty in establishing them;
4. very low tolerance to frustration and a low threshold for discharge of aggression, including violence;
5. incapacity to experience guilt and to profit from experience, particularly punishment;
6. marked proneness to blame others, or to offer plausible rationalizations, for the behaviour that has brought the patient into conflict with society.

There may also be persistent irritability as an associated feature. Conduct disorder during childhood and adolescence, though not invariably present, may further support the diagnosis.

This confirms the outlook you have on ASPD. One thing that is #######5 about ICD-10 in regards to NPD, is that it is not "accepted" as an official personality disorder. It is put under "PD Otherwise Specified; Narcissistic Personality Disorder". So I'm sure a lot of narcissistic individuals - which is prone to interpersonal and external antisocial behaviour - will be diagnosed ASPD rather than NPD.

Midwinter wrote:This confirms the outlook you have on ASPD. One thing that is #######5 about ICD-10 in regards to NPD, is that it is not "accepted" as an official personality disorder. It is put under "PD Otherwise Specified; Narcissistic Personality Disorder". So I'm sure a lot of narcissistic individuals - which is prone to interpersonal and external antisocial behaviour - will be diagnosed ASPD rather than NPD.

I dont think its a problem. I've been diagnosed at the psychoanalytic institute with narcissistic-schizoid PD, which is neither in the DSM nor the ICD. Now I've started last week with my PA and he is not interested in these labels at all, because it's about working out the inner workings of the mind itself, so labels become quite superflous. I would think that with an insightful person like yourself its quit the same - a label is not very relevant, question is is there something to do about problems that exist and what would that be. Imo.
As to ASPD in particular, I only had some dealigns with professional criminals in the past, I dont remember any person I would consider ASPD. The same goes for the forum here, it seems full of people with all sorts of funny illnesses, but I dont think a ASPD would - cough - socialize in such a lowly manner.
Ah well. Off to the bakery for me. Have a nice day man.

I would think that with an insightful person like yourself its quit the same - a label is not very relevant, question is is there something to do about problems that exist and what would that be.

Yeah the label isn't the interesting, and the reason I have sought therapy before without luck. It's more to learn about what makes me who I am, and what the workings behind it all are.

The same goes for the forum here, it seems full of people with all sorts of funny illnesses, but I dont think a ASPD would - cough - socialize in such a lowly manner.
Ah well. Off to the bakery for me. Have a nice day man.

Depends on certain types. I think some of them are very aggressive, and that turns out as arrogance and demeanor on the forums. Have a nice day as well.

Remorse by definition means a deep guilt, regret. Therefore, I have felt remorse on a few occasions, but I have not said sorry and in addition I have always suppressed this emotion by justifying myself when I am alone. Remorse makes me feel bad about myself. Looking at it now, I can say that it's been around a year or even more since I remember feeling it for last.

kaloya123 wrote:Remorse by definition means a deep guilt, regret. Therefore, I have felt remorse on a few occasions, but I have not said sorry and in addition I have always suppressed this emotion by justifying myself when I am alone. Remorse makes me feel bad about myself. Looking at it now, I can say that it's been around a year or even more since I remember feeling it for last.

So you answered the first question yourself:

1. How many of you - besides being so caught up in yourselves - lack remorse and guilt?

"Therefore, I have felt remorse on a few occasions. Remorse makes me feel bad about myself. Looking at it now, I can say that it's been around a year or even more since I remember feeling it for last."

So you have it. Good.
So do you think the narcissistic lack of remorse is caused by different psychological mechanisms than that of ASPD? Or do you think a lack of remorse in narcissists is touches of ASPD instead?

Midwinter wrote:So do you think the narcissistic lack of remorse is caused by different psychological mechanisms than that of ASPD? Or do you think a lack of remorse in narcissists is touches of ASPD instead?

Well, speaking for myself, I suppress the emotion, but I don't completely lack it. I don't want to acknowledge it. NPDs low on the spectrum (such as myself) have the capacity to feel it but choose not to, whereas NPDs high on the spectrum are more psychopathic and almost fully lack the emotion.
The majority of ASPDs biologically are incapable of feeling remorse, especially the ones who admit that they even don't know what is the definition of some emotions.

The version of AsPD (initially termed dissocial personality disorder) in the ICD-10 is actually taken from the DSM-IV with the criteria from the suggested diagnosis "sadistic/aggressive Personality disorder" that wouldn't fit elsewhere thrown in. Or at least so the NICE clinical guidelines tell me.

How does one go about clinically determining that someone lacks the capacity to feel guilt?

1. I feel sorry if I accidentally tread on my dogs paw, in dealings with people I take a more pragmatic approach, if it was necessary or didn't cause measurable direct harm I don't see the issue. I'm usually dissociated enough from my own actions that they don't bother me much. Honestly I can't think of anything I have to feel guilty about right now, so an example of what sort of infraction we are talking about would be useful.

2. I don't really accept the premise of the question, PDs exist on a continuum of different traits, the diagnostic classifications are just an arbitrary taxonomic system. If the aetiology of any of them was known then they would be diseases not disorders. Equally how can anyone know whether pwNPD who lack remorse do so differently from those with AsPD unless the mechanism by which pwAsPD lack remorse is also known?

I agree that the PD's are an 'arbitrary taxonic system'. They are also an absurd classification system due to the astronomical number of conditions that would lead to a diagnosis of one or more PDs.

Each PD is defined by having so many traits out of some many possible ones. Each trait for each PD is supposed to be distinct from the trait of any other PD. Since it is allowed in the system that a person diagnosed with one PD can have traits of other ones

and since there is no limit on how many or few of those traits you can have

it is a simple exercise to calculate the 'number of combinations' of distinct traits that can lead to a diagnoses of e.g BPD or NPD or ASPD etc.

Due to the combinatorial factors you get a huge explosion

so the number of combinations of traits that can lead to a diagnosis of any given personality disorder is larger than the number of grains of sand on the planet earth. It is in the range of Avagadro's number...

There is no other classification system that has ever been used in modern medicine or science that has this absurd feature.