Is NPD a side effect of high intelligence/IQ?

For doing this for a living, you clearly do not have any understanding of the individual with narcissistic personality traits. I suggest you find a new line of work.

How I act is not an act. How I act is how I am.

I do what comes naturally to me 99% of the time. Anything else would be 'acting'.. and that is clearly not something I am good at in the least.

Truth too late wrote:That is the problem with NPD. All I did was point out that you said acting comes very easily to you. I know you can spin that any way you wish. I have no desire to spin with you.

svenska500 wrote:That's what you clearly do not understand. 'Act' for me is being me.

You can clearly act. It's just a matter of what you want to act. You do it when you are proud of being disordered, explaining how you make it work for you -- then taking a minimalist position (it's not me, I mean it is me, but it's not...).

I used to do this for a living. I know how it is. It will work for you until it doesn't. Playing hopscotch with Humpty Dumpty's "when I use a word, it means just what I say I choose it to mean -- neither more nor less."[1] That's part of making it work.

I can't add anything more. Good luck. You win!

[1]

"I don't know what you mean by 'glory,' " Alice said.
Humpty Dumpty smiled contemptuously. "Of course you don't—till I tell you. I meant 'there's a nice knock-down argument for you!' "
"But 'glory' doesn't mean 'a nice knock-down argument'," Alice objected.
"When I use a word," Humpty Dumpty said, in rather a scornful tone, "it means just what I choose it to mean—neither more nor less."
"The question is," said Alice, "whether you can make words mean so many different things."
"The question is," said Humpty Dumpty, "which is to be master—that's all."

Alice was too much puzzled to say anything, so after a minute Humpty Dumpty began again. "They've a temper, some of them—particularly verbs, they're the proudest—adjectives you can do anything with, but not verbs—however, I can manage the whole lot! Impenetrability! That's what I say!"
-- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Humpty_Du ... king-Glass

Clearly your knowledge of those with narcissistic personality traits is severely lacking. There's obviously a reason you 'used' to do this for a living. You have no clue in what you used to do it appears.

Truth too late wrote:I used to do this for a living. I know how it is. It will work for you until it doesn't. Playing hopscotch with Humpty Dumpty's "when I use a word, it means exactly what I say it does" is just part of making it work.

I can't add anything more. Good luck.

"I am not arrogant and cannot stand arrogant people. How does that come across as saying I am hiding my arrogance?"

"When I use a word," Humpty Dumpty said, in rather a scornful tone, "it means just what I choose it to mean—neither more nor less."

When one says he acts stupid, drunk, etc, in order to know another person's arrogance-- <whew>, that's hidden arrogance in spades.

MeAgain wrote:I've always believed that narcissists are Humanity in its raw form. I've just read BPD for Dummies. And that seems to make a similar point. Without narcissism, we'd still be huddled at the back of the cave fretting about the sabre toothed tigers wandering about outside. As for happiness. Well that's some else we invented. Along with religion!

Does that mean you won't be seeking the therapy which you said you were considering, which Dr. Invention is "badgering" you to into?

I understand your point. A spark of narcissism is necessary to create art, build homes, negotiate a wage, compromise with a spouse. Everyone is self-interested in some way. Collectively that does lead to what a majority of humans call "progress."

But, was that really the disordered level? Using your caveman example, would it be the Narcissist who boldly went out and slew the saber-toothed tiger in noble, self-sacrificing bravery?

For example, you deleted your account due to a narcissistic injury and are reluctant to talk about your disorder. Forgive me, but I believe that could be scripted into a movie as the fearful cave-dweller. Not the one who proved the cat isn't master.

Or, @sven. He would act like he's not grandiose in order to see if the cat is (maybe the cat's a good lay or something) -- then criticize his fellow cave-dwellers for pointing out the scratches and expecting him to learn something from it. ("I can't change myself! I don't have control like that! You clearly are not advanced like I am!").

It seems to me it would be the other cave-dwellers who would "advance and progress" by organizing for mutual benefit, and overtake the cat through numbers. Cooperation isn't something NPDs do well because of the ease with which Humpty Dumpty can fall off the wall. It seems to me it would be the normals who "use" the information from the disordered as a cannon for "how not to be." What the limits of "the spark of self-interest" should be.

@Sven would move from cave to cave after the hiding-himself phase (and the normals evict him). You would remain in the cave after the normals left, "they always leave and never come back. I'm sure something terrible befell them. It's people like me who survive. It's born out by every caveman show I've seen -- where the occupants leave and never come back!"

What does everyone think about this correlation? Is NPD per chance a side effect of high intelligence/IQ and/or do you guys think it is just a coincidence that the majority narcs score rather high on the intelligence/IQ tests a majority of the time..?

Errrm, no. Hang around for a while and read the posts by Ns, you'll see just how wrong you are. What does seem to correlate, however, is the belief that one is exceptionally intelligent and his or her NPD diagnosis. There are plenty of dumb Ns and very few truly self aware ones.

realityhere wrote:"When I use a word," Humpty Dumpty said, in rather a scornful tone, "it means just what I choose it to mean—neither more nor less."

When one says he acts stupid, drunk, etc, in order to know another person's arrogance-- <whew>, that's hidden arrogance in spades.

This brings back so many memories. At first it's triggering. I don't feel good about it. But, then it's like relief at how I recognize it -- and how much time I wasted trying to prove myself, maintaining a false balance.

What I'm relating to right now is something I related to in the thread about Amy's Baking Co. When I used to engage in Humpty Dumpty'ism, I would literally have that feeling I described in that thread: of standing on a ladder holding sheets of plywood, in a wind. I knew I could "revise" anything I said to mean whatever I wanted it to mean. It was just a matter of beating down the other guy. I have an unlimited source of ink. I just have to talk around it. No big deal. (Spin, spin, spin.). It's merely frustrating that the other person puts me to so much work.

I had a couple managers (and many outside of work) refered to my "poison pen." (Rhetorically, I was the decimator. Not necessarily vile, violent rhetoric. But, volume. I could dance around anything. I could spend weeks impressing myself with how I am "schooling" you at how the sun rises in the west. It's all a matter of perspective... mine.). I can't count the number of people who said I should have been a lawyer.

It is so much of a relief to not be consumed by that now. It's there. But it doesn't have power. I just laugh. But, I also feel bad in a way too because I really would have given anything to have seen it at @sven's age. The sheets of plywood would have gotten tiring sooner.

monicaelise wrote:There are plenty of dumb Ns and very few truly self aware ones.

I don't think that's a great way to say it. The dumb ones are simply doing what they must to survive, avoid facing what they've built such impenetrable defenses against. It is not dumb.

@sven's got an advantage the unaware don't. I don't think anyone can be aware of what they do (to the point of hiding it then proving they have more red herrings than anyone else) and refuse to change. Eventually there are too few herrings, to few followers, it's not worth the effort. Unless he's AsPD, I don't think he'll go long without shaping his notion of how it's natural yet controllable.

Wow, that's quite a stretch if I ever saw one. When I'm out in a social situation at a bar or a club, which is literally less than 1% of how the hours in how my life are spent.. I say what is needed to convince the potentials to be intrigued by me. It comes naturally as to what I say.. Just as how most every single other guy says what they think will get them laid from a new potential in their life as well in that similar situation.

By your statement.. I suppose when a guy on a first date with a female says.. "I want to know who you are as a person", when in reality, his inner-self is simply thinking.. how can I act to convince her to sleep with me.. I suppose that makes him and every single other guy on the planet arrogant then huh?

One cannot control how think they or feel. That is the point. One can control what they say. That is the point. Know the difference or continue to be ignorant. The choice is yours.

realityhere wrote:When one says he acts stupid, drunk, etc, in order to know another person's arrogance-- <whew>, that's hidden arrogance in spades.

Finally! Someone that can answer the original question posed. As asked, of the billions of people that have inhabited the earth.. Please name some of these 'dumb Ns' with a low intelligence/iq level from the past or current that are or have been in the public view.

I ask you.. Look at most every single great artist, billionaire, magnate, leader, etc.. of the past and present.. Read their biography.. Do not all of them show signs of the characteristics of NPD?

You are writing on a computer because of one of the premier NPDers of our time.. Most every single great accomplishment in society.. if one were to take the DSM and look up NPD.. the character traits of said individual would clearly define them as having NPD.. If this is not the case.. Please, enlighten us all with the list of great individuals in this world that built society.. that are clearly not narcissistic and dumb as you say..

You said there are plenty. With billions of people that have inhabited the world since the beginning of time.. I am sure you have quite a list. I eagerly await your response Monicaelise.

monicaelise wrote:

Errrm, no. Hang around for a while and read the posts by Ns, you'll see just how wrong you are. What does seem to correlate, however, is the belief that one is exceptionally intelligent and his or her NPD diagnosis. There are plenty of dumb Ns and very few truly self aware ones.

Truth too late wrote:I had a couple managers (and many outside of work) referred to my "poison pen." (Rhetorically, I was the decimator. Not necessarily vile, violent rhetoric. But, volume. I could dance around anything. I could spend weeks impressing myself with how I am "schooling" you at how the sun rises in the west. It's all a matter of perspective... mine.). I can't count the number of people who said I should have been a lawyer.

I wanted to expand on that underlined point. After I posted, I wondered how I lasted as long as I did in a professional job. When I describe it on this forum, it really is dumbfounding. My depiction above is another example of that. I thought about how I had to say what my bucket of ink wasn't. But, that doesn't say what it was (or is). So, I've been thinking about that since posting.

I recall a number of times I was described as "beating them softly with a big stick." That describes it perfectly. I had an analytic skill, vocabulary, drive[1], and antagonistic desire (the need to see myself mirrored in others) to engage in that kind of provocative disagreement *endlessly* in the pursuit of a value or goal.

So, at work, I got away with it because it was seen as valuless. It was never personal. But, it was backhanded. I was an ace-in-the-hole when we needed to stall another department, or win an argument. I came in, it was over. Nobody debated Mr. Gasbag. And I loved ever second of it because wow, I have power. My boss pats me on the head. And I'm emotionally decoupled from it because if I'm told to back off, ok.... nothing personal. I was following orders. I was "taking a hit for the team. I can do what others can't."

[1] I want to expand upon "drive." It is like a propensity to being the "bad cop" in any situation where myself and others are negotiating as a team. I gravitate toward the more aggressive party against the "enemy." I would never choose to be the "good cop."

So, my drive was (is) more like that sadistic compulsion to be the bad cop. But, my traits are more hidden/covert. It's more passive aggressive.

That's how it could exist in the work environment. It wasn't mean and pissy. It was a gigantic diplomatic boat that would run you over as often as you needed to be run over. It didn't matter if I was technically right. I could mix technical and pragmatics like the Tapas bar I used to sit at all day. I just serve it up (covertly feasting upon sadistic fun of proving who I really am).

That could explain the approach I took upon self-awareness (my initial shattering at what I do, how it affects others). It's like I know what I do and I don't have to do it. I can choose to do something else. I can look the other monkey in the eye and say, "we both have a bucket of ink. The difference is, I don't need to debate what a word means in what context. You win."

I changed sides and it's relief. I can get my bananas another way.

But, my point was: that's literally the type of person I was (am). This is like my Pride/Shame thread where I realized "hubris" isn't a compliment. It's funny (and sad) to think about how I seriously thought the perceptions of me were compliments. That was the kind of mirroring I looked for. It was so over-the-top needing to find my "self" like that. I sincerely thought it was a compliment when people said "he'll beat them gently with a very big stick." I had no idea I was making a fool of myself. (That's why it's not necessarily a dumbness, it's a blindness.).

I think this gets into @memme23's thread(s) about how there is something fundamental at the core (love/anger). I recall the sadism I enjoyed from sloshing the ink around. I absolutely believe it was/is steeped in anger. It was passive.

Which also makes me think of the movie Compulsion I posted last night. In Clarence Darrow's closing argument (an appeal to the judge to spare the admitted killers' lives) he said:

If there is any way of destroying hatred and all that goes with it, it's not through evil and hatred and cruelty, but through charity, love, understanding.

I think that's a good way to deal with anyone, but that would have been the best way to reach me back then. I was so "me" that pointing out my harshness, or unpleasantries would have caused me to D&D you, expose you to all my traits -- while recalling how people have complimented me ("hubris," it means "accomplished" and "big stick, yes, I like that. I'm compassionate with it.").

Sven, I hate to burst your bubble but your logic is a mess. You won't see the stupid Ns in the public eye in most cases precisely because they are stupid. They lead inconsequential lives, just like the rest of us poor, stupid slobs. The Ns that become famous are not famous because they're narcissists, they just happen to have done something that the general public has taken notice of.

If you want examples of less-than-brilliant Ns, look to professional sports. I can think of a number of famous athletes who certainly seem to meet the criteria for NPD and are far from intelligent. Likewise with the professional acting community.

Stupid Ns probably aren't going to be bothered with things like IQ tests, or any sort of supposedly objective means of intelligence quantification. They just won't do it. If they do, they're certainly not going to admit that the test was accurate or what their scores are. They wouldn't be Ns if they could accept an objective analysis of their limitations. They'd be healthy, well-adjusted dumb people.

When I told you to look at this board, my point was to direct you to multitude of examples of non-intelligent Ns you will find on these pages. I would guess that smart, successful Ns are even rarer than smart, successful nons simply because most healthy nons can't stomach being around Ns for very long and very few people can become genuinely successful in a vacuum. The example you choose, Steve Jobs, is an exception ...if he even is an N... because he was able to do something truly special. The same holds true for the less than intelligent athletes and actors who meet the DSM criteria for NPD.

Remember, your question was whether Narcissism correlated with intelligence, not whether intelligent narcissists have achieved public acclaim. There certainly are intelligent narcissists. Intelligence is not, however, a trait that is connected with narcissism. It is coincidental at most. Many of the most brilliant thinkers ...Socrates, Plato, Einstein, Bill Gates... were and are the antithesis of narcissists.