Discussing Moderation For NPD forum.

Otter wrote:Since we have this thread, and the subject matter is about moderation - I have some questions...

There seems to be some concern about whether or not a moderator is a non or not. What you think a moderator should do, who is assigned to this forum?

Mainly, it is about getting rid of victim posts that are clearly just for venting and gaining support.
Some people just learn about narcissism on the Internet after a break up, and impulsively come here. They don't know there are NPDs here, but it is just a mistake they make.

Then there is the passive-aggressive posts, that are like asking for "insights", but really is just a cover for attacking people. It is mainly that second type of people that are redoing toxic relationships here. Some of them might even be unaware NPDs, or so it seems.

I don't think it is a matter of nons or not. It is more a matter of not allowing a toxic environment. I believe personally that this place would need some clever moderation, or someone neutral, but engaged. That would be the ideal. Dropping by here and there might work for threads, but not users that just stay to stir the pot, so to speak. That type of moderation cannot be done by an N, because they will be accused of being an N.

See how it goes?

So maybe it would take one N, and a non that is not anti-N, or just the latter. The N can take care of the threads, and the non of the nons. Same as the HPD forum, essentially, where you have an HPD and a non. It would need a pinky as well. I had proposed it in the past, when the pinkies were created, but there was resistance. Now there is no official mods, so there can be no resistance. Things can be done properly, with clear goals in mind.

Otter wrote:Also, how do we know if someone is a non or not? Do we take them at their word? Do they have to be diagnosed? How do we know they are diagnosed?

Well, you can't for everybody. Just take one that relates, and that seems genuine. lol
This PD vs non distinction is toxic, and it is toxic on all forums, but especially this one, in part, like you said, because it is impossible to know. But it is possible to know if someone is respectful of users that do claim to have NPD, or NPD traits, whatever. In the end, it is all that matters, some sort of respect.

Overall though, it is a lot less bad than it used to be, like two years ago and more. But I believe that left to its own devices, it will degenerate back to what it was, since those that purified the place seem to be gone.

My take on this. Clearly I have no interest in this, since I almost never post here. I can see what is happening though.

OneRinger wrote:

So maybe it would take one N, and a non that is not anti-N, or just the latter. The N can take care of the threads, and the non of the nons. Same as the HPD forum, essentially, where you have an HPD and a non. It would need a pinky as well. I had proposed it in the past, when the pinkies were created, but there was resistance. Now there is no official mods, so there can be no resistance. Things can be done properly, with clear goals in mind.

I think your idea of having two mods, one for the Ns and one for the Nons, is a good one.

Ladywith3cats wrote:One point I forgot to add. The new mod should have knowledge about NPD. This doesn't mean they have to be a walking encyclopedia, but they should at least know the basics and have some understanding of it.

Ladywith3cats wrote:I think whoever is chosen should be chosen by the Ns, not the nons. I think the person should:
1. be in therapy or have been in therapy (it makes no difference if they're "healed" or not--most likely they would not be but at least they're working toward it)
2. ideally, have a diagnosis (that may not be possible though since so few here do)
3. have some degree of empathy (it's entirely possible for an N to have that or at least a modicum of it)
4. sensitivity to other Ns and an understanding of our problems.
5. sensitivity to nons also.
6. like helping and welcoming new people to the forum
7. be tough minded enough to issue discipline or warnings when necessary
8. be mature and stay out of high school drama (not that we have much here!)

Once again, i think Stillface fits all these criteria. I'll email her.

Masquerade, Narcbolan, and VAEsquire all fitted this bill.
So we are seeing eye to eye here Ladywith3Cats. I also agree with OneRinger on many points. Especially here:

OneRinger wrote:I don't think it is a matter of nons or not. It is more a matter of not allowing a toxic environment. I believe personally that this place would need some clever moderation, or someone neutral, but engaged. That would be the ideal.

Removing the victims threads entirely from the forum would be a terrible idea IMO (I personally refrain from answering to the relationships thread though). I feel like during 12 steps programs making amends is a crucial step. And while NPDers are as much victims as codependents and nons are, I believe that it would be a bad idea to help NPDers be shunned entirely from the damage they sometimes cause. This is indeed a two way street: both sides have to call themselves into question. Is there another way to raise above the so called victims website? After all, one of the ultimate goal of therapy is to be able to rely on self validation. You might get triggered while frequenting the forum but you can also reflect on the personal meaning this bears, and grow from there: it's a nice transition to the real world.

I also wanted to add that there is a fine line between caring and enabling which I have seen some non members here regularly cross: to quote narcbolan "helping" vs "managing". Is is surprising in itself? Not really, since whether we are neurotic, healthy or disordered individuals, we are, for the most part, coming from narcissistic families. Most of us had either a narcissistic father or a narcissistic mother, sometimes both. And it is only natural (if not healthy), that similar dynamics emerge from interactions on this forum. But I think that we should refrain from letting those dynamics get the best of us when choosing a mod.

I want to make it clear that I have zero desire to be a mod myself as I feel like it would distract me from following the interesting developments in my real life. But I care a lot about the future of the forum since I both contributed and learned so much about myself here.

Ladywith3Cats, that'd be nice if you could keep us posted about Stillface. At the very least, I'd personally love to hear her opinion on this matter. I would also love to hear what other members think about her.

I've been rethinking the idea of having Nons on a different forum or a subforum. I don't see any particular problem with keeping things the way they are. There's another problem with having us separated (Apres, I agree with you that having Nons here does help us Ns realize our accountability in things we have done, whether intentionally or not): it isn't only NPDs who have "victims." If there were a separate forum for victims, it should be for victims of Cluster B's in general. BPDs, HPDs and ASPDs are as likely to have had victims (and sometimes more so) than NPDs. But for some reason we are all "narcs," not "antisocials" or "borderlines." Narcs is a dirty word, but is used as a catchall by the abuse community for people who technically have one of the other 3 disorders too, because they are so similar and tend to be predatory. That's why most victims post here and not under the BPD, HPD, or ASPD forums. There probably should be a separate Non forum (for victims who do not wish to mingle with Cluster B people or are too triggered by it) but it shouldn't be an NPD subforum, just listed as a "Narcisssitic Abuse Victims" forum or "Survivors of Cluster B's" or whatever. OTOH, having such a forum here might discourage some nons from posting here on the NPD forum and learning more about what makes us tick and finding out that we're really human after all. I suppose the Families and Friends forum (sorry if that's not it's exact name) serves that purpose and if a victim doesn't want to post here, they can post on that forum.
Just ramblin'.

The problem with a separate "victims of cluster-b disorder" forum (or whatever title) is that neither nons or pwPD will learn from each other-- there won't be any cross-over communication and some nons just don't heal when the ax-grinding continues. Triggering is indeed traumatic at times, but exposure to the other view can actually make ppl think twice, heal, grow and move on. Such a discussion needs to be moderated with sensitivity from both sides.

The NPD forum needs a dedicated thread for broken non-NPD relationships, similar to the ACON thread still running on the forum, but placed at the top of the forum's sticky notes as a BIG pinky note so the nons can't miss it, IMHO. For example, so many ppl on the long-running ACON thread have replied, thank god I came across this thread, etc and the thread is something of a godsend as the subject is all under one place. The thread should be open to both pwNPD and nons to respond as they wish. Dunno about its moderation, probably would require both N and non mods to keep the discussion civil.

The SOF&F forum is facing a similar problem, getting swamped with broken non-HPD relationship posts, they're almost alike, that a similar thread needs to be set up there as well. Seems the members of the HPD forum are uncomfortable(?) handling such queries on their own forum, hence the SOF&F forum is seeing all this volume. Very few HPD members respond there, so non posters don't get a read on the HPD's side of a relationship unfortunately and there are posters still asking months later, why? why? and why?.

realityhere wrote: Seems the members of the HPD forum are uncomfortable(?) handling such queries on their own forum, hence the SOF&F forum is seeing all this volume. Very few HPD members respond there, so non posters don't get a read on the HPD's side of a relationship unfortunately and there are posters still asking months later, why? why? and why?.

The place was so abusive, that it had to be changed, and it did. It is just that they are consistent in moving the threads there, sometimes leaving a shadow link to it. The HPDs don't want to deal with every guy that has been cheated upon, and in the same way, NPDs don't want to deal with every gal that had a non loving relationship. But it seems that the NPDs are more likely to help, maybe for their own reasons, but still, that is why this place is trickier in that sense. I am sure they like pointed questions, that they can answer without being condemned for doing so. So nons here can be useful for that, as some sort of a challenge, but I don't think being moralized is the right challenge, and that is what some of those victim threads do. Seeing what some other guy did is not helpful at all, imo. Nor having someone start being an expert because they had one relationship, which they call "My N", and so on. It is so condescending, it should have no place in a support forum.

So it is about pointing victim support threads to a more suitable place (and there is plenty of HPD victims that are N there), so having the opposite would not be a bad thing for them. Otherwise, it has to be a support for N, and allowing some questioning and interaction with nons. It can be done, it is just harder here than other forums because of the dynamics. Actually, if nons were actually talking about themselves and how to improve themselves, then it would already be a lot better. But most of those that come here only want to blame and avoid any type of responsibility for the failure of the relationship. That is why it gives the net impression that the victims are more grandiose than the perps. lol
More attention seeking, at any rate.

It took masquerade with a strong hand to clean the other forum up. The same would be needed here, but of course, if you just put someone who will care about their image and enjoy other people getting bullied, it is not going to work. Might as well have no moderation at this point. Since there is no real problem at the moment, it would not be hard to structure something up, if the powers that be want it.

As for asking why, nobody can answer that. It is something the victim has to figure out by themselves, or just move on. I have seen it before, like in the schizoid or aspie forums, there are some victims here and there, but they get told that it varies, everybody is different, etc. It works. But here, people come up to give you the definite answer, but that answer never convince anybody, so in the end, it is all smokes and mirrors, and it keeps the victimization going. The thing is that putting a label on someone, does not mean you can predict their actions, or how they think, only they can really tell. Thinking otherwise, is a form of stigmatization, and keeps the problem going for everybody. Not saying you can't get clues, but counting your life story, simply is not going to work, that is more for support and getting over it, and should be moved out for those reasons.

Thanks, oneringer, for the update about the HPD forum. I've only been here a year on Psychforums and was unaware of that history, which explains the HPD forum members' reluctance to answer such non queries about their disorder. Must have been quite a job for masq.

It is difficult for a non dealing with a PD person and ask himself at the same time "Is it me or him/her?" Having a doubt about one's role in the relationship is hard for some nons to comprehend, when they're so focused on the disordered's behavior. They don't see their own actions triggering the other's behavior and have little knowledge about the mirror concept.

I think there seems to be some consensus on the NPD forum that there needs to be a separate structure for nons inquiring about non-NPD relationships, so that the NPD forum doesn't get swamped with these kind of inquiries and can re-direct its attention to the primary purpose of support for those with NPD.

realityhere wrote:I think there seems to be some consensus on the NPD forum that there needs to be a separate structure for nons inquiring about non-NPD relationships, so that the NPD forum doesn't get swamped with these kind of inquiries and can re-direct its attention to the primary purpose of support for those with NPD.

I'm in agreement with the others on this.

I'd like to add something. Narcissists (me included) have sometimes said that this is a useful place for nons and narcissists to learn more about one another. But in reality, how many times have you ever seen a narcissist ask a non how they feel about things, or how they tend to think? We just don't ask them. I don't think that we are really interested. (I mean specifically, as opposed to a general wish to avoid causing harm.)

I have sometimes seen nons respond more to narcissists than narcissists do to one another, even. Plus, nons can be very supportive. It's just a question of balance. It's been mentioned before that the npd forum wouldn't be as active without nons, but it often seems to swing in the opposite direction, regarding the ratio of narcissists and nons, and there is quite a bit of repetition of the same sort of questions.

I want to emphasise, though, that I've had a lot of help from other narcissists on this forum; often directly, and sometimes indirectly, when reading their posts. I've said before that it's helped me more than anything else, to discover that I'm not the only one who thinks and behaves like I do.

Personally I'd like someone who identifies as a narcissist to act as a moderator on this forum.

bitty wrote:But in reality, how many times have you ever seen a narcissist ask a non how they feel about things, or how they tend to think? We just don't ask them. I don't think that we are really interested.

I think it's an avoidance rather than a lack of interest. It's been called denial of object in object relations theory lingo. To ward off feelings like fear of dependence.

bitty wrote:I've said before that it's helped me more than anything else, to discover that I'm not the only one who thinks and behaves like I do.

In my opinion, this is a part of healing in general, not just for narcissists, understanding that one's puzzling set of behaviors is part of some greater dynamics that has made us who we are and that we had, initially at least, no control over. It provides a feeling of belonging.

bitty wrote:Personally I'd like someone who identifies as a narcissist to act as a moderator on this forum.

I'm on board with that and this is precisely the reason why I proposed somebody like Stillface: this type of person knows how it feels to be a narc, but is wise enough to be able to do justice to the willing nons here. Somebody stuck in mid air would not be able to bridge the gap that well.

I'll have to admit I have a certain hostility to moderation, and moderators, even though I suppose a few are doing their best and trying to be "fair" (though that word doesn't have a lot of meaning to me.) If some or most people here want a moderator, hey, fine, I won't complain. But the more haughty, tyrannical and smug a moderator is, the less I'll be inclined to post on this form. It takes a lot of mental energy for me to gather my thoughts and put them into words, and it's very annoying to have them deleted or heavily edited because they might frighten some delicate little bunny rabbit.

Yes, I think the rants of "nons" are a little tiresome, and we really don't know their full situation. We only have one side of the story and we don't even really know if their spouse, mother, brother, whatever really is a narc or has NPD at all. It's all just their claim. Also, if I am a narc/have NPD/high narc traits I just don't feel I am the "malignant" monster so many nons here describe. So I have nothing to say.

The dissatisfaction and discomfort I have with this form is the therapy pushers. If I truly am a pathological narcissist I don't want to constantly hear this nagging to get therapy. Sam Vaknin had a video about this and as usual I think he was spot on about my own feelings about it, but frankly, I think I'm philosophically justified. Most people here, despite their claims to be "cerebral" don't seem very philosophical or skeptical. I am very, very agnostic, almost, but not quite, to the point of nihilism. I doubt clinical or any other kind of psychology, though they might be helpful for many, are "true sciences", but it wouldn't matter that much if they were. More and more, I've become very anti-science. I couldn't care less what Sam Harris, Steven Hawking or whoever the latest atheist guru says. Your glorious "Science(!)" doesn't impress me any more than evangelical Christianity or ju ju sticks. Get a clue. My mind, in all its turmoil, is more mysterious than you or your therapist can ever imagine, and only I, heracles, has any hope of understanding it. I'm not going to pay big bucks or bet the State to waste my precious time on your shamanism.

And obviously moderation isn't going to help with that. This is "PsychForums" and it was created by and is run by clinical psychologists and psychiatrists who are deeply invested in their paradigm.

I only bother with the few posts by complex, doubting, searching, self-suspected narcissists and others, who are indeed troubled, but just don't feel they fit the text-book description. I connect with these kinds of posts. I relate to them. I see in the posters possible kindred spirits. And the issue isn't some academic one of diagnostic correctness, as the discussions so often get bogged down in, but trying to find some theory or undiscovered insight that'll move us forward and maybe get us out of this jungle, or at least closer to the edge. I try to summon the energy to respond to these. But I don't care to argue with people who take the contrite and obedient attitude that there truly is a horrible disease called "NPD" and the good doctors and DSM always know best. "There are no martyrs here Winston, only penitents."

Other than that, it doesn't matter that much whether there's a moderator or not on here.