Discussing Moderation For NPD forum.

bitty wrote:A false self is someone that a narcissist has to almost become, in public, because there is no firm identity underneath. It's a way of interacting, as well as a means of garnering supply. It's unavoidable, for me, because I can't be my 'real' self. What there is of her would not be accepted. I don't say that from a basis of shame, it's just fact.

Well, you know best where you're coming from!

bitty wrote:Truth was painfully aware of his narcissism, and examined his motives constantly, without giving himself the benefit of the doubt. I don't believe that he derived much satisfaction from praise, (as indeed most self aware narcissists don't, really), because he'd faced himself honestly.

There are a lot of women on this very forum who seem to miss him, fairly sure it's not a coincidence. Idealization is not entirely a bad thing as long as it does not blind you completely to the shortcomings of the people you care about.

What makes you think that being painfully aware of one's own narcissism and deriving satisfaction from praise are mutually exclusive?

On one hand you have TTL explaining "how he treated himself" and on the other hand somebody who is distancing himself from a less than perfect mirror (talking about the whole forum here). Blaming the less than perfect mirror is a narcissistic feature and a personal pattern of TTL.

I do sincerely hope he comes back, and if he cares about any of you guys, he will. But let's not kid ourselves he definitely seemed hooked on the supply you guys were providing him with, which might have very well contributed to preventing him from honestly facing himself at times. I've read time and again that supply in abundance is the curse of the wannabe recovering narcissists. Which this case seems to illustrate rather well in my opinion.

bitty wrote:I'm going to be more open here than I usually am. When people suggested in the past that I may not be a narcissist, I used to feel angry, not because they were taking away a desperately assumed identity, but because I absolutely know that I'm a narcissist, for reasons that I don't discuss fully on a public forum. Now, it's wearying to feel the need to defend and explain what I know in my core, so I just say that I know without doubt that I'm a narcissist.

Thanks for letting me know! I understand how annoying it must be to have your self-knowledge call into question. But what is it that you expect from us then, guys from the public forum? Should we just take your word for it? Or would you prefer not being asked private questions?

Hello, just getting ready to leave, so I won't be able to return to this thread until later, if you respond to this post.

Après L Orage wrote:There are a lot of women on this very forum who seem to miss him, fairly sure it's not a coincidence. Idealization is not entirely a bad thing as long as it does not blind you completely to the shortcomings of the people you care about.

What makes you think that being painfully aware of one's own narcissism and deriving satisfaction from praise are mutually exclusive?

On one hand you have TTL explaining "how he treated himself" and on the other hand somebody who is distancing himself from a less than perfect mirror (talking about the whole forum here). Blaming the less than perfect mirror is a narcissistic feature and a personal pattern of TTL.

I do sincerely hope he comes back, and if he cares about any of you guys, he will. But let's not kid ourselves he definitely seemed hooked on the supply you guys were providing him with, which might have very well contributed to preventing him from honestly facing himself at times. I've read time and again that supply in abundance is the curse of the wannabe recovering narcissists. Which this case seems to illustrate rather well in my opinion.

I almost said in my last post that I was in a catch-22 situation here, because the more appreciation that I showed for Truth, the more I'd be seen to idealise him. And I know that he faced himself extremely honestly. I really don't think that supply from this forum meant a whole lot to him.

I've seen several narcissists write that praise doesn't really mean a lot. It's nice in the short term, but we know what we're really like, and what the other person doesn't see, so in the end, you just know that you've fooled someone else. We have to hide our less desirable traits, and are driven to seek approval, but paradoxically, it has no lasting meaning or effect. A silly, simplistic example might be, if you were wearing an undetectable wig, and someone complimented you on your nice hair, how proud would you really be of your hair?!

I can only speculate, but I think that Truth left because he was depressed, and I hope that he's okay. Plus, he may have been frustrated with the format of Psychforums, I don't know, and I'm not 'having a dig', but I think that the preponderance of 'nons' here was starting to get him down. I really don't think that his reasons for leaving had anything to do with imperfect mirroring. He didn't talk about treating himself in a way that suggested he'd cured himself, only about needing to monitor and second guess himself on an ongoing basis.

I want to repeat that I think that Truth faced himself very honestly. I'm not saying that he was perfect, or had overcome his narcissism, but he was trying to handle it, like the rest of us. I don't have a shrine at home dedicated to him, with imaginary pictures of him plastered over the walls! (You're safe, Truth! )

Après L Orage wrote:what is it that you expect from us then, guys from the public forum? Should we just take your word for it? Or would you prefer not being asked private questions?

The only thing that I've ever wanted from this forum is to identify with other narcissists, and in many ways, over the years, I've been able to do so, which has helped me a lot.

Most narcissists are more than happy to answer questions about themselves! Questions about nons' relationships are usually a different matter, unless they give us a chance to talk some more about ourselves!

Hi Bitty,

I really appreciate your answer to my last post. It made me reflect upon myself and the forum in general. I have some errands to run, but I'll get back to you in a little while.

My answer is gonna be twofold, I guess.

bitty wrote:I almost said in my last post that I was in a catch-22 situation here, because the more appreciation that I showed for Truth, the more I'd be seen to idealise him. And I know that he faced himself extremely honestly. I really don't think that supply from this forum meant a whole lot to him.

I'd say this is something I am somewhat convinced of: at a given time, he seemed to be doing his best to face himself honestly. While narrating his humbling experience as a cashier, he did sound like a guy who is trying to face himself. Stating that he was facing himself honestly sounds a bit hyperbolic to me, especially given the nature of the disorder.

But trying and facing oneself, which is an ongoing self-improvement process and which he did, and treating people elegantly are two different monsters. You might argue that he treated you elegantly, but I will argue that it was not everybody's case. Why did he feel threatened by and more competitive with a certain type of persons is something that I would love to hear from the mouth's horse? And that would, in my opinion, qualify as "facing oneself honestly".

I personally love Psychforums' format, I think that there is sense of balance that is delicate to maintain but worth being striven for. Lately, I have found the atmosphere slightly more breathable, as I believe that wall of texts had a tendency to pull the attention toward the poster and detract from the debate itself. Still, I think everybody should feel welcome, TTL included.

But I really appreciate your answer since it sounds sincere.

Après L Orage wrote:facing himself honestly sounds a bit hyperbolic to me, especially given the nature of the disorder.

What I also said was that Truth knew that he needed to monitor and second guess himself constantly; it is the nature of the disorder to slip back into those narcissistic patterns, and all that we narcissists can do is be aware that we're prone to slip, and watch out for it.

I hope that I'm not breaking any confidences here, but Truth and I did discuss the fact that, as a narcissist, you can never be fully sure of your motives, because you're aware of your tendancy to slip into distorted thinking patterns. He avoided giving himself the benefit of the doubt. Facing yourself honestly, and being aware of your faults, doesn't mean that they disappear, only that you know what you need to work on, as you said yourself, below.

Après L Orage wrote:But trying and facing oneself, which is an ongoing self-improvement process and which he did, and treating people elegantly are two different monsters. You might argue that he treated you elegantly, but I will argue that it was not everybody's case. Why did he feel threatened by and more competitive with a certain type of persons is something that I would love to hear from the mouth's horse? And that would, in my opinion, qualify as "facing oneself honestly".

I don't know who you mean, here, Après, and as you say, Truth's not here to defend himself. I'll have to leave it there, because it's way past my bedtime.

If you don't mind, I'd like to leave it at that. I don't mean that I don't want you to reply, but I'd rather not continue this discussion about Truth. As I've said, he helped me a lot, and I know that he helped other people as well, and I don't really feel all that comfortable in discussing him much more.

So, before my melatonin tablet takes full effect, I'll sign off here.

bitty wrote: So, before my melatonin tablet takes full effect, I'll sign off here.

Hey! I'm a melatonin junkie too! (And l-tryptophan, valerian, and kratom!)

bitty wrote:it is the nature of the disorder to slip back into those narcissistic patterns, and all that we narcissists can do is be aware that we're prone to slip, and watch out for it.

No but that's fine, it's ok to slip! Let me give you an example. You get into an argument with a pwNPD, the pwNPD gets all worked up, loses his/her calm, projects madly, insults you. That's a "slip". Silent treating you for the subsequent months is not a slip, it feels like an ongoing punishment. "Slipping" does not call into question the fact that one is facing oneself honestly. An ongoing issue such as the one described above might. And this is how things unfolded between TTL and me.

In TTL's case, from my point of view, there seemed to be an ongoing discrepancy between his willingness to talk about the disorder and his pervasive fear of being exposed. Now, an analysis of this discrepancy by TTL himself (the horse's mouth, not the mouth's horse, *giggles*) is something I would have loved to hear.

Hope I've been crystal clear.

bitty wrote:I'll have to leave it there, because it's way past my bedtime.

Sure, night night

"In TTL's case, from my point of view, there seemed to be an ongoing discrepancy between his willingness to talk about the disorder and his pervasive fear of being exposed."

TTL has talked plenty about NPD, as he views his disorder, just what do you mean by "pervasive fear of being exposed"?

I understand what Philonoe is saying, describing a narcissist who posts here as something of a hero. After all, it takes a lot for a narcissist to come to terms with what drives his behavior, not to mention how difficult it must be to try monitoring it on a daily basis, and it takes a lot of, shall I say, courage for one with self-esteem issues to even post here? That's exposure, for sure, with a great deal of trepidation behind it.

"Silent treating you for the subsequent months is not a slip, it feels like an ongoing punishment. "Slipping" does not call into question the fact that one is facing oneself honestly."

You seem to take offense at TTL's treatment of you. So what if TTL didn't treat you elegantly, gave you the silent treatment, etc... are you the first such person on this forum to have experienced that from him? I digress.

"I believe that wall of texts had a tendency to pull the attention toward the poster and detract from the debate itself. Still, I think everybody should feel welcome, TTL included."

Lol, you should scan the SOF&F forum, it's filled chock-a-block with walls and walls of text. I find your peevishness to be rather strange, given your "welcoming support" of even TTL, should he return to the forum.

Hey realityhere,

realityhere wrote:TTL has talked plenty about NPD, as he views his disorder, just what do you mean by "pervasive fear of being exposed"?

What I mean is that despite having little left to expose, TTL seemed deadly scared of being exposed, hence his treatment of people he felt threatened by.

realityhere wrote:I understand what Philonoe is saying, describing a narcissist who posts here as something of a hero. After all, it takes a lot for a narcissist to come to terms with what drives his behavior, not to mention how difficult it must be to try monitoring it on a daily basis, and it takes a lot of, shall I say, courage for one with self-esteem issues to even post here? That's exposure, for sure, with a great deal of trepidation behind it.

But I think we're agreeing here... It's an academic distinction really but I don't find the act of posting heroic, it's rather the content of a post that renders somebody vulnerable and thus heroic (or should I say brave?). There are many logical reasons why somebody would post without requiring courage: inquiries, suggestions to other members, theoretical clarifications...

realityhere wrote:You seem to take offense at TTL's treatment of you. So what if TTL didn't treat you elegantly, gave you the silent treatment, etc...

No, I don't take that kind of things personally. I just take it as indicative of the discrepancy between his guru-like persona and the guy behind the persona. My opinion is that he was just scratching the surface of his issues and that it was exhausting for him to maintain this façade. Ego-stroking might have helped him maintaining this façade up, but it was never gonna last. He's already been through this: he knows.

realityhere wrote:are you the first such person on this forum to have experienced that from him? I digress.

It's not the first time you're making this kind of comment? What do you mean? What is it that you want to say?

realityhere wrote:I find your peevishness to be rather strange, given your "welcoming support" of even TTL, should he return to the forum.

Nope, I'm sincere when I wish TTL's return. I just wish that he would relinquish a bit of his need for control for his own sake and for the forum's sake. It's not healthy for the forum to become a tribute to a single individual. In order for future pwNPD to feel equally welcome, the hierarchy has to remain flat, don't you think? This has nothing to do with me, I am just being protective of the values.

But if you got more stuffs to get out of your chest just shoot, because we might as well get it over with once and for all.

I have some suggestion for moderation :

It would be nice to put some order in the stickied topics, and maybe keep 2 or 3 like in the other forums? That would leave more space for discussions.

For example, we could keep

- definition, causes and treatments
- links (merged with books)
- maybe the questions from nons

I think the other informative ones could be merged with the first one (for instance NPD types being part of the definition)

What do you think?