Narcissism Hijacked - SLC interviews Vaknin

before realising i was an N (and while i was realising my parents were), i was on a Narcissistic abuse recovery page, looking back i was solely their for supply, though i believed i was simply their because my parents were N's and i was a victim, which i guess was true, though i was missing a vital part of the jigsaw.
Anyway, the way they referred to N's, as monsters, and the way every single person who posted (mostly the "my ex was a narc because he left me:(" ) automatically got the innocent angel victim treatment simply because they said the word narc made me think that these people are very narcissistic themselves, atleast having a tribal mind-set. I honestly believed then and now that lots of narcs who know about npd but dont know they have it make up the n recovery forums, and well it turned out im a narcissist and havent been back since, but yeah, if that added to anything, then cool

I'm reading Ross Rosenberg's book at the moment. He describes himself as a Codependant. However, I've not yet come across him describing himself as a Narcissist. Which he must be!

NimplyDinply wrote:Loved the video, watched the whole thing when I woke up with a cup of coffee and a bunch of cigarettes, lol.

I liked how Vaknin said his original goal had been to be the quintessential narcissist for victims to understand narcissism. That explains how/why his writings (like the 9-part essay I often refer to, which was one of his first works I believe) feel harsh to the newly-aware N.

It's ironic how an anti-N "movement" arose which hates him simply for being N. The very people he tried to serve (partially a result of his own seeking supply, but, nobody's perfect) use him as the poster-boy of transcendent evil and the battle of light vs "narkness." Because he's cast that way, Ns warn Ns about his apparent "usefulness to the other side."

It seems like he and SLC deliberately defined themselves. It would be interesting to know what led to this video. Something seemed to have been a "wake up" call.

I wonder what those in the anti-N movement are saying. They were basically told they're suffering from the same traits as the N (objectifying everyone around them as carriers of the evil force which the victim is prone to suffer from. A force that deliberately targeted them and they were helpless under its power.).

It's not like anything changed in SLC & Vaknin's message. It's just that the message expanded to treat those using SLC & Vaknin's message in a way that wasn't intended. That must leave the "activist" victim in an odd position.

I'm just not into the activism on either side. I think it leads exactly to this kind of "losing sight of the ball." I wouldn't be surprised if SLC & Vaknin would say they lost sight of their mission due to being responsive to their "audience," pursuing popularity, their domain.

It's like victims institutionalized their victimization (by casting narcissism as something more than it is, to make the victim's survival more than it is). SLC & Vaknin may have institutionalized their mission (from the content to market share).

SLC emailed SV last week and got a long and cryptic reply. I think that's what started the ball rolling.

Yeah I remember back when these forums at least the NPD and HPD forum were full of people who had been 'abused' by NPDs and it really irked me honestly. Some of it may be true but a lot of it seemed like just a way to pin problems on someone else. If you bite the hook you're partially responsible.

Anyways, as for the part about empathy I explain my own that I do have empathy in tact but it is very disconnected. I care about everyone in a vague way and that's really the only way I feel like i can care about people. I care about them like normal people care for starving children in Africa. It's sad, it sucks but then I la de dah and go about my day. Heck I can even shed a tear for a moment,but then I'm over it. It's just true and no amount of guilt I may feel is going to change the way my empathy works. Everyone might as well be those 'starving children in Africa' to me.

Most people have selfish empathy, meaning their empathy intensifies the more they know someone . It is self involved. I do have guilt over lack of empathy out of a sense of responsibility for people's wellbeing if I lead them on thinking I care about them the same way they care about me. But I don't think it's the same as the intense personal caring most people feel for others they know.

About a year ago I started a blog for victims of narcissistic abuse, as I had just come out of a marriage to a malignant narcissist who spent 20+ years emotionally abusing me, mostly through gaslighting and triangulation which included attempting to use the kids as flying monkeys (as a covert narcissist, we tend to become victimized and codependent to grandiose narcissists).

At first my attitude toward narcs was very much like those of many N-haters. I was angry and wanted to lash out at a class of people I saw as being as malignant as my ex and my MN mother who destroyed my sense of self when I was very young.

Over time, I began to feel increasingly uncomfortable with all the hatred I saw spewed toward narcissists and the generalization of them all being "evil." Eventually I worked up the courage to admit on my blog I had BPD, which is bad enough as far as some narc-haters are concerned, who believe all "Cluster B"s are evil and not to be trusted. I became interested in healing methods for narcissism and began to express my ambivalence. Some of my articles bashed narcissists, while others attempted to understand them. This proved to be controversial, and I got attacked by a group of N-hating bloggers for daring to suggest there was too much N-bashing in the narcissistic abuse community. I felt their reactions were actually very narcissistic and judgmental and said so.

I wasn't sure why I was no longer hating all narcissists and even feeling a sort of empathy for the few who approached me wanting help.

I didn't know it was because I was one myself (covert type) but now it's all so clear.
The Cluster B disorders, especially NPD, have been demonized to a point it's ridiculous . Yes, it's a bad disorder and malignant narcissists can be truly evil, especially if they're not self aware (and a malignant cannot become self aware, I don't think). But as a spectrum disorder, I don't believe all Ns have crossed that point of no return where they can never be healed or never become self aware and at least learn to control their narcissistic behaviors. I think those of us who want to change are at heart good people who are reacting to abuse that was inflicted on us. We are victims too, and that's what N-hating victims forget. In my opinion, the lack of empathy they have and the refusal to acknowledge not all narcissists are the same shows a lot of narcissism on their part. Maybe they are Ns themselves who are using their victimhood as a sort of identity. That's why they can't stop being victims or taking any responsibility for their own role in their miserable lives. I suspect people like this are Ns themselves who have not come to an awareness of that and probably never will. It's sad.

Taking into account that NPD runs anywhere from 1% to 5% of the population, depending on what research study you pick, most nons rarely encounter a person with true NPD and when a non does encounter such a person, they typically don't know jack about the disorder, period. I don't think nons in such situations see themselves as contributing N supply or being expected to reflect back as mirrors. They don't see that they're being expected to fulfill a certain role, what they do see is the abuse, behavior that is not normal or does not fit into the scheme of many relationships, be it marital/SO, parental, work colleague, friendship, etc.

It's when a non keeps prolonged contact with a pwNPD and develops victim language, then one has to question why the non keeps staying in the relationship. Such a person is getting something out of that relationship, and that's where co-dependency shows up in many forms, both PDs and other disorders. N-magnets is not an exaggeration.

It's my opinion that there has not been much constructive dialogue about the fact that both N victims and pwNPD are damaged. Both parties have been mythologized to death on the internet, a lot like "chinese whispers". Both parties paint each other black, pointing fingers at the other, but not at themselves (unawareness). The SLC-Vaknin interview is a small step in this direction.

VasVlad wrote:Someone who made a bad choice of friend or boyfriend\girlfriend? They're not responsible for that choice, because the other person is a narcissist and we all know manipulation is narcissists' superpower. It's not that the victim was influenced towards a choice that they themselves then made. It's as if narcissists COMPEL others and always necessarily towards something malicious.

The attitude is honestly disgusting. It's a combination of witch hunting, responsibility shifting and finding acceptable targets to hate.

I've been thinking about your post. I agree with your depiction. But, disgusting seems harsh.

Ns put on a very believable act. If you just try a little harder to meet my needs/expectations, things could be so good. Nons can be confused and hurt by what is a room full of mirrors. It's something counterfeit portrayed as genuine.

Some nons may have their own issues and turn that experience into their own issues. They may "live out" something with the N like the N lives out with them. They're more like the N than they wish to admit. If they proceed to use their experience with the N as explanatory of their own life, who they are. It just makes them as out of touch with reality as the N is.

If it's disgusting, then the N is disgusting too. It's a sad state of the person's sense of self. Maybe it rises to pathological. Maybe not. But, it's just as genuine and disordered as what the N lives with.

I've never been into the polar good/evil. I don't mind Ns calling hateful nons "evil." I don't mind those nons calling Ns "evil." (And then there are some Ns who believe they're "good."). Everyone's entitled to express themselves how they wish. But, I think those extremes don't lead to a more realistic view.

Truth too late wrote:

VasVlad wrote:Someone who made a bad choice of friend or boyfriend\girlfriend? They're not responsible for that choice, because the other person is a narcissist and we all know manipulation is narcissists' superpower. It's not that the victim was influenced towards a choice that they themselves then made. It's as if narcissists COMPEL others and always necessarily towards something malicious.

The attitude is honestly disgusting. It's a combination of witch hunting, responsibility shifting and finding acceptable targets to hate.

I've been thinking about your post. I agree with your depiction. But, disgusting seems harsh.

Ns put on a very believable act. If you just try a little harder to meet my needs/expectations, things could be so good. Nons can be confused and hurt by what is a room full of mirrors. It's something counterfeit portrayed as genuine.

Some nons may have their own issues and turn that experience into their own issues. They may "live out" something with the N like the N lives out with them. They're more like the N than they wish to admit. If they proceed to use their experience with the N as explanatory of their own life, who they are. It just makes them as out of touch with reality as the N is.

If it's disgusting, then the N is disgusting too. It's a sad state of the person's sense of self. Maybe it rises to pathological. Maybe not. But, it's just as genuine and disordered as what the N lives with.

I've never been into the polar good/evil. I don't mind Ns calling hateful nons "evil." I don't mind those nons calling Ns "evil." (And then there are some Ns who believe they're "good."). Everyone's entitled to express themselves how they wish. But, I think those extremes don't lead to a more realistic view.

I work with a lot of grays as well . I don't really think any group is all good or all evil- a lot of the times they are both. However, I may be going through current period where I am unsure if evil is actually something tangible or something people arbitrarily agree to based on what is best for a chosen majority. I also question the notion of responsibility currently- because if you fall prey to someone as a victim it is in a way your fault, though it is certainly NOT ALL your fault. But if you are decieved, you are the one who did not see through the act as convincing as it might be. On the other hand the deceiver is very much lying and presenting falsehoods and people can't make accurate decisions when they are not given the full information. Expecting them to be able to ,then blaming them for not seeing through the act is ridiculous. I think the real truth is it's probably both victim and perpetrators fault to varying degrees depending on the circumstances. I flip flop a lot so ask me later and i may say it is primarily the perpetrator's fault.

It is highly annoying though for someone to never take any account of their own selves being flawed for repeatedly suffering the abuse. I mean I know there are ways to manipulate people out of their own control , so maybe it's just a psychological phenomenon that Ns take advantage of and can't be helped by the victim. Maybe. Or maybe something is up with the person that makes them more prone to accepting this sort of abuse and they need to ask themselves 'why'?

I may have just gone down the rabbit hole on this one. V-v I really don't like victim blaming and I realize that part of what I am saying sounds a bit like on that side of things. I think entering a relationship with someone and investing in them emotionally and being randomly attacked/assaulted are a little different though .

JPKAS wrote:I think entering a relationship with someone and investing in them emotionally and being randomly attacked/assaulted are a little different though .

I agree. But, some people think it's "normal" to try harder. The "diamond in the rough." "Digging for gold" (as Travis Alexander wrote in his blog, before being murdered by Jodi Arias).

I mentioned in Fille's thread how I worked with a woman who was devoted to her mother. It was very abusive and it was like looking at myself, realizing what I'm capable of, and she's living that with her mother.

People can be "too good." It's a flaw. Maybe they have unrealistic views of relationships because we increasingly derive our sense of what's normal from TV. Maybe there's an underlying (subtle or not) disorder to sacrifice one self to a god.

Whatever it is, it doesn't seem any more "disgusting" than what an N does. I think seeing them as disgusting promotes them seeing us like that. We have our own teevees in our minds that we overlay on reality. Maybe they aren't that far. But, it's still something that can be improved through greater understanding.

That's a tough thing because part of a narcissist facing themself is having an appropriate level of disgust at the right time. I don't mind anyone saying this disorder is disgusting. It's not going to help unaware Ns identify. But, yes, when an unaware N figures it out, they'll have to face some level of disgust with themselves to differentiate the good and bad parts.

I suppose the merit-badge nons (victim occupation) would benefit from a moment of inner disgust too. I see both sides.