Narcissism has a cure

Truth too late wrote:

SamGabor wrote:Only chance to cure narcissism is at the time when the narcissist is still unable to consider him being totally wrong. When he is able, it is too late.

not bad but needs more cowbell

bitty wrote:

Truth too late wrote: How can I "play the game" of regrets/sorrows when I know I could do it again? I haven't changed. I'm just aware. (I hope I could recognize it now and take steps. But, it's still there. It's me.).

So, when I feel dysphoria coming on, I quickly get a mental image of the stereotypical murderer in prison saying "but I suffered a loss too." It turns into numb, isolated depression. I don't ruminate, I just know. There's nothing enjoyable about it. No soothing from languishing upon my monument. The silence isn't pleasant.

I responded to the italicized part by writing, "Exactly.", but I'm feeling guilty, because that implied that I related to all of it, rather than to the dysphoria that Lady described. But what I related to was the image of a murderer saying that they had suffered too. (Which means, for me, that I have no right to feel compassion for myself, or move on, or try to enjoy life, as I've described elsewhere. So I do relate to you writing that you don't remain dysphoric, but at the same time, I 'keep myself in jail.').

Yes, that's how I meant it. It has been hard to feel sorry for myself. I often think of that convicted murder who only considers himself a victim of his crime (being caught). Even if the murderer is sincere about how his behavior affected others, it just doesn't sound right to append "and look where I am, I'm a victim too." Even though it's literally true, it doesn't sound right. It implies the victims should identify with the person who made them a victim.

But, my point is: I think the dysphoric emotions (not depression generally, which the dysphoria may manifest or be executed within) is an unspoken way of doing the same thing. It's like punishment, trying to suffer like the victims. I think it elevates one's self to a higher level through the extracted feelings of worth (without these feelings, it's just numb/empty depression). It isn't acceptance, but continuation. I.e., imagine the criminal in jail every day regretting how he murdered someone. Is he regretting it because he lost his freedom? Or, that he took another's freedom?

Sure, it's healthy to be penitent. But, at some point it should be acceptance. I think continuing to be dysphoric is an indication it's not acceptance, but narrative-inspired belief in a different reality (that the past can be made to disappear; if I suffer enough someone will have pity; the future will be better if I regret the past enough). None of that is true. It's essentially an over-valuation of one's self, the power they have to change reality, to will it into existence through what seems like genuine feelings and sincerity.

It's a balancing act. Sorrow, regret, shame are necessary to affect change. "If we forget the past, we are doomed to repeat it." But, for me, those things can turn into an altar of sacrifice (dysphoric rumination). That's when it's not clear if I'm "re-using" the past (or creating false hopes for the future) for my own benefit, to "feel."

I'm going to reply to your other post about that. I was going to say a lot of the above there.

Also, I don't know if @lady3 is suffering dysphoria vs. depression. Or, if it's unhealthy (long-term, narrative-driven) dysphoria vs. healthy processing which should turn into healthy acceptance. I only replied to her post because I had recently identified the difference and thought this was a good opportunity to describe it.

Truth, I hope that my earlier post didn't sound antagonistic, it wasn't written in that mindset.

I think that your reply above is pretty much spot on. I do find it hard to feel sorry for myself, and I do think that putting myself 'mentally into jail' is a more sympathy inducing stance than allowing myself to free myself, under the banner of 'That's what happened, I don't really care about the person affected, so I'll free myself to be as happy as possible.'

Truth too late wrote:Sure, it's healthy to be penitent. But, at some point it should be acceptance. I think continuing to be dysphoric is an indication it's not acceptance, but narrative-inspired belief in a different reality (that the past can be made to disappear; if I suffer enough someone will have pity; the future will be better if I regret the past enough). None of that is true. It's essentially an over-valuation of one's self, the power they have to change reality, to will it into existence through what seems like genuine feelings and sincerity.

It's a balancing act. Sorrow, regret, shame are necessary to affect change. "If we forget the past, we are doomed to repeat it." But, for me, those things can turn into an altar of sacrifice (dysphoric rumination). That's when it's not clear if I'm "re-using" the past (or creating false hopes for the future) for my own benefit, to "feel."

Yes, that bolded bit sums it up pretty well. The only bit that I'd say is different for me is that I know that ruminating about the past isn't making me feel anything, it just feels wrong to move on from it.

Truth too late wrote:Also, I don't know if @lady3 is suffering dysphoria vs. depression. Or, if it's unhealthy (long-term, narrative-driven) dysphoria vs. healthy processing which should turn into healthy acceptance. I only replied to her post because I had recently identified the difference and thought this was a good opportunity to describe it.

Didn't you write somewhere that depression seems to be dysphoria without the emotions? If it's being left in an empty room, I think that it's possible to 'refurnish it' to some extent.

Perhaps Lady will post about how she's getting on. How are you doing, Lady?

bitty wrote:Truth, I hope that my earlier post didn't sound antagonistic, it wasn't written in that mindset.

I didn't think that about your reply. I hope nothing I said invalidated @lady3. I was planning on starting a thread, but when I read about self-pity here I thought it might fit.

bitty wrote:I think that your reply above is pretty much spot on. I do find it hard to feel sorry for myself, and I do think that putting myself 'mentally into jail' is a more sympathy inducing stance than allowing myself to free myself, under the banner of 'That's what happened, I don't really care about the person affected, so I'll free myself to be as happy as possible.'

I'm sure you didn't mean it this way, but I wouldn't advocate not caring. To me it seems like a different caring. What feels genuinely heart-felt (for me) can easily be self-soothing avoidance of "living and learning."

The dilemma is that "living and learning" is what I always did, oblivious to how I was living and not learning. I have a fundamental streak of "must learn!" So, the genuine feelings of remorse, etc., are necessary to develop a habitual (hopefully) awareness.

But, it also seems those feelings can be playing "reruns," getting supply from past treatment of others, past losses, a lost future, etc. That's when it seems like merely a different avenue to do what comes so easily (maladaptive views, the dreamworld, "me and my monkey").

Another way to put it: I always felt that those ruminating feelings proved I can feel -- "whatever else is wrong with me, I'm a sensitive person." But, now I'm leaning towards: "it proves I'm sensitive to myself (at the expense of others)." At some point, after proper remorse/shame/regret/sorrow, it starts to be self-soothing just to make myself feel. I'm not even sensitive to myself because now I believe I'm using the narrative to extract emotions from my TS when it wasn't (and especially isn't) the TS's fault. Being sensitive to myself should be mature acceptance of what I do, how I do it, how bad it can be (very bad) and being closer to my TS, not using it to extract endless misery about it.

(Although, as I said, the risk is definitely one of losing sight of how repulsive the disorder is, taking it too lightly. My point is that those regenerative dysphoric periods probably aren't what keeps "severity" in mind. I'm afraid it is an addiction to celebrating myself in some way, a reward for the severity, needing to keep it severe for my own existence.).

bitty wrote:

Truth too late wrote:Sure, it's healthy to be penitent. But, at some point it should be acceptance. I think continuing to be dysphoric is an indication it's not acceptance, but narrative-inspired belief in a different reality (that the past can be made to disappear; if I suffer enough someone will have pity; the future will be better if I regret the past enough). None of that is true. It's essentially an over-valuation of one's self, the power they have to change reality, to will it into existence through what seems like genuine feelings and sincerity.

It's a balancing act. Sorrow, regret, shame are necessary to affect change. "If we forget the past, we are doomed to repeat it." But, for me, those things can turn into an altar of sacrifice (dysphoric rumination). That's when it's not clear if I'm "re-using" the past (or creating false hopes for the future) for my own benefit, to "feel."

Yes, that bolded bit sums it up pretty well. The only bit that I'd say is different for me is that I know that ruminating about the past isn't making me feel anything, it just feels wrong to move on from it.

I know what you mean. But, if you shift your perspective a little, you can notice how you said it does make you feel.

What would you feel in the absence of "feeling wrong about moving on from the regret/remorse/loss/shame/sorrow?"

I think I've reached the point where, when I identify and eliminate the narrative-sources of the dysphoric feelings and choose to accept that they are valid regrets/hopes, but unrealistic and/or outside my control (i.e., me sacrificing myself on the alter of my TS) I feel almost nothing except "here and now." Just raw, numbing, empty reality, knowing how I got here, how absurd it is to feel like I can "feel it out of existence" when that's what I've done my entire life creating (and living within) a narrative.

That numb emptiness is my worst nightmare of existing. Yet, recognizing how the self-induced "feeling" (through narrative-inspired dysphoric feelings added to depression -- courtesy of the TS's bottomless-pit of feelings), it doesn't feel that bad. I feel more integrated to my TS just choosing not to beat on it with the dysphoric stick.

I could be wrong. But, this is how I'm seeing it since I chose to accept some hopes which drove my dysphoria aren't reasonable (that it's more reasonable to never give it a thought because I'm sure the other person has moved on and doesn't give it a thought either. My imagining they could is self-serving, holding them to a past that they don't wish to be.).

I think this realization may be related to when I had a significant reduction to what I now see was a dysphoric existence for 2 years (tearing myself down) and a life governed mostly by a rudimentary emotional template (simmering emotions which interpreted reality). When I realized something fundamental about why I do what I do (I project my mother without knowing it), I had no reason to feel about it. And, I was nervous for the first 2 weeks (and especially the first day or two) because, like you, I felt like I needed that burden of regret in order to prevent recurrences. I felt defenseless, not knowing where I'd go feeling what seemed like 80% less about anything.

It could be temporary. But, right now it seems like a continuation of that event.

For example, I posted a month or two ago about how I had what felt like a disassociative event. I had been considering the possibility my ex will never communicate to me again. I felt very dysphoric about that, and especially that I was afraid to ask her to tell me (or, recognition that she told me two years ago). The dysphoric feelings "folded away" in the same way they did when I realized that I project my mother. But, I heard the words "you were afraid to ask about your mother too." (A reference to the unspoken topic in my family. How I lived my life knowing I had to overcome something, but afraid to ask what exactly it was.). When that thought/phrase was heard and my feelings folded away, I had a very strong perception of being in the den of the home I lived in at age 6-7 (sights, smells). It was very perceptible. I think my "don't ask questions, just do what you have to" started then.

A couple weeks after that episode I was dysphoric about something else. I don't recall what (which makes me feel shallow because it must've been something significant). When it similarly "folded away" I heard the words "that's the best I can do." I had the distinct impression it was my TS. That's when I got the idea something unhealthy occurs in these "emotionally rough myself up" low-points. That's why, when I entered such a state recently, I explored what's happening, what I'm feeling, what happens if I choose to face reality (instead of than feel self-pity). What I feel like I learned is a continuation of what I've been learning: I'm afraid to exist in reality. Everything stems from that. Avoiding questions that could be final. Maintaining plausible deniability. Polishing cherished memories (that I didn't cherish when I should have, making them more than they were in reality).

Also, I wouldn't encourage anyone to "hear words." Both times above made me nervous because I've made a point of saying that the low-level schizophrenia (which I describe NPD as) doesn't include voices (just an active, imaginative self-talk that kind of oscillates between glibness and hash criticism). These two times, it was more than that. It was me (it didn't seem to emanate from someone else). But, it was a part of me I haven't heard from before.

Now that I'm thinking about it, I'd say the that voice is similar to when I would occasionally hear a "idiot!" or "you're stupid!" or "why would you do that!" The hypercritic that would shout at me like that occasionally. The voice/words had that short, emphatic and louder quality. But, not the condemning tone. Maybe I'm hearing from my TS instead of my FS now, I don't know.

bitty wrote:

Truth too late wrote:Also, I don't know if @lady3 is suffering dysphoria vs. depression. Or, if it's unhealthy (long-term, narrative-driven) dysphoria vs. healthy processing which should turn into healthy acceptance. I only replied to her post because I had recently identified the difference and thought this was a good opportunity to describe it.

Didn't you write somewhere that depression seems to be dysphoria without the emotions? If it's being left in an empty room, I think that it's possible to 'refurnish it' to some extent.

Perhaps Lady will post about how she's getting on. How are you doing, Lady?

Here I am. I love the supply of being worried about /mentioned when I'm not posting.

I'm okay. My housemate is moving on Tuesday, and today I was helping her pack and cleaning up the room to show to prospective replacements. I don't love doing this; it means interviewing and talking to people I don't know. It's also time consuming. So far only one person is acceptable--a gay man in his 50s. I'm using Craigslist--I know you have to be careful. But I lucked out with the last one.

My CN /BPD colors came out today, boo.

As I helped my housemate pack, I was snappish and irritated with her all day, hardly even speaking to her and when I did, barking things at her impatiently. She has hearing issues, and it was annoying me more than usual and I wasn't being mindful as I usually am. I had no idea why I was acting this way but I was aware I was, I just didn't care.

At one point, I guess just trying to make friendly conversation (because I sure wasn't having it), she said, "so I hear it's going to be a bad winter this year."

That was probably the worst thing she could have said. As a person with seasonal affective disorder who HATES winter with a passion, this triggered me and so I went off on her and called her stupid and ignorant for believing the stupid cliche (everyone says this same thing every year, even when the winter turns out to be mild--it drives me insane).
I also took it as a kind of insult. Becuase she's moving to Florida, I took it as a taunt: "Nyah, nyah, I'm going to be where it's warm and you'll be freezing your ass off. Haha!" Of course she wasn't doing this but I felt like she was. She could not have known the ways this ice-breaker triggered me and was only trying to be friendly, so after going off on her I realized what I'd done and apologized. I admitted I was stressed out about her moving out and having to get someone new. She thought I was mad at her, which is understandable (she always thinks everyone is mad at her though). But in a way she was right--I was mad at her.

I thought about why I'd been so meanspirited and cranky, and realized it was because I don't want her to leave! Even though we're never going to be BFFs, she's been reliable and trustworthy and I have no idea if the next person will be as reliable and trustworthy as she's been.
And a part of me feels like she's abandoning me (even though I know that's illogical and that's not it at all) -- I guess her leaving triggered all my abandonment issues.

I've missed it here.

Truth, I hope that you don't mind, but I'm going to reply to you in my 'unwanted presents' thread, so that everything's in one place. (I know that I started it, talking about the same thing in two different threads.)

Ladywith3cats wrote:Here I am. I love the supply of being worried about /mentioned when I'm not posting. .

Hello! I'm really sorry, but I've just got to say that I'm on a public computer again, and there's a woman sitting behind me, not facing in the opposite direction, and using a computer, but facing the same way as me, so that she can see my screen! She's slightly to the side of me, and not looking at my screen, but I just need to smash her head in with a brick........aah! That's better............... Anyway, welcome back! What were you saying about being irritable?!

I really appreciate you posting stuff like this -

Ladywith3cats wrote:As I helped my housemate pack, I was snappish and irritated with her all day, hardly even speaking to her and when I did, barking things at her impatiently. She has hearing issues, and it was annoying me more than usual and I wasn't being mindful as I usually am. I had no idea why I was acting this way but I was aware I was, I just didn't care. At one point, I guess just trying to make friendly conversation (because I sure wasn't having it), she said, "so I hear it's going to be a bad winter this year."

That was probably the worst thing she could have said. As a person with seasonal affective disorder who HATES winter with a passion, this triggered me and so I went off on her and called her stupid and ignorant for believing the stupid cliche (everyone says this same thing every year, even when the winter turns out to be mild--it drives me insane).
I also took it as a kind of insult. Becuase she's moving to Florida, I took it as a taunt: "Nyah, nyah, I'm going to be where it's warm and you'll be freezing your ass off. Haha!" Of course she wasn't doing this but I felt like she was. She could not have known the ways this ice-breaker triggered me and was only trying to be friendly, so after going off on her I realized what I'd done and apologized. I admitted I was stressed out about her moving out and having to get someone new. She thought I was mad at her, which is understandable (she always thinks everyone is mad at her though). But in a way she was right--I was mad at her.

I mean it, things like this help me a lot. I know the feeling of underlying tension and temper, so that every interaction with someone is an effort. And it's horrible when you know you're being irritable with this lovely, considerate, friendly person, who is just making you feel worse. And they keep trying to break through to you, because they don't know why you're snappy, instead of backing off and leaving well alone. Before becoming self aware, I'd have just remained mad with the person. Now, like you, I realize what I've done and apologize. It's a pain in the bum, that I'm always in the wrong.