Making connections

Truth Too Late,

Thank you for sharing. I react on some sentences… although my thoughts might be not very clear .

Truth Too Late wrote:Now the weird stuff.

Is it normal to take two weeks to make the connection I made? When I realized I treated my ex the way my mother treated me (when I was an infant/young child), why did it take two weeks for me to realize I affected my ex in the same areas as my core fears (which come from how my mother treated me)?

You know : I had exactly the same thoughts (from the other side of the rope) about some guy some time ago. I mean : exactly.
Does that make sense to think that you treated her the way you were treated ? Or is it that, as a child, you learned to despise own needs and then you can’t respect her need for you ?



This

She told me how I hurt her during those months, and how she needed me badly then.

moved me.
Do you think somehow you expected until she didn’t need you anymore, to come back ?

And then I realize she was one of a million and I never knew it.

Her nature (character, traits, whatever) allowed for the perfect storm for me to face myself. I never valued that nature because I was wrapped up in myself. I showed that nature the mother who warped me. I tortured that nature with the things I feared most. And I used that nature as my psychologist.

So you say somehow she was on your way for something. Now my question is : do you know in which internal journey she was to enter in that relationship with you ?

(not asking anything personal – just trying to understand her side)

Philonoe wrote:Does that make sense to think that you treated her the way you were treated ? Or is it that, as a child, you learned to despise own needs and then you can’t respect her need for you ?

That makes perfect sense. That's part of what was so unreal about the moment it came to me: It all makes such perfect sense -- why didn't I see it two weeks go when the first part of that reasoning process began? Or, two years ago when I shattered?

We always hear "our childhood affects us in ways we can't see." I always nodded in agreement, but never understood how real that is until two nights ago. I thought it was some made-up excuse for bad behavior. "My mommy spanked me too hard in public. That's why I murdered 20 people."

But, two nights ago it became real. It was amazing how the moment I realized how I treated my ex-, how it goes back to the source, (the final "connecting the dots") and all the feelings I'd felt for two years went away.

It was weird how that should have evoked a strong emotional reaction about my ex, -- what I thought was empathy for how I treated her. But, it didn't. Which caused me to realize [surprisingly quickly] what I felt for two years wasn't sorrow for what I did to her. It was narcissistic injury for what I was doing to myself, digging into things.

And, it was weird how I realized within hours how all those "updates" I sent to her for two years were therapy to me. I wasn't trying to prove to her how I felt it (what I did to her).

And then the paradox of thinking I was feeling something for her -- when I was continuing to use her for my needs (therapy).

And the paradox that now that I realize it, I feel nothing for her -- relative to the intensity of what I felt for myself (which I thought was feeling for her.).

This entire two-year experience has been paradoxical (bitterly ironic) like this. I've often referred to it as playing a song backwards. I feel insane, yet I understand everything.

Another paradox: when I realized how my contact to her had been therapy to me. I realized how six weeks on this forum had been therapy too. I think that's why I contacted the last living person, thinking I'd have something interesting to talk about here. I don't think I would have done it without having started posting here.

I didn't realize how important honest talking is. I'd done most of this alone, with occasional bursts of talking to my ex as "updates to help her." Filleting myself so she'd know there was sorrow for how I treated her.

Another paradox: The person I contacted was my step-mother whom I hadn't spoken to for 25 years -- along with my now-passed father.

I intended to contact (now I realize: hoover) my ex- before she met her boyfriend. I was delayed because I received an overnight Fedex from a cousin I hadn't spoken to for 25 years, telling me my father was passing away and he wanted to talk to me after 25 years.

I struggled for six weeks with that. I had assumed since none of us contacted each other, I'd never hear when he'd die. I assumed already had died (because he was a chain smoker) and nobody told me, which would have been fine according to my narrative.

After six weeks I accepted I couldn't attend what would have been a family gathering, explaining the last 25 years, my empire of sh*t (as the NiN song "Hurt" says). I couldn't explain it to myself.

And then I contrived a meeting with my ex- at the supermarket ("stalking" is such an ugly word), and she told me what she told me. I only intended to "hoover" her. The fact that she had a boyfriend didn't bother me too much. But, when she told me what she did, and my narrative (months of pulling away, months of no contact after she left, imagining she would come round to my value to her)....

I swear to god it was like a sledge hammer going through my mind. And she was in the perfect place to resist what would would become intense attempts to hoover her (intensity corresponding to the narcissistic injury I was suffering).

If she hadn't had a boyfriend, if I'd not been delayed with something that already posed the perplexing question about how my life turned out like it did, I might have hoovered her and I wouldn't have undergone what I did.

I could go on and on with these connections. There's so many I get dizzy thinking about it.

These all came to me two nights ago. I already had seen most. I could point to most individually. It's just that they came together in a way I hadn't seen, and it all had to do with how my core fear (which I thought for decades was fear of abandonment/rejection, but was security/stability/control) was due to my mother when I was 0-5. I'd grappled all this time with why I had treated my ex the way I had. I thought I felt pain for how I was seeing how I treated her. But, I wasn't seeing anything except my own grief for myself getting to what I realized two nights ago.

It's remarkable how the human brain works. I had no idea. That's how I feel now. The odd peace. I don't see why it took two years, or two weeks just to make that last final connection I described (big thing to big thing.). I know it's just how my mind had to do it. Maybe that's how painful whatever it was from my infancy.

Philonoe wrote:

Truth Too Late wrote:She told me how I hurt her during those months, and how she needed me badly then.

This moved me. Do you think somehow you expected until she didn’t need you anymore, to come back ?

Absolutely I expected that. That was my narrative. And that's why she did something for me I can't imagine anyone else doing (among all the other things). She stayed longer than anyone would, without drama like everyone else would, and then gave me honest feedback (untainted with anger or getting even) unlike anyone could.

I don't know how to process that now. For two years I thought I was feeling pain for how I hurt her. Now I realize I wasn't. Now I realize I didn't have a clue what value she added to my life. I don't know how to feel. If the pain I felt in the past had been a genuine feeling for her, I'd feel that 20 times stronger (which I don't think I could tolerate, which adds to how petty my narcissistic injury was for 2 years).

Ugh. It's like all the mirrors are turned against each other. Those are the ironies I see. They don't involve me anymore. They're reality.

Philonoe wrote:

Truth Too Late wrote:And then I realize she was one of a million and I never knew it.
Her nature (character, traits, whatever) allowed for the perfect storm for me to face myself. I never valued that nature because I was wrapped up in myself. I showed that nature the mother who warped me. I tortured that nature with the things I feared most. And I used that nature as my psychologist.

So you say somehow she was on your way for something. Now my question is : do you know in which internal journey she was to enter in that relationship with you ?

(not asking anything personal – just trying to understand her side)

Why not? I've got nothing else to hide.

She struggles with her own issues. I convinced her I would be her stability and source of supply, that I wanted to be that to her, to help her find herself. I was rescuing her from a situation. She deserved better and I could provide it.

I quickly became me. Abandoning her, not thinking about how I was affecting her stability, causing her to have to choose to leave me, make the decision she couldn't make for herself (when I encouraged her to do it coming to me), move by herself after I helped her move. I removed security, stability, supply. The things I told her I had the most to offer.

I'm surprised I'm explaining that because I have heretofore seen myself as a monster because of it. It's the thing I'm least proud of in my life. But, I understand why now. I don't think I can honestly explain the why without honestly explaining how I learned why.

To Bitty, Easy, Dan. Thank you for your replies. I will post more as my thoughts come together. Your earlier posts helped.

An hour after posting, my false-self was like, "Retard! Why didn't you consider how you'd feel as people read War and Peace!"

Five hours after:

Hey, that's enuf vulnerability for one day, ok? Lol.

Seriously, it's ok. It's something you gotta work out of your system, I think a lot of folks on the NPD forum will understand, if not me.

Taking time for things to connect is normal, its a 'processing' period, between when info comes in and when a realisation occurs.
Its the "ahah moment'.
When people have these and feel different, sometimes only last a short time, kinda like the tide coming in... it comes forward... then slides back, but each time it comes forward again it progresses a little more.
With the ex partner, well, she was hurt, but its impossible to get supported from hurts when the other person is hurting themselves or has unresolved problems.

With feeling bad finding out the other person needed you, sounds like remorse. Remorse isn't a lovey dovey feeling but one where YOU hurt. It doesn't matter if you feel bad for yourself or the other person, its really the same thing, the result is its not comfortable for you to treat others in certain ways.

Its never too late, and the 'truth' is an ever changing thing.
When you find a truth, often it is superceded by another 'truth'. The waves coming in that bit further everytime.

Good post TTL.

bitty wrote:But you seem to have progressed well beyond that. It sounds as though you've faced the space inside yourself, and been able to step away from your narcissism.

Maybe that is what's unusual about this. I don't know how Ns typically figure it out. Mine came from a massive shattering, then groping around figuring it out by myself for 2 years. Maybe that's why it's felt like a "song playing backwards." I literally felt like I backed into it.

bitty wrote:Truth, so have I got this right? You completely realised and appreciated all that your ex had done for you, and enabled you to do for yourself, but in the same moment you also realised that you didn't care about her, and couldn't feel her emotional pain, only your own? (No judgement there at all.)

Yes. I would word it a little differently. I ruminated in shame and sorrow for two years. As my awareness increased, events would come to mind and I'd realize how [what I knew about myself at that time] applied. I intermittently expressed to her my growing shame, sorrow and awareness to hopefully help her feel better. I don't think she is the type to do or say to me what I deserved.

So, looking back on it, it was like I was doing it for her. I didn't realize I was, it seems like it now.

Anyway, it's not like I've had a sudden realization. I knew a lot. But, somehow it all came together the moment I stopped to think about how my understanding of my core fears (which I thought was merely "abandonment") evolved into specifics, and then I realized how they related to how my mother treated me -- and that I've treated others that way (it's the root of how I express my traits to win people to me, and reject them).

Just putting that together, the pain I'd been feeling stopped and I could think more clearly. It was like suddenly things I knew fell into place. I realized that I'd been feeling narcissistic injury, not merely shame and sorrow. The intensity was directly proportional to the ego (defense mechanisms) I had which led to this mess.

I suddenly realized talking about it had been instrumental to seeing this (coming to this forum had helped a lot -- compared to two years of me talking to myself).

Then I realized all those expressions of narcissism injury to her were "therapy sessions."

It was weird how it all came together, I could think about things that had been too painful to think about when I was doing it for her -- and suddenly I had no idea what I should feel for her. Her valuation had suddenly gone way up when I realized I'd been using her for therapy. (I'd already realized the bitter irony that she conducted herself 100% perfectly with me to cause me to see myself -- unlike anyone one else could. The irony of hurting someone -- you're that lucky to have in your life.). And then, I'm seeing stuff I hadn't even realized because I was too busy feeling for myself as I tore everything down.

I always wondered what the "--" punctuation symbol is for -- I think I just realized. It's like an irony pause.

It was scary at first because I felt ashamed for taking so much from her (ashamed in the normal sense, not the narcissistic injury sense). How all that time I thought I was feeling something intense for her when I wasn't. It was like, "what am I supposed to feel now?"

I think it explains why my emotions always felt like a pot ready to boil over. I think what I felt the past two years was something I needed to get out of me -- and she did it.

I think I have empathy. I think I'm able to accurately value her, and feel normal regret and sorrow. I don't think I was able to do that because I was wrapped up in what was happening to me.

But, it's still perplexing. For example, I regret losing her because of what I know now -- not because of what I was feeling for myself. But, then I wonder if it's still not narcissistic: am I replaying her in my mind, finding more value in her, to give me more value? (You know what I mean? "Oh! She was 100 times more valuable than I thought! And she did good things for me! Yummm. That was some good supply!").

I don't know what's a mirror anymore. It's like my narcissistic ego is broken. I don't feel injury. I know what I do. The acting-in BPD-like emotions I felt are tranquil. But, as soon as I form what seems like a rational, non-narcisistic thought -- I start looking at it from different angles, analyzing it, not trusting it.

I felt good about knowing what's wrong with me, having some mastery over my traits (interacting with people, knowing what's me, having my own boundaries). But, in terms of values (what's a genuine emotion for another), I don't know. I used to base them on emotions and I don't feel them.

I think this is Vaknin'esque. I keep going back to that block of text I've posted a few times, which was my first "code" (reference to the series Dexter). Sam said to turn outward and heal relationships, not inward to heal the psyche. I think what I said above is an example of that. I can't know my thoughts without interacting with others, receiving validation from them. In other words, focusing outward, healing how I interact. From that would come the ability to judge how/why I value someone?

bitty wrote:Your experience sounds like a very good thing for you, and something for you to build on.

I feel good about what happened a few days ago. I feel much more content with who I am. Maybe all I'll be is a content schizoid. That will be immensely better than the old, bitter narcissist I saw in the supermarket. (I literally almost cried the last time I saw him, knowing what drives his mind. All his life he should have been someone else. And he's getting more angry and spiteful as his body and mind give out. Taking it out on everyone for reminding him of it. He'll die thinking he should have been someone else.).

If all I do for the next 25 years is play video games, smoke dope and act like a 12 year old on an internet forum, I'll be perfectly happy with that. It could have been so much worse.

Some more questions - trying to understand or projecting myself a little

Truth Too Late wrote:Truth Too Late wrote:She told me how I hurt her during those months, and how she needed me badly then.

Philonoe wrote:This moved me. Do you think somehow you expected until she didn’t need you anymore, to come back ?

Absolutely I expected that. That was my narrative.

I didn’t undersand that. You say that you acted some way while you explained to yourself your acts an other way? Is this what you calls your narrative?

And that's why she did something for me I can't imagine anyone else doing (among all the other things). She stayed longer than anyone would, without drama like everyone else would,

Didn't she express own needs at that time?

and then gave me honest feedback (untainted with anger or getting even) unlike anyone could.

That sounds good thing

She struggles with her own issues. I convinced her I would be her stability and source of supply, that I wanted to be that to her, to help her find herself. I was rescuing her from a situation. She deserved better and I could provide it.

Is it possible that the deep internal need that you both had resonated and that was part of the attraction? She hoped you could help her have her meets met and you hoped she could help you have your meets met?

I quickly became me. Abandoning her, not thinking about how I was affecting her stability

Then the things kind of reverted ? Instead of giving her stability you provoked instability for her, then for yourself? As if both’s neediness resonated the wrong way at that time, something like that?

Truth, you wrote that you're finding it difficult to know how to value your ex, because your emotions are blunted, so you can't use them as a basis.

Perhaps, for now, it would be best to just carry on doing what you're doing, which is to focus on how the other person is feeling, rather than how you value them? Thinking about what someone means to you might trip you up, and prevent you from enjoying the moment in their company, perhaps.

Truth too late wrote:I can't know my thoughts without interacting with others, receiving validation from them. In other words, focusing outward, healing how I interact. From that would come the ability to judge how/why I value someone?

That sounds good. It might still be difficult to analyse why you value someone at first, but you'd know who you did and who you didn't, and maybe you could just enjoy that in itself, before you figured it out.

Truth too late wrote:I feel good about what happened a few days ago. I feel much more content with who I am. Maybe all I'll be is a content schizoid.

Yes, I think that I'd be happy with that, too. It's good that you're feeling more content.

P.s. - I liked what you wrote in another post about how you used to panic when you couldn't 'meet someone halfway' emotionally, if they had a problem, but now it feels more honest to just listen, then be kind, and say something helpful, rather than fall over yourself to demonstrate that you're empathising. I think that I've tried that a few times, and it's just more relaxing, isn't it, and it allows you to focus more on the other person.

Truth too late wrote:
" I can't know my thoughts without interacting with others, receiving validation from them. In other words, focusing outward, healing how I interact. From that would come the ability to judge how/why I value someone?"

Bitty said:
"That sounds good. It might still be difficult to analyse why you value someone at first, but you'd know who you did and who you didn't, and maybe you could just enjoy that in itself, before you figured it out."

interesting point in this discussion. This validation/valuation thing is a curiously very common phenomenon on the NPD forum. I realize that black-and-white thinking is often typical for pwNPD, that is, ppl are painted black or white depending on how they reflect back to a pwNPD.

Correct me if I'm wrong here, but one has to validate the N's view of himself before he can be "valued" as white (good). Well, no one can keep up that good state forever, uh-uh. So, here comes the devaluation. Nons don't do that to other ppl, and I suppose it has to do with not judging ppl so harshly. It's part of the human condition that ppl will have problems, who are we to judge when we have problems as well? Hey, not saying that nons don't have problems, they do when it comes to that up/down idealization/ devaluation when in a relationship with a N (among other things in their lives)-- they're the ones wondering WT^ and they are the ones being judged when they themselves didn't do any judging to begin with. Just sayin'.

(Truth, forgive me for butting in here.)

realityhere, when Truth wrote about 'valuing' someone, I took him to mean that, because he couldn't feel emotions towards another person, he was using the word ' value' instead of 'like' or 'love', to show how someone held meaning for him. At least, that's how I responded to him.

When Truth wrote about 'receiving validation' from others, I thought that he was acknowledging the fact that that's an unavoidable way that we narcissists relate to others.

Sorry again, Truth! I've probably got the wrong end of the stick anyway. I just wanted to explain the understanding that I'd got of your words, and that I'd replied to you with that understanding.

I'll butt out again here.

easyfromhere wrote:With feeling bad finding out the other person needed you, sounds like remorse. Remorse isn't a lovey dovey feeling but one where YOU hurt. It doesn't matter if you feel bad for yourself or the other person, its really the same thing, the result is its not comfortable for you to treat others in certain ways.

I've been thinking about that. I guess you're right. When a non hurts another and feels bad about it, it's a self-correction. Mine was more like a demolition. So, I guess it was genuine that way.

But, it's still hard to weigh my motives now. For example, as I appreciate her without the remorse/guilt/shame I was feeling, I don't know if I'm doing a sequel. Maybe I'm increasing the narcissistic supply I got from her by increasing her value above what I initially ascribed.

I don't want to give the impression my mind works that deviously. But, I've read this is the way of an N. I can see how it could be possible. So... I find myself not knowing what's authentic and what's a mirror.

realityhere wrote:Nons don't do that to other ppl, and I suppose it has to do with not judging ppl so harshly. It's part of the human condition that ppl will have problems, who are we to judge when we have problems as well?

Thanks for your replies! However, something about the word "judging" bothers me. I can see why it looks like judging to a non.

To me, it's more like frustration with not being able to get the other person to value me as I should be. Or, that they present little supply value due to not fitting into my narrative. Maybe they're handicapped. Some of us talked about that before. (I'm saving myself from evil stares. It wasn't just me!).

What I'm describing isn't prettier than "judging." It's just that judging seems petty. What an N is creating inside is important (to the N). Judging implies guilt. This is more about straight-up availability of supply (the quality of the mirror, it's reflectivity). We're judging ourselves through you. We're hoping around like a pick-up artist. There's no more to it than that.

I guess I don't want to be seen as the guy who gets elected to the Neighborhood Association and then begins applying the rules meticulously.... oh, wait... I guess I'm that guy too.

But, I'm really much more than that! It's because you guys don't mirror back my wonderfulness that I take it out on your underwatered lawn, and the car overhanging the sidewalk by 2". Oh, never mind.