A Quick Hello From One Who Has Healed

From my 20 or so years of personal experience with Christianity and 5 or so years with Buddhism my perspective is that all religions are ultimately narcissistic and regressive; narcissistic because you believe that you are special or specialer than others (my god is the right one, we are the chosen people etc) and regressive because ultimately the goal is to go back to that omnipotent father/mother that solves all your problems.

-- Mon May 25, 2015 8:10 am --

TheLord wrote:There was a thread started by Violet some time ago where she told us how "simple" it was! You see when she has some kind of solution, she addressed that to masses, it was very simple and a solution that will work for everyone but when OP shared his cure, then he was told that he was coming off as a messiah, addressing to the masses blah blah blah.

Instead of being annoyed by it why don't you explain in detail why his "cure" would work at all?
Because as I see it Narcissism is - just like Schizoid and Borderline - an ego-deficit. So a further reduction of ego will logically lead to a reduction in ego-functions (reality-testing f.e.), which translates to ego-weakness which is per definition psychosis.

Akuma wrote:Because as I see it Narcissism is - just like Schizoid and Borderline - an ego-deficit. So a further reduction of ego will logically lead to a reduction in ego-functions (reality-testing f.e.), which translates to ego-weakness which is per definition psychosis.

I saw an entry on his blog which I thought addressed that. It asked how living a 9-to-6 life, commuting an hour each way, etc. is more enriching than being engaged in life (as he feels he is, actually helping people)? In other words, how do we test reality? Why are the values applied to the choice to live 9-to-6 more valid than the values he believes he acquired through spiritual meditation?

I agree that someone with N traits should be aware of how they would be inclined to use spirituality as a mirror to meet their peculiar needs. But, they could do that with a 9-to-6 life as well (I know because I did.). I think it's more about "all things in moderation." A balance of values, of which I think spirituality can contribute like any other aspect of life.

This is a thought provoking discussion. I'm not trying to be argumentative or one-up anyone.

Akuma wrote:From my 20 or so years of personal experience with Christianity and 5 or so years with Buddhism my perspective is that all religions are ultimately narcissistic and regressive; narcissistic because you believe that you are special or specialer than others (my god is the right one, we are the chosen people etc) and regressive because ultimately the goal is to go back to that omnipotent father/mother that solves all your problems.

-- Mon May 25, 2015 8:10 am --

TheLord wrote:There was a thread started by Violet some time ago where she told us how "simple" it was! You see when she has some kind of solution, she addressed that to masses, it was very simple and a solution that will work for everyone but when OP shared his cure, then he was told that he was coming off as a messiah, addressing to the masses blah blah blah.

Instead of being annoyed by it why don't you explain in detail why his "cure" would work at all?
Because as I see it Narcissism is - just like Schizoid and Borderline - an ego-deficit. So a further reduction of ego will logically lead to a reduction in ego-functions (reality-testing f.e.), which translates to ego-weakness which is per definition psychosis.

I don't know if I am coming off as 'annoyed' but I know for sure that you definetely are coming off as 'annoyed' by my post.

Truth too late wrote:

Akuma wrote:Because as I see it Narcissism is - just like Schizoid and Borderline - an ego-deficit. So a further reduction of ego will logically lead to a reduction in ego-functions (reality-testing f.e.), which translates to ego-weakness which is per definition psychosis.

I saw an entry on his blog which I thought addressed that. It asked how living a 9-to-6 life, commuting an hour each way, etc. is more enriching than being engaged in life (as he feels he is, actually helping people)? In other words, how do we test reality? Why are the values applied to the choice to live 9-to-6 more valid than the values he believes he acquired through spiritual meditation?

I was using the term in a psychoanalytically oriented manner, meaning what is real and what is just imagined or what is real and what is projected. Most people that I've met on my religious journeys didn't really [want to] test the reality of their beliefs. Some feel the warmth of their hands and are suddenly convinced energy streams forth of them, some find a pair of shoes thats on sale and are convinced Jesus showed them those shows, heck I even knew someone who was convinced he has a dragon from the astral plane as a pet. These are all instances where the reality-testing function of the ego is impaired, be it by attributing a cause-effect relationship where there is none or simply by letting your fantasy life run rampant.

I agree that someone with N traits should be aware of how they would be inclined to use spirituality as a mirror to meet their peculiar needs. But, they could do that with a 9-to-6 life as well (I know because I did.). I think it's more about "all things in moderation." A balance of values, of which I think spirituality can contribute like any other aspect of life.

This is a thought provoking discussion. I'm not trying to be argumentative or one-up anyone.

It's probably my disillusionment that makes me jump to the opposite side here. I find "spirituality" is a farce and totally unnecessary, just like religion. It's totally enough to be educated and have a healthy upbringing to be a good person and a helpful part of society, no gods or dragons needed.

So, let me tell you this about me, I don't think most people who are religious or believe in God actually do.

My father who didn't give me any money when I needed the most in my life for my health treatment, when I was almost like about to die, gives a lot of donation in the name of God.

In fact my families 60 percent, yes 60 percent ( belive if you wanna. Believe, reject if you wanna) goes towards charity in the name of God but they never had any money for my health treatment, never.

Most religious and spiritual people I have met happened to be NPDs. But that does not mean spirituality is not real.

I really hope from the bottom of my heart that one day, one day, really, everybody finds peace.

TheLord wrote:There was a thread started by Violet some time ago where she told us how "simple" it was! You see when she has some kind of solution, she addressed that to masses, it was very simple and a solution that will work for everyone but when OP shared his cure, then he was told that he was coming off as a messiah, addressing to the masses blah blah blah.

That thread was an on-line broadcast of a pure pain. I wasn't even able to respond to it any more.

Some people understood.
You didn't.

You are twisting my words in the most annoying ways. I see it as emotional abuse. There is so much of your father in you. Until you understand that and forgive you will remain stuck. All this on-line blah blah won't help you. Only facing and leaving your own pain.

Go take a f. nap.
And than re-read the thread whenever in life you are ready to understand.

Here is the thread.
For your convenience (yes, I feel truly annoyed).
narcissistic-personality/topic160523.html

"This is what I have been trying to tell all this while and actually much more but it usually falls on deaf ears."

That's TheLord's reply under that link, Violet. He understands alright.

TheLord, you wrote that Violet was rejecting the OP's attempt to share his idea of how to heal, and went on to say the following,

TheLord wrote:..........All the genuine efforts of the girl on the mission will be wasted if everyone starts saying this to her. This is called resistence by the people with Personality Disorder for any kind of solution, treatment, cure to the problem. This is the very reason many hate their therapists, call their therapists arrogant, not knowledgeable, and that NPDs know more than their therapist, and that they were able to fool the therapists so, how can the therapist be better knowing than them etc.

And this is why many therapists are not interested in treating NPDs and this is why many NPDs come here complaining that while there are so many support places for the N victims, but not for the NPDs.

I hope I explained this in an inoffensive manner, because offending others was not my purpose but rather bing able to tell what I have observed so far.

I would think that Violet is far from alone in not finding the OP's post a source of help. It didn't help me, although I join Violet in wishing the OP well, and thanking him for his post. This is not the same as someone rejecting an idea that is not their's. Your comments, above, about narcissists, their resistance to solutions, and their attitudes towards their therapists, were therefore irrelevant.

The attitude that you described, of narcissists being resistant to help, does not explain, as you think it does, why there are almost no support places for them. The narcissists who complain of this are, by definition, self aware, and looking for others who can relate to them and offer support. I like to think that ideas are mine, but I've still found this forum extremely helpful and supportive, and don't reject suggestions out of hand; far from it.

TheLord wrote:The problem is that self awareness is just one thing, but being able to not fall into the same lifetime of pattern is another. You can find plenty of examples here people who are aware of their disorders, aware of what they did all their life and still when the situation arrises they react the same way..

I think that many narcissists here, having become aware of their disorder, have changed how they behave. They may have the same instincts, and gut reactions to things, but I think that many of us try to monitor and change how we behave, and I also think that some genuine change happens inside as well. I'm no angel, but I do treat people better than I used to, at least some of the time.

Violet spoke, in the thread that you mentioned, of finally finding understanding and forgiveness. For people wounded by their parents, that is indeed a big step towards healing.

It's very late, so I'll finish there.

Akuma wrote:Most people that I've met on my religious journeys didn't really [want to] test the reality of their beliefs.

You make a lot of good points. I've seen excesses too (including my own). But, must everything be non-falsifiable in order to be believed or helpful?

For example, I personally witnessed a dog experiencing a sixth sense, knowing something without seeing it (the passing of his pack mate). I can't prove how that happened. It was something beyond physical processes subject to reality testing. It's not something I heard, embellished by someone else. I saw it with my own eyes.

It could be that such things are simply a physical reality we haven't discovered yet.

When I consider how 90% of human knowledge was acquired in the past 100 years, I'm more inclined to humbly contemplate what I don't know rather than engage in "regularity chauvinism" about what I do know. That is driven home when I consider how scientists are close to developing quantum computing which will solve problems in 10 minutes that would take a million years using today's computers. Who knows what they'll discover when they turn that on. Especially when they believe the power of quantum computing comes from using parallel universes to perform calculations(!)

To me, it moderates my narcissistic mindset to consider how I don't know everything.

I agree that the intolerant, dogmatic, exclusive religiosity may contribute to narcissism. ("I'm connected to the Big Guy. I'm special. I must kill those who spread false doctrines in order to save the souls of other special people."). But, I don't get that the OP is doing that. He could be using his spirituality as a substitution for real, vulnerable, one-on-one relationships. I guess I could do the same thing when I contemplate the Large-Scale Structure of the universe.

But, either of those activities are subordinating as well because they acknowledge my (and his) insignificance in the scheme of things. It can even be relaxing to realize I can't know everything. That I'm not in control of everything. That there may be a destiny or some attribute of me that exists beyond the physical me I can see. He may get the same thing from demoting himself to helping more people than he can help, who have more problems than he does. That in itself is vulnerability. Maybe the best he can do right now?

It can put things in context, such as when I feel I'm not getting mirrored the way I need to be. Ponder where we exist in the known universe and it's almost funny that I need to see myself a certain way. That I'll give people the silent treatment because they didn't help me with my inner lie.

I suspect there is some narcissistic supply I get from thinking about those things. Satisfaction from stimulating my intellect. But, I think it's also humbling. I can't make a mirror large enough to see myself in that stuff. I give up!

I get the impression the OP could be doing something similar. Living for something larger, demoting himself, re-prioritizing values (spending 10 hours a week on the street helping others rather than commuting in his car, frustrated, alone, pursuing material possessions and never fitting in, never being good enough.).

Reducing spirituality down to only narcissistic maladjustment could itself be an expression of regularity chauvinism?

(Again, this is a thought provoking discussion. Don't take me as being defensive or argumentative. Nor am I going to sell all my stuff and join the OP in Seattle.).

TTL,

Oy, quantum computing and the ever-expanding universe are concepts most ppl have a hard time wrapping their heads around, ditto the fact that at molecular level, atoms are constantly moving and the naked eye can't see even that. It may be humbling to think we are mere specks on the macro level or too big giants on the micro level, but man's mental and intellectual capacity to think beyond ourselves has been amazing nevertheless. None of us can possibly know everything there is out there in the universe or under the microscope, but the fact that man's curious mind was behind all that begs the question of spirituality. Are we just doing all this as scientific inquiry for ourselves or for a greater purpose? I think it's for a greater purpose, asking that age-old question, where do we come from?

"It could be that such things are simply a physical reality we haven't discovered yet."

As for our own 9-to-5 lives, we're all on our own journeys, there's no one right way to do it, there are many paths. We're in-between the macro and micro levels, but that's not a bad place to be either.