The Madonna/Whore Complex in Men and Women

Freyja is correct, the picture is by no means clear cut (i.e. men more promiscuous than women):

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Female_promiscuity#Statistics

And yes, getting back on topic, this thread was about splitting of different partners by NPDs and BPDs and the consequences of that on their relationship dynamics.

fretless mayhem1 wrote:So is it not possible to be both Madonna and whore to the n? I'm trying and wondering if it will be a waste of time and energy to do so. There must be a compartment in his brain that will allow me to be both.. no?

I am BPD but I do not believe it would be possible to be both. At least not in my point of view. Being sexual with my husband feels...unclean? If I were to have the overwhelming need to copulate I could use his body but it would be as Ember described. There would be absolutely no passion. Nor could there be. Even though I very much desire this.

Sex to me is more about being..idk...animalistic/savage. A fulfilling of physical needs more than that of emotional needs. Even that though is more of a fantasy in my mind. Who I think I should be is not who I am.

Widget wrote:Nice pics Ember, thanks. I like Doré. There was a big book of his engravings in the house where I grew up. In retrospect, it's strangely ironic that 40 years later his illustrations come up in a discussion with childhood trauma as one of its underlying themes.

I'm glad that I could present something personally relevant and enjoyable to you.

Indeed, whence we come, we seem to return.

I agree with twistednerve that we should consider these impulses and perceptions from the perspective of evolutionary psychology as well as psychodynamic psychology. We always may be pathologizing what is actually normal; it is a mistake as old as human history. I also think that the psychodynamic approach has its merits in this particular context when we consider that we're not talking so much about humans in general, but a trend that the original poster and his coauthor have noticed as particularly common among humans with very specific mental disorders.

Ember wrote: I also think that the psychodynamic approach has its merits in this particular context when we consider that we're not talking so much about humans in general, but a trend that the original poster and his coauthor have noticed as particularly common among humans with very specific mental disorders.

I agree. It makes sense that the differences of personality, or of being disordered, would play out, sometimes in profound ways, in sexuality.

I find it very hard to relate to this splitting. It's incomprehensible to me. I mean no judgement in that. It's a statement of fact -- how hard it is to relate...

freyja wrote:

Ember wrote: I also think that the psychodynamic approach has its merits in this particular context when we consider that we're not talking so much about humans in general, but a trend that the original poster and his coauthor have noticed as particularly common among humans with very specific mental disorders.

I agree. It makes sense that the differences of personality, or of being disordered, would play out, sometimes in profound ways, in sexuality.

I find it very hard to relate to this splitting. It's incomprehensible to me. I mean no judgement in that. It's a statement of fact -- how hard it is to relate...

Splitting is easy to understand if you remember a period in your life you were subject to very, very, VERY INTENSE EMOTIONS that you couldn't articulate. Might not be the same splitting most people talk about, but most people when very angry or stressed, for example, might only see two sides of the coin, instead of multiple possibilities. Think about any big social movement in politics or religion. It is splitting, for sure.

If people actually took time to sit down and take in consideration everyone's needs, this wouldn't happen. instead, they act aggressive. And defensive. You are with me, or you aren't.

Evolutionary psychology also has theories on this... Animals really just need to make 2 choices to survive, most of the time. "It serves me something, or it doesn't", basically. If you're a life form out there to fulfill mostly your own, primal needs, splitting is the most natural thing in the world.

And honestly, most people with a low level of education will think like this. I come from a country where civilization isn't present everywhere, and the less educated, poor citizens behave a lot like aggressive animals and splitting is their way of thinking, too. "Good, bad.". "Ally, enemy". "Sex, not sex". "Gives me this, does not gives me this". "Gives me that, does not gives me that".

TN, to clarify, I was referring to splitting in the context of sexuality -- the topic of this thread. Not to splitting in general. Your comments are informative nevertheless.

-- Mon Nov 10, 2014 2:50 pm --

Evolutionary psychology also has theories on this... Animals really just need to make 2 choices to survive, most of the time. "It serves me something, or it doesn't", basically. If you're a life form out there to fulfill mostly your own, primal needs, splitting is the most natural thing in the world.

This was especially informative.

freyja wrote:I find it very hard to relate to this splitting. It's incomprehensible to me. I mean no judgement in that. It's a statement of fact -- how hard it is to relate...

I don't understand the why, freyja, but I can tell you how I experience it.
I cannot get turned on sexually by someone who demonstrates characteristics such consideration, respect, sensitivity, devotedness... I guess for me there has to be an unequal balance of power in order for me there to be any sexual tension. This is more than just 'liking the bad guy', it so pervasive that I can't form long term relationships (and have never had any) because I only choose unavailable partners who, like me but from the other angle, are searching for a power/control scenario.
I look for qualities such as mutual respect, consideration and kindness in friends, but never in a potential mate. Kindness and mutual respect is a turn off.
I think this a sort of splitting, but I am not sure.

Afterthought: perhaps I have split of the part of my mind which houses my sexuality from the part that deals with other human relations? I dunno...

Well, I wouldn't say that I have this madonna whore complex, but I do distinguish men into two categories, namely to husband/father material and NOT husband material.

For solely sexual purposes, I am attracted to the independent, manly, testosterone driven man, but as I think about someone I want to make a family with, I want someone kindhearted, caring, and gentle.
Of course, there need to be a balance between these two when we marry someone. What I say is that, in order to be sexually attracted, I have to see the manly characteristics in him. However, to view him as a husband 'material' I also have to see that he is caring and kind, which are rather feminine characteristics, but as a husband I want to choose someone who have these qualities (just like my father). Real problem occurs when I get emotionally involved with a 'wrong' guy, the one which is not husband material. And it happens. That's why we have to have our guards up for in the beginning of a relationship.

It is actually very interesting, that some people cannot become emotionally involved with a Whore. I guess most normal guys can though. But the guy with Madonna Whore complex cannot get emotionally involved in the whore.

So mine is not the Madonna whore complex, but may be something related to it. As a sexual partner I want someone like a ''whore'', who will be dominant, and manly, but as a husband I want someone caring and kind. Problem is, I can get emotionally involved with a man considered as 'whore'.

In terms of facial features the first group of guys have distinguishingly manly looks, but the second 'father' group is more feminine. A good balance is what I'm after.

Just to illustrate:

Here's a man I'd want as my whore: http://www.nepoznato.net/wp-content/upl ... /11/bb.jpg

And here's a man illustrating the husband material: http://i.imgur.com/0fPk84H.jpg

I hope you see my point.

If the whore would be nice as a husband (doubt it), or the husband become a whore - well that would be great.

In the beginning of this last go round with my ex, it was very clear after a certain point that I was the Madonna. He would say I was pressuring him for sex, he would get upset, he would have ED issues. After we were broken up, I was clearly the whore, he never had ED issues in this time period, but it was awful how much of an object I had become. He even said in order for him to be able to consider my feelings sex had to stop.