The Madonna/Whore Complex in Men and Women

Widget,

I think you are correct that Narcissists and Borderlines are more similar than different. They both wrestle with sense of self issues and are attempting to construct a reality based on their fantasies (I'm again picturing the show House of Cards, with Frank and Claire Underwood and their singular focus on becoming President and First Lady). You seem to note the conventional wisdom that NPD/BPD relationships are doomed to fail once the respective fantasies fall apart (sort of like a house of cards!). I wonder though if this is due to most NPD/BPD couples being completely unaware of their respective disorders. Why wouldn't an NPD/BPD couple that was self-aware be able to build their world together, so to speak?

TN needs *MOOd edit*

(I find the image of the knight in armour an apt one, for the knight's face is covered by his helmet therein making him anonymous. He cannot be truly known. Covered in armour he is impenetrable, infinitely strong, the rescuer.)

Fairy tales are for kids.

Knock him off the horse, bang the helmet hard....then peel off his armor, don that yerself...and take the horse.

Kidding aside, growing up, were any of you aware that things were not not 'right' in the house? The family dynamic was off . Screwball compared to other households? Mind you, in my case, it was rather unique given the countries and cultures we lived in growing up..but even then it it was still off by long mile and then some.

***mod edit - please post respectfully***

ratz...now I want to know what TN wrote. He's always got something good to sink your teeth into.
~*~*~ peoples kind of sensitive around here...~*~*~

So I suppose I'm trying (in some weird way) to heal childhood wounds through my relationships?

That is what my therapist told me. And ....if I look at my parents r.s. and the life , it was happening again, and I wanted no part of it.

Why wouldn't an NPD/BPD couple that was self-aware be able to build their world together, so to speak?

Maybe...and that would take something that both suffer a massive lack of...Trust.

Ember wrote:I was just reading about the origins of the knight-in-shining-armor and damsel-in-distress tropes a few days ago, and you've reminded of a beautiful illustration entitled Ruggiero Rescuing Angelica by Gustave Doré that I found while exploring and now feel inclined to share. Doré seems to have had something of an interest in the damsel-in-distress trope, as he also painted Andromeda chained to the rocks before she is rescued by Perseus. I encourage everyone to view his works. I especially love his illustrations for Paradise Lost.

Nice pics Ember, thanks. I like Doré. There was a big book of his engravings in the house where I grew up. In retrospect, it's strangely ironic that 40 years later his illustrations come up in a discussion with childhood trauma as one of its underlying themes.

I like the Pre-Raphaelites. Lots of wilting Gothic maidens being ravaged by knights in shiny. And The Lady of Shalott by Tennyson is the epitome of the Borderline written into poetry.

-- Mon Nov 10, 2014 10:42 am --

InSpiritus wrote:Fairy tales are for kids.

Ah, but I have to disagree. Maybe written so that children can understand them, but actually fairy tales are allegories of the life ahead. They are lessons. It's only in retrospect, reading them again as an adult, that you think "oh s***, that's what it's about".

-- Mon Nov 10, 2014 10:45 am --

InSpiritus wrote:Kidding aside, growing up, were any of you aware that things were not not 'right' in the house? The family dynamic was off . Screwball compared to other households? Mind you, in my case, it was rather unique given the countries and cultures we lived in growing up..but even then it it was still off by long mile and then some.

Yes, I am now, through psychotherapy. I think if the abuse is subtle, particularly if it's emotional rather than physical, then it's not obvious until we start to untangle the childhood dynamics in a therapeutic setting.

Esquire wrote:Widget,

I think you are correct that Narcissists and Borderlines are more similar than different. They both wrestle with sense of self issues and are attempting to construct a reality based on their fantasies (I'm again picturing the show House of Cards, with Frank and Claire Underwood and their singular focus on becoming President and First Lady). You seem to note the conventional wisdom that NPD/BPD relationships are doomed to fail once the respective fantasies fall apart (sort of like a house of cards!). I wonder though if this is due to most NPD/BPD couples being completely unaware of their respective disorders. Why wouldn't an NPD/BPD couple that was self-aware be able to build their world together, so to speak?

Quite possibly. I think you make a good point that it's the lack of self-awareness that causes disintegration. I can only speak of my own experience, but to date my lovers have not had that self-awareness. Particularly the last one, bless him. He is younger than me, so maybe his time has not yet come.

I do think that two self-aware pwPDs have a good chance to have a deep and lasting relationship
compared to someone with a PD and a non who can't relate to their partner's existential pain. I guess my perfect match would be a self-aware pwNPD, but I yet to bump into him.

-- Mon Nov 10, 2014 10:53 am --

GingerSnappyOne wrote: So I suppose I'm trying (in some weird way) to heal childhood wounds through my relationships?

Repetition compulsion, psychoanalytic re-enactment. Yup.

@to my beloved and delicious inSpiritus, who i would love to take a bite at this morning. COME HERE!!!,

I usually bring unnecessarily graphic realism, loaded with curse words (which our dear, ever so delicate Lillyfairy doesn't seem to approve ), based on what seems to be the most reasonable hypothesis on current scientific circles and just common sense as a human being who has lived with the crazy, the foreign, the not quite human and is now somewhat able to, in my humble opinion, intuitively point out what is natural and healthy behavior for us poor intelligent apes, who seem lost at our own complex brains. But I guess my style of communication can be seen as beligerant, disrespectful and too invasive. Only if these people knew how much of a teddy bear I am irl.

@to my good friend Wendy,
I don't know why you seem to think I'm in a bad mood every time I post around these parts. Am I such a nag to you?


Anyhoo, idealizing women as mother-like and potentially sexual is normal. Most men do that. Most.. uh.. "not disordered social structures" (?) revolve around finding mates who can provide both a sexual and parenting role. That's how you build families!

But growing accostumed to your partnet and losing interest in her as she becomes a mother is also natural... Our ancestral cousins pretty much moved on to impregnate other women all the time. It was a bit of a necessity in times where mortality was so high. Finding wives and permanent partners was a choice or luxury for some, then became a social obligation to better organize bigger and more complex societies (which also became STD festering pitholes - fact that did not went unnoticed by ancient men and therefore resulted in even more measures to limit fornication ).

Madonna/Whore complex is a bit of a reductionist approach to understand this myriad of possible feelings and relationship dynamics when it comes to just lose interest when it's stable. First described by Freud, who was a moron, too poetic and so desperate to "get ahead" with his theories tha tis quite obvious that he rushed concepts and made them more theatrical. Pop bastard.

Anyways, I think most guys (women too? I don't know, really. I rarely get the inside scoop on you guys) usually feel a terrible urge to move on when the partner is getting older, is pregnant or is becoming a bit "stale". It's proven by a host of different behaviors and hypothesis that pretty much most apes want to "spread his seed", "broad the horizons" of his female romantic interests and go around as much as possible.

Also.. Ever ate just chicken, broccoli and yams in all 3 meals, every day, for 3 years? You would lose interest and move on, too. The psychology of bored is complex. Moving on is important. if you get sick of seeing the same 25 trees and mountaineous landscape every day, you travel for just no reason. And if you're sick of the same partner, you will impregnante a bunch of girls all over the road s you may travel (if you're lucky).

Then when a meteor hits the place you used to live and anihilate all life within the region, you will not only escape death, but your offspring with any current parners will too. Plus, Earth is now full of your little copies you made along the way, thus making your species thrive.

And cluster B people are pretty much a tornado of chaotic hormones and brain signaling (again, THE SCIENCE might be completely wrong in this, but at the moment, seems the most reasonable and plausable - not proven, though ) pulling you to all kinds of extremes in emotion and behavior. So amplified and even more chaotic inner sensations and motivations for behaviors that are by it's nature unstable (in a healthy way depending on context, though) can be seen as a distinct disorder/symptom or just a natural consequence of what you already are?

Lillyfairy, please copy and paste my posts as a PM to me before deleteting them. My geniosity can not simply fade away untouched by the eyes of my dear PF colleagues

twistednerve wrote:I don't know why you seem to think I'm in a bad mood every time I post around these parts.

Well..just look at your avatar Compared to mine

WendyTorrance wrote:

twistednerve wrote:I don't know why you seem to think I'm in a bad mood every time I post around these parts.

Well..just look at your avatar Compared to mine

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tn0PMCwIUxI

Wendy+TN
Best friends

InSpiritus wrote:Knock him off the horse, bang the helmet hard....then peel off his armor, don that yerself...and take the horse.

What the?