The Madonna/Whore Complex in Men and Women

Violet, sometimes I marvel at your ability to reach and think outside of the box. In my mind these are all great questions for me to ask myself about myself -- and then to see what is common or uncommon with others.

I'm wondering where the understanding would go if we try to look at a sex as a way to meet our unmet needs.

Answering for myself, it's about attraction more than arousal, who am I attracted to sexually? And yeah there's a big part, a big hole of pain of the words I never heard from my father -- or rather he related to me as a male till puberty -- praised that part -- and then abandoned me after it was inescapable that I was a woman and boundary violations galore...

I think what I will do sometime is go back and try to remember ways that I felt, sort of recreate by memories and kind of look at some events from a third person perspective -- a recommendation to deal with trauma for some people. Then I get in touch with those feelings again that I had as a child...

And the question is what those needs really are
It is also the fact that those needs are not my real needs, those are needs of the unhealed child in me, in fact those are needs that in adulthood became wants.

Once i can get to the feelings I felt and those that still linger on, then maybe I can figure out my needs as they are. some of those childhood, unconscious needs now become conscious and I can keep them as a need or not. Its about getting rid of some of those unconscious needs?

But part of me also progressed, and there are some other needs/wants involved that are perhaps more rational.

Self-awareness.

So I guess It takes a lot of introspection to understand what our unmet childhood needs (now wants) are and ho they are in conflict with the current state of our mind.

For myself, its about being able to change my thought processes and behavior in the end to better get my needs met.

The trick is in the conflict.

I am not sure it is conflict for me. I really don't know. I tend to think it is lack of awareness more than anything else in my case.

fretless mayhem1 wrote:

Widget wrote:

fretless mayhem1 wrote:So is it not possible to be both Madonna and whore to the n? I'm trying and wondering if it will be a waste of time and energy to do so. There must be a compartment in his brain that will allow me to be both.. no?

Perhaps the question to ask yourself is not how you can be both, but why you want to be both. Or either.

I have a strong need to be both. I don't know why. I'm trying to figure out why.

Me too. I only ask because it is the question I ask myself a million times every day.

I know the theory (emotional abandonment in childhood, loss of Self, co-dependent rescuer as a coping mechanism, the primal wound of loneliness, blah blah blah) but knowing why doesn't stop the longing.

Precisely, Violet comes in and lifts up a sprawling topic.

VioletAasA wrote:So how in my brain the meeting those childhood needs gets connected to sexual arousal?

The source of my problems is related to my father, I am sure.
Today, I am unable to form a healthy, long lasting sexual bond with my SO. I feel that neither of us needs are met and the relationship is doomed. This person is in other ways the opposite of my father, so I feel that the relation is safe. But sexually, zero.
If a man resembles(?) my father, I am able to temporarily create a strong bond in all areas, including/especially sexually. It feels great, but I don't feel safe, so it doesn't last.

Ember wrote:I find that very subtle violations like the ones that the three of us describe can only really be identified when they are strictly compared to cultural norms. I find that this is simply unusual in the United States. To demonstrate the difference between cultures, I believe that in Finland it is, traditionally, not unusual for children to sleep in their parents' beds from birth until three or four years of age. Perhaps Wendy can confirm, deny or elaborate upon this. Naturally, in the United States, this would be an extreme boundary violation.

I grew up in, and still live in, England. I grew up in a conservative, upper middle class family where there was very little affectionate, physical contact between the parents and children. No hugging, for example. So brushing one's parents hair would not be the social norm. I guess that is why to this day I remember how weird it was being asked to do it. Most evenings as well, not just occasionally.
Things are more relaxed culturally now in my country (I think!), but I would guess that the UK is still more like the United States than continental Europe, (including Finland) when it comes to parenting norms.

Ember wrote:

VioletAasA wrote:So how in my brain the meeting those childhood needs gets connected to sexual arousal? I don't really recall any inappropriate moves from my father in that direction.

Do you remember the same boundary violations in childhood that some of us have described? Notice that most of ours were not explicitly sexual boundary violations. I conclude that the reason that these needs are related to sex in adulthood is because we have never learned which sort or degree of intimacy is appropriate and desirable in which relationships, and intimacy is related to sexuality in adulthood. I think that these things can happen whether there is too much or too little intimacy in childhood.

If anything, I think that there was too liddle intimacy. My father was reading books before bad to my older sibling, but he stopped that when I was born, and he was never doing this with me. I think that it is possible that my mother was jalous on my sibling's affection to my father, so he didn't develop this bond to me. But this is just my feeling, and if this is the real reason that he didn't read books to me he was perhaps not so clearly aware of that.
Also, I spent many of my early years before school with my grandparents that lived in another town.


There are two events that I recall, and just because I recalling them they may mean something.

First
My father was sick in bed (properly covered) and I was playing with him. Than I grabbed something that I thought was a finger; well it was quite stiff finger...I asked him what that was and he was very uncomfortable, didn't know what to say; I insisted asking what it was, was it a finger, and he finally put his s. together and said yes it was a finger. I don't remeber clearly, but I think he found some way to tell me to live or go do something. Our playing was definitely over after that.
I should say that sex was not a thing to talk about, and they would cover my eyes when on a holiday we were passing by a nude bitch.

Second
One hot summer day, myfather filled the mobile bath tab with wather and installed it on a playing field in front of our condo. Mind you, he put quite the effort to bring all the water to the tab. I was sitting in that tab, he was away, and wondered if it was ok to pee int it. I was also thought that when we go to the bitch it is ok to pee in the water, because there is a lot of water and it dissolves. So my conclusion was that it was ok to pee I that bath tab. Which I did. Than my father came to see ho I was doing, and as it was hot outside, he washed his face with the tab water. Than I told him that I peed in the tab. He didn't say anything, just had discuss on his face, and I think he left to wash the face. I remembered that recently, and I was loughing.
I don't see anything bad in this story, but for some reason it came to my mind when you asked about childhood memories.

VioletAasA wrote:

Ember wrote:

VioletAasA wrote:So how in my brain the meeting those childhood needs gets connected to sexual arousal? I don't really recall any inappropriate moves from my father in that direction.

Do you remember the same boundary violations in childhood that some of us have described? Notice that most of ours were not explicitly sexual boundary violations. I conclude that the reason that these needs are related to sex in adulthood is because we have never learned which sort or degree of intimacy is appropriate and desirable in which relationships, and intimacy is related to sexuality in adulthood. I think that these things can happen whether there is too much or too little intimacy in childhood.

If anything, I think that there was too liddle intimacy. My father was reading books before bad to my older sibling, but he stopped that when I was born, and he was never doing this with me. I think that it is possible that my mother was jalous on my sibling's affection to my father, so he didn't develop this bond to me. But this is just my feeling, and if this is the real reason that he didn't read books to me he was perhaps not so clearly aware of that.
Also, I spent many of my early years before school with my grandparents that lived in another town.


There are two events that I recall, and just because I recalling them they may mean something.

First
My father was sick in bed (properly covered) and I was playing with him. Than I grabbed something that I thought was a finger; well it was quite stiff finger...I asked him what that was and he was very uncomfortable, didn't know what to say; I insisted asking what it was, was it a finger, and he finally put his s. together and said yes it was a finger. I don't remeber clearly, but I think he found some way to tell me to live or go do something. Our playing was definitely over after that.
I should say that sex was not a thing to talk about, and they would cover my eyes when on a holiday we were passing by a nude bitch.

Second
One hot summer day, myfather filled the mobile bath tab with wather and installed it on a playing field in front of our condo. Mind you, he put quite the effort to bring all the water to the tab. I was sitting in that tab, he was away, and wondered if it was ok to pee int it. I was also thought that when we go to the bitch it is ok to pee in the water, because there is a lot of water and it dissolves. So my conclusion was that it was ok to pee I that bath tab. Which I did. Than my father came to see ho I was doing, and as it was hot outside, he washed his face with the tab water. Than I told him that I peed in the tab. He didn't say anything, just had discuss on his face, and I think he left to wash the face. I remembered that recently, and I was loughing.
I don't see anything bad in this story, but for some reason it came to my mind when you asked about childhood memories.

Yes, I encourage you to freely associate, Violet, although I am as confused about the second memory as I believe you are.

Also, you mean "beach," rather than "bitch." I can't blame you for confusing the two; the similarity is the object of humor in some English jokes.

That is unfortunate, Violet. It's strange to think about how such a little, innocent thing can have such a powerful effect on a relationship.

I've thought about the second memory some more, Violet. Perhaps you remember it as a time that you "played" or had fun with your father, even if he was disgusted by the urine.

***mod edit - please post respectfully***

Ember wrote:I've thought about the second memory some more, Violet. Perhaps you remember it as a time that you "played" or had fun with your father, even if he was disgusted by the urine.

I think it is really funny.
It seems to me one of rare moments of bonding.
In fact both stories are moments of bonding that ended up abruptly because I did something.

reflection wrote:I found this interesting because you talk of violating normal boundaries. My mother when my daddy left use to have me brush her hair for long periods of time, or take the hair brush and run it up and down her back. I would have been too young to give anywhere near an adequate massage. I would complain about doing it because my hand would get tired.

Widget wrote:When I was a child my mother used to make me brush her hair. I hated doing it, the feel, the smell, but she would insist. I've never given it much thought until you wrote this, but yes, it is a violation of normal boundaries.

Uuuugggg.. Yeah. Me too. I can remember being very young.. and having to brush my mom's hair (and not liking the smell of it) and later, being asked to rub her back.. and even my aunt and grandmother's backs as well. (I have a twin sister and we both "got it") I detested that one because that generation of my family were "large women" so that was a whooole lot of back to rub... and we had little fingers so you can imagine how cramped they got. They would crow about how good we were.. magic fingers and all that. We knew we were being manipulated. We hated it. Blech! Man.. I haven't thought about that in years until this thread. Maybe we should join a "back rubs and hair brushing club". I guess it was a violation of normal boundaries since it was something I DID NOT enjoy - it was like a chore - and it's something I never put my children up to doing. I think it's part of the reason I'm not very physically affectionate with my family to this day.

Widget wrote:The more I educate myself about NPD and BPD, the more it is not the differences between the two disorders that are so apparent, but the similarities. The splitting of partners being discussed on this thread is such a good example of that.

I guess the question I really want to know the answer to is, why does this splitting happen, and what aspect of trauma causes it to happen?

Widget - I found your example of the differences/similarities of NPD/BPD splitting and how it relates to MWC very interesting - especially since it's something I never really looked at in myself. Just in my partners. I definitely "split" however, I never considered the possibility that I am guilty of doing the same in reverse - seeing my husband as a "provider" and pretty vanilla I guess. He's the "Madonna" in the sense that we have no physical intimacy, and as he doesn't see me that way, I have quit looking at him that way as well. Maybe in some aspects its in "self defense" but he's like a room mate and "security". My NPD is the fire that has been consuming me for the last 2 years... we are very physical. And just as I get upset with him for "objectifying me", I suppose I do the same to him. He fulfills everything I crave - that physical contact, the affection, the craving, the loving words, the passion, literally EVERYTHING I don't get from home.

I know my "splitting" occurred as a result of my screwed up childhood as well. My mom raised us primarily - my biological father pretty much abandoned us until I was ten and then he came back into our lives, my step father (ages 5 to 13) was an alcoholic and physically and emotionally abusive. Mom was "loving" as much as she could be but passive as was my biological father. My husband is much more the "passive" type but my NPD is more the opposite. So I suppose I'm trying (in some weird way) to heal childhood wounds through my relationships?