The Madonna/Whore Complex in Men and Women

Reflection reports that she believes she experiences a similar dynamic in her own psychology. She feels that she splits men into categories similar to the ones I described, where a man may be categorized as a potential provider, someone to take care of her, or a man may be categorized as someone to achieve intimacy with. The difference, she says, lies in the fact that she views the "Whore" in this case to be the man who provides her with both physical AND emotional intimacy, while the "Madonna" in this case is more of a father figure who she feels dependent on for her material needs, but who is not required or expected to provide either emotional intimacy or physical intimacy (and from whom neither is wanted).

I also get a bit queasy to read and post on this thread. Contemplating these issues opens up a world of vulnerabilities that I'd rather expunge from conscious existence -- spent most of my life trying not to face these issues... or finding a place that I could.

Using the language of Madonna and Whore, I guess the whore for me is the man that I feel emotionally and physically intimate with as well. The Madonna is not the man who provides for me (that I have always done myself -- was inculcated, inoculated against dependency of this form by my mother) -- but rather a man who protects me and makes me feel safe.

I have noticed in retrospect that when I was looking for safety, I have made much more suitable choices than when I was not -- that is when the Madonna/Whore were found in the same person. It's a paradox there because I feel incredibly vulnerable in that situation at the beginning, cause I've put all my eggs in one basket so to speak.

I thought I had found in my ex, my protector and my lover -- he had me fooled despite all the clear signals. FAke PTSD for fake war time heroism was his cover. Maybe this is also why that relationship still bothers me.

And women want to take care of a man too. I don't know where the role of a man one takes care of or helps fits into the madonna/whore complex... I don't think I could feel close to a man unless I felt that I was helping him in his life.

I could write a book about my relationship with my father. He betrayed me many times.

I'll add to Wendy's comment that a person has to be willing to risk the vulnerability of meeting all of those needs in one person -- more than being worthy, but feeling that the world is safe enough, or one's instincts are good enough, that it is worth the risk.

I also feel queasy about posting in this thread.. but at the same time, I'm thankful for it. It's a huge issue I've been battling in my relationships for some time now. I have the uncomfortable position of being the "madonna" in one relationship and the "whore" in my other simultaneously if that's possible, and it's a nightmare. First, there's my marriage, in which my husband has not laid a hand on me in 3 years (and only sporadically before that.. like a year would go by, six months..etc). The last six years have sucked. (We've been married for 15) Things were never wild but they were okay physically, but as our marriage "aged" I guess, it's like a switch flipped and he literally doesn't see me in a sexual way anymore. We've been room mates. We've argued about it, we've separated.. we've both had affairs. He says he loves me.. but claims his inability to perform is a medical yet won't go to the Dr. I believe it's more the MWC... he was able to perform with his OW (who was much younger btw). I can only tell you that being the "madonna" as it's so called.. is damaging because it rips your self esteem and sexuality to shreds. I felt unattractive, shy, broken, abandoned, defective... the list goes on. Certainly not "pure or revered". In some ways, he DID liken me to his mother but not in a good way. His mother is insane.. she nagged..she was detrimental. If I said one thing that he construed as negative, he likened me to "his mother" and therefor, I was stripped of any desirability. His young girlfriend (she was 22 to his 45) worshiped him with doe eyes so he idealized her.. she was sexual and attractive. He got it going for her..you bet. His "whore" if you will. In the 14th year of my marriage, I met the man I began my affair with (who I discovered later is NPD) and separated from my husband. I was idealized at first, but of course things deteriorated. As I've discussed in another thread, he is also involved in another relationship (LTR) and I discovered I was the OW. I also discovered he treats the other woman much like my husband treats me. Rarely has physical contact with her yet the less time he spends with me, the more he is spending with her. He can barely keep his hands off of me, and I definitely feel "objectified" now (whereas before I felt cared about).. more and more I'm feeling like something he gets a craving for (like a cheese burger or ice cream) but feelings are fleeting to when he's horny. He's so full of love and cuddling and kissing and passion when he's pursuing me.. getting me in the mood... working me up... "hoovering" if you will, but once he's achieved his orgasm, it's game over until the next time. Sometimes he'll call me the next day. Sometimes... he won't. So.. I get the absolute opposite from him. I'm a sexual being. I'm desirable. I'm attractive. He pursues me. I'm everything to him that I'm not to my husband. But... I'm nothing, because I'm not a whole person to anyone. I end up feeling empty, lost and cheap. And that... is why I'm in therapy with a big fat diagnosis of BPD.

Sorry for the long post.. but MWC sucks.

reflection wrote:

wendytorrance wrote:It does not exist?

Good to hear from you wendy.

How do you think that it could exist?

Always good to hear from you Reflection!
You don't believe it, it is so deeply hard-wired. Well, I don't have the answers, but hope is not non-existent.

freyja wrote:I have noticed in retrospect that when I was looking for safety, I have made much more suitable choices than when I was not -- that is when the Madonna/Whore were found in the same person. It's a paradox there because I feel incredibly vulnerable in that situation at the beginning, cause I've put all my eggs in one basket so to speak.

Likewise, suitable choices. But looking for safety sounds like settling. Doesn't appear there's heart in the process.
So there's the black and white thinking again.

freyja wrote:I'll add to Wendy's comment that a person has to be willing to risk the vulnerability of meeting all of those needs in one person -- more than being worthy, but feeling that the world is safe enough, or one's instincts are good enough, that it is worth the risk.

We all deserve the best things.

that's the thing
there is no perfect person that'll meet all your needs
relationships are by definition compromise
giving up power for security
investing for protections
give and take

The more I educate myself about NPD and BPD, the more it is not the differences between the two disorders that are so apparent, but the similarities. The splitting of partners being discussed on this thread is such a good example of that.

Here' are my thoughts. Comments welcome!

The pwBPD is magnetically attracted to the pwNPD because he represents an archetype from her unconscious. He is a mythic figure, her Don Juan who will come and save her from the unbearable anguish of her disintegrated sense of Self.

Seeking external validation (there's another similarity with the N) she will seek to be psychically consumed by him in her desperation to escape from the inner emptiness that is the produce of lack of Self. I am going to call this Knight in Shining Armour Syndrome, as the opposite side of the same coin to the N's Madonna/Whore complex. Being two sides of the same coin, one cannot exist without the other.

But the Knight in Shiny is as much a construction of her inner consciousness as the Whore for the N. Because the ideal is not based upon the qualities of the real person, the Borderline can objectify/idealize on any man who can act the role perfectly, and that's exactly what the N can and does do.

(I find the image of the knight in armour an apt one, for the knight's face is covered by his helmet therein making him anonymous. He cannot be truly known. Covered in armour he is impenetrable, infinitely strong, the rescuer.)

The pwBPD can 'lose herself' and as a result have the incredible, mind blowing sex with the Knight in Shiny because she has objectified him, not despite of it. He is not real, and sex belongs in the realms of the un-real, in escapism beyond the corporeal world.

We all know what happens when the fantasy starts to fall apart for both of the characters in this story...

The pwBPD can't have sexual desire for a man who does not fulfill this Casanova-esque role. A man who is kind, reliable, demonstrates tenderness and 'love' and is, dare I say boring, cannot excite her and she will be repelled by the thought of sex with such a man. It will seem wrong, contrived, embarrassing, almost ridiculous.

The pwBPD lives in a lonely wasteland, where she is repelled by those who could provide her with the love and companionship that comes from a healthy, equal relationship, whilst she desires only those chimeras who will ultimately reject her for her human-ness, as she will likewise reject them for same.

We suffer the same splitting, for the same reasons (childhood trauma). Real strength comes from us all understanding that, and having compassion for the other when in the bowels of our own pain.

I guess the question I really want to know the answer to is, why does this splitting happen, and what aspect of trauma causes it to happen?

-- Sun Nov 09, 2014 11:59 am --

Ember wrote:Now that you say this, I realize that I should have said that hair brushing and back massaging were some of the other things that happened in my home frequently that now seem to violate normal boundaries somewhat.

When I was a child my mother used to make me brush her hair. I hated doing it, the feel, the smell, but she would insist. I've never given it much thought until you wrote this, but yes, it is a violation of normal boundaries.

A lot of men do see women that way, true.

I can't relate to it, though. I don't have a mother figure emotionally, nor do I see that in women. I pretty much see people as apes, honestly. In my opinion, anything can be f***** and most people from all ages (including the elderly and some children) are sexual enough and motivated by sex. Most "mother Goose" like figures you meet in real life are actually pretty horny, maybe because nobody has been tending to their goosely needs.

Though I am heterosexual, I'm rarely REALLY attracted to the girls I sleep with. I see sex as ways to relieve something I am seeking and enjoy it sensually, for it physical pleasures. Also, as a way to make bonds with people. I have more sex for the situation's sake or to fill a physiological need.

Some girls do turn me on a lot, but even them can be seen as "mother figures", I guess. My last 3 girlfriends all "took care of me" in a very emotionally nurturing and material way (as I did of them, so this "parent figure" crap really doesnt stick for me. silly transient cultural concept). I recognize my mother as a very attractive woman, even on her 50s she has the body most men want. I don't idealize her sexually or anything like that, at all.

But in my opinion, any form of "primal" man would see women as "f*ckable" and "elder-like" - then the diseased, crazy, generally unatractive, "so ugly I dont want my weiner touchin that". it's our ape nature. In ancient times, that's all we had in the female department served to us and it was all we needed from them.

But looking for safety sounds like settling.

Hmm...no...sanctuary.

I pretty much see people as apes, honestly.

Some don't behave much differently either...so there's that...

i Always look for the whore in the the madonna
and the madonna in the whore
somehow that works

madjoe wrote:that's the thing
there is no perfect person that'll meet all your needs

Yeah. You can not expect anyone to rescue you.

relationships are compomise
and that's where it goes wrong for anny pd