The Madonna/Whore Complex in Men and Women

I read somewhere, once, of an experiment where men's brains were scanned, whilst they viewed sexually arousing material. The areas of the brain signifying contempt lit up at the same time as those signifying sexual arousal. It seems to be universally impossible for men to be aroused by a woman, without thinking of her as 'naughty' in some sense. I suppose that to do otherwise would categorise her as - I don't know, saintly, motherly? I can understand it, without being able to explain why I think that a 'good' female would be viewed as unsexy.

Also, I once read of a woman who had a strong sense that she was about to be sexually assaulted by her taxi driver. So she started to talk about her grandchildren, (she wasn't old), and putting her hand on his arm in a sort of 'cosy', rather than flirtatious way, so that she somehow 'de-sexed' herself, presented herself as a 'good' woman, perhaps, and averted an attack.

Following on from what esquire says is Reflection's experience, in the opening post, if there a recognised female version of Madonna/whore complex? Christ Father/escort complex perhaps?

(Note: I appreciate I am referring to heterosexual coupling only; this is not because I am ignoring homosexual relationships, just simplifying for the sake of comprehension)

I read somewhere, once, of an experiment where men's brains were scanned

Once....sounds like the rest may have been female given the the manner in which most males of the species operate. Juz say'in....

serena33 wrote:Very interesting topic, thank you so much for sharing your thoughts.

Over the years I've come to the conclusion that most people are wired to feel deeply connected to partners who regress them. Regression to me is a strange kind of seduction- it involves triggering unmet childhood needs, together with the promise of meeting them. If you've heard the cliche `she married her father' or `he married his mother' this is the kind of thing I'm referring to.

I believe that when children are deeply wounded, they are highly prone to this kind seduction. Its so powerful because the needs of a child are connected with survival. Therefore the promise of having those needs met is so compelling and urgent, it will keep a partner in a relationship long after it is clear that the partner cannot, in fact, meet those needs. Usually its for the same reasons the parent could not- ie they are too similar to the parent.

I totally agree with this and tried to convey the same thing several times, but your explanation is the best that I have seen by now. I call it that we try to replace our parents.

And somehow, somewhwre there, there is the underststanding of our sexual preferences. As we grow up, sex comes in as the additional component, in the whole story, and it may be seen as a way to gain a power, or gain the love (which I think may be my case, not sure), or gain what we want, or discard/humiliate the parent that didn't give us the love that we needed.. In all objectification in sex, i think there is some element of power, as well as sadism/mazohism toward parents. And it is personal experience for each of us.

I don't know if I have this Madonna-whore complex, but I do know that I was attracted to my partners sexually first, and this was my only way to get into relationship. So in a way it is the objectification.

bitty wrote:I read somewhere, once, of an experiment where men's brains were scanned, whilst they viewed sexually arousing material. The areas of the brain signifying contempt lit up at the same time as those signifying sexual arousal. It seems to be universally impossible for men to be aroused by a woman, without thinking of her as 'naughty' in some sense.

Bitty, viewing porn is objectifying a sexual experience. Most people do not experience sex the same way they experience porn. So by definition different parts of the brain will light up or shut down in those two cases.

As well, I wonder what one would see putting women in that experimental situation. Also one study doesn't prove anything. It could be that your conclusion "without thinking of her as naughty..." is correct, but the facts here don't add up to a case. I tend to stay away from making wholesale statements of men as a group, since I don't have the personal experience to relate to.

ember wrote:It is always a pleasure to see you participate, reflection.

Thank you Ember.

ember wrote:so they were the models that I had for appropriate interpersonal interaction. Naturally, the boundaries in our relationships were subtly abnormal. The increased aggression taught me false things about myself and relationships. When I saw my parents physically fight one another, I was taught that lover can be enemy. When they lacked the patience to meet my needs, I was taught that I needed too much. When they confided in me things beyond my years, they taught me that others are demanding, that I am uniquely able to meet others' demands, and that I am expected to meet those demands or be held morally responsible.

I learned from my parents that I held no value. That I was as disposable as the trash they took out. That love is conditional and nothing lasts forever. That if you do not meet the expectations of others they will abandon you.

I relate to you when you write of your parents' lack of patience to meet your needs and, as a result of that, believing that it was you who needed too much.

ember wrote:I should say that there was no sexual abuse.

There was “bordering” sexual abuse in my past. I was never penetrated. The person who is guilty of it always wanted- -a kiss.

ember wrote:I feel an unusual...anxiety (?) right now.

I think this is due to the discomfort of sharing. I always feel a form of panic in the center of my chest when sharing. Even as I type, I shake.

violetAasA wrote:In my understanding the healthy relationship is the one that includes both physical an emotional intimacy (not that I am an expert). So what would perhaps constitute a healthy relationship, somehow turns into whore?

Provider and someone who take care of me - this sounds like a father role?

A warm welcome back to you.

I don’t think of him as a whore. I just cringe when he touches me sexually. As if he shouldn’t expect that from me.

ember wrote:I sometimes have fantasies about my love interests treating me in a maternal way; I imagine them stroking my hair in the role of what a parent would be.

What you describe is a reality for me. I call it “touch”. It is my connection to my husband and something I request daily. I sit at his feet and he plays with my hair. He is someone I look to for comfort. Much like when a child is hurt and they require someone to make it better.

reflection wrote:Thank you Ember.

Certainly, reflection.

reflection wrote:I think this is due to the discomfort of sharing. I always feel a form of panic in the center of my chest when sharing. Even as I type, I shake.

Yes, perhaps. I just find that that isn't a common problem for me. Perhaps this topic is more relevant than I know.

reflection wrote:

ember wrote:It is always a pleasure to see you participate, reflection.

Thank you Ember.

ember wrote:What you describe is a reality for me. I call it “touch”. It is my connection to my husband and something I request daily. I sit at his feet and he plays with my hair. He is someone I look to for comfort. Much like when a child is hurt and they require someone to make it better.

I must say that that sounds positively delightful. I have always loved it when someone plays with my hair.

Now that you say this, I realize that I should have said that hair brushing and back massaging were some of the other things that happened in my home frequently that now seem to violate normal boundaries somewhat.

I think that men with this complex have a tendency to find a long-term partner to fulfill their emotional needs, and then feel unsatisfied sexually, often causing them to seek out an objectified sexual partner as well.

>>

The difference, she says, lies in the fact that she views the "Whore" in this case to be the man who provides her with both physical AND emotional intimacy, while the "Madonna" in this case is more of a father figure who she feels dependent on for her material needs, but who is not required or expected to provide either emotional intimacy or physical intimacy (and from whom neither is wanted).

I use to cycle through stages of wanting to be sexual with him versus finding the act with him repulsive.
Since becoming aware, I am more familiar with what is going on inside of me and I no longer want to be sexual with him.

I completely agree.
But why it is so, it sounds to me that a person feels that he/she is not worthy of it all.
And with that I don't identify, why not seeking someone who has the whole package. It does not exist? I refuse to think this way.

ember wrote:Now that you say this, I realize that I should have said that hair brushing and back massaging were some of the other things that happened in my home frequently that now seem to violate normal boundaries somewhat.

I found this interesting because you talk of violating normal boundaries. My mother when my daddy left use to have me brush her hair for long periods of time, or take the hair brush and run it up and down her back. I would have been too young to give anywhere near an adequate massage. I would complain about doing it because my hand would get tired.

I until now had never thought of that as violating a boundary. Even if it weren't to be considered that it at the very least would have been me meeting HER needs. Something upon thinking about she expected of me often. My daddy on the other hand had a different set of expectations.

wendytorrance wrote:It does not exist?

Good to hear from you wendy.

How do you think that it could exist?

freyja wrote:Bitty, viewing porn is objectifying a sexual experience. Most people do not experience sex the same way they experience porn. So by definition different parts of the brain will light up or shut down in those two cases.

As well, I wonder what one would see putting women in that experimental situation. Also one study doesn't prove anything. It could be that your conclusion "without thinking of her as naughty..." is correct, but the facts here don't add up to a case. I tend to stay away from making wholesale statements of men as a group, since I don't have the personal experience to relate to.

Good points, freyja, you're right, thanks.