Definition, Causes, Symptoms & Treatment

youdontneedtoknow wrote:... before I discovered NPD, I just thought I was a bit of a git, & the rest was down to my star sign. Isnt that sweet?

LOOOOOOOOOL. Are you my ex?

-- Fri Mar 23, 2012 10:09 am --

Reluctant Shaman wrote:It may surprise you that we are all narcissistic, and we need to be in order to operate in our world.
The Spectrum of Narcissism is on a Continuum from 1 - 10. From what we call Healthy Narcissism (being a 1), all the way to a pathological form, called Narcissistic Personality Disorder or NPD (being a 10), with varying degrees in between. Too little sense of narcissism leads to a lack of confidence and esteem, while too much leads to inflated egos (as seen in NPD) .

I have written an article that mentions the difference between Healthy Narcissism and Unhealthy Narcissism, if you would like to read it, just feel free to click on the link below.
http://narcissisticbehavior.net/categor ... narcissism

Reluctant Shaman - from your studies do you think someone with npd would have this since childhood (and if so what age approx - even if that varies) or do you think they could form npd as a result of a terrible traumatic life event (eg: something in their 20's or 30's), or indeed a head injury?

Would be interested on your thoughts.

can anyone answer my question as to what age npd would develop in a child (on average)? is there any research evidence into a specific age or is it different for each individual? Also is it possible for someone to have npd later in life (say in their 20's) due to ptsd or head injury?

If anyone has any information on those questions Id appreciate it. thank you.

To Early Morning » Fri Mar 23, 2012 10:04 am
Sorry for the delay, but I just found your post. Anyway I will attempt to answer your question.

The first thing to remember, is that we are all narcissistic to some degree, some theorists would say that it is a necessary part of development for building a cohesive Self. There appears to be a few critical development stages, the first happens in early stages of childhood, between 10 and 18 months of age, again between 3- 6 years, and yet again in the teenage years. The root cause of NPD seems to be due to social conditioning and parenting, so healthy narcissism can be thwarted when the child’s needs are not meet, usually by inadequate parenting or the lack of an empathic environment. The spectrum of narcissism is on continuum of 1 - 10, it ranges from Healthy Narcissism (1) all the way to Unhealthy Pathological Narcissism (10) thich results in the person suffering from a personality disorder.

Research by psychoanalysts and psychologists would say that people who develop NPD have experienced in either as a result of been spoilt in childhood by being made to feel they are more "special" than anyone else, or they were likely to have been abuse verbally, emotionally or physically. Either of these responses to a child (excessive mirroring or insufficient mirroring) can be considered as child abuse. As a result of either of these experiences, the individual is thin skinned and prone to shame. In order to survive, they develop a false self as a protection mechanism against attack from the outside world. I personally do not think this is the whole story of how unhealthy narcissism can develop.

For example, research in pre- and perinatal psychotherapy think it may go back even before birth…to the experiences of a hostile womb, when the foetus may be cut off from its mother (possibly from alcohol, smoking, rape trauma, amniocentesis etc.). All of these situations are life threatening to the unborn child, and sets up the individual’s deprivation pattern of need. As a result, the individual creates a protective barrier against the external hostile world.

In an article (Narcissism: Humanity’s Secret Weapon of Mass Destruction) by Shirley Ward, an Irish researcher of foetal consciousness. Her study is very interesting, it looks at womb-twin survival during the zygote stage of development. The zygote stage of development is known as the germinal period of development, and covers the time of conception to the implantation of the embryo in the uterus, I believe it last about two weeks. However, when things go wrong, one twin is lost, often without the mother even knowning that she was carrying twins. What happens is that one zygote splits and sucks the life out of the other zygote. Medically this is called twin-twin transfusion, one twin dies and their blood passes into the body of the surviving zygote, via the shared placenta. She suggests that perhaps this first experience sets up an imprint for the narcissist to live like a leech on other people, feeding off their weaknesses in order to survive themselves.

In my brother’s case I believe it may have been a combination of brutality from a hostile school environment during the 1950’s in holy Ireland, and a serious head injury from a fall out of an upstairs window onto concrete when he was 2 years of age, leaving him with frontal lobe damage to the brain (which is characterised by deterioration in behaviour and personality in a previously normal individual). When my brother was in his 30’s he had another serious head injury, after that he was impossibly violent, to the point of psychopathy........ it was just luck that he did not kill someone, he actually put three of his siblings in intensive care. His wife was seriously injured on numerous occasions due to his level of violence.

I don't know if this answers you question, but to be honest, I am less interested as to how the narcissistic personality becomes disordered, I prefer to leave that to other researchers. I am more interested in working with those people who are traumatized as a result of narcissistic abuse, and hopefully assisting their recovery.

EarlyMorning, people might not notice your question stuck up here in this thread - I think that you'd do better if you started a thread in the main forum below.

On another forum, I mentioned that I was narcissistic. A member responded, probably to be kind, said I probably wasn’t. Well, maybe not in the technical sense as defined by clinical or some other psychological system, but I’m pretty sure I am in the usual, “dictionary definition” of the word. I am vain, and have been since childhood. But my problem, maybe since my twenties, I’ve been conflicted about my looks. And looking good is deeply ingrained in my sense of self and self-esteem. It’s not all of it, but an integral part. It shouldn’t be, but it is. Now that I’m losing my looks, my sense of identity and what I have the possibility of being and doing, confidently and happily, is threatened. That’s my best analysis of the source of my depression and anxiety at this stage in my life. So maybe I don’t have body dysmorphia. Maybe it’s narcissism. Here are some comments on this thread.

Butterfly Faerie

Yes, I think I have tended to overeact to criticism. I can be very touchy, defensive, paranoid. I think I’ve tried to work on this, and not over-react, but how well I’ve been doing, I don’t know.

Do I “use others” to reach goals? Doesn’t everybody? Certainly I’ve sought out people’s help, but I think I also try to help others. So maybe I can be a little calculating---hey, I have to survive, don’t I---but I think I’ve been kind and helpful to others as well.

Do I exaggerate my own importance? Well, maybe I am important, and maybe my true importance won't be fully realized until I die. I don’t want to try to beat my head against a wall trying to get others to acknowledge my importance, if indeed it is above normal, but see no reason to put on a pretense of false humility. Maybe I’m important, maybe I’m not. It’s an open question.

Do I entertain unrealistic fantasies about achievements, power, beauty, intelligence or romance? Absolutely! I’ve done this for years. Power fantasies especially. They help me get to sleep many a night. Is it really so bad to dream? Who doesn’t?

"Has unreasonable expectations of favorable treatment". Absolutely “no” to this. On the contrary, I expect most people to treat me in a pleasantly dismissive way, as I usually perceive them doing. I don’t want favorable treatment, but I don’t like people or governments unjustly standing in my way. "Give me what I deserve! It's my right!" (I hear ya Lucinda.) I think I’m also considerate of other people’s freedoms and rights, and am conscientious about observing them.

Telling a (supposed) narcissist “Because you are obviously such an intelligent and sensitive person, I’m sure that, working together, we can get you past your current difficulties”, is very condescending and insulting. It positively drips with sarcasm. Should someone, however impeccable their “credentials”, with this much contempt for narcissists, be treating them?

I DO have empathy and compassion for others, very much so. I’m usually very polite. Yes, I’ve gotten into arguments with family members where we’ve had “words”, and they with me, I would think just about everybody has. I don’t consider myself “abusive” at all.

Thank you, Tyciol, for coming to our defense!

Maybe my narcissism (if that’s what I really have) is healthy. But since it seems to revolve very strongly around my physical appearance, as I age, it is becoming a problem for me. So I do need to adjust it. I don’t know how I’m going to do that or even if it’s my only problem. If the atheists and materialists are right, and death is just a dreamless sleep, maybe I can comfort myself with the knowledge that this heartache will all one day be over. On the other hand……

Undenied

I like these definitions much better. They don’t seem quite as judgemental.

I agree the very concept of narcissism is wide ranging and varying, yet, all who use the word, seem to agree they’re talking about essentially the same mindset.

Good point about the paradox of the narcissist being both self-centered and feeling worthless. That’s me to a T. At times I’m insufferably pleased with myself. At others, I’m ashamed of and hate myself. It’s a roller coaster ride.

I am secretly very jealous of young and good looking people. I envy and crave their youth and beauty so much it sickens me. I almost wish psychic vampirism were a reality (though I know it isn’t and can never be), as I’d feed off them if I could. I don’t hate them. Though I wish I'd spent it better, I’ve had my day in the sun. I’m not pleased with myself about this jealousy, but it’s very visceral and hard to control.

Yes, I’m a perfectionist. If I fall short of my ideals, physical or characterological, real or imagined, I feel terrible, ashamed.

Conclusions

Yes, I am fairly sure I am a narcissist. On the whole, I fit the profile. But I don’t know where I fit between the moderate and extreme range. I’m not the abusive, callous, histrionic, amoral cad that several people on this forum have been victims of. (I do wonder, BTW, if there were “two” in the “tango” of these relationships.) I think I’m pretty considerate, empathetic, and mild-mannered, all the while being rather self-absorbed and, non-violently, and ethically of course, calculating. I suppose I’m complex. Even my level of narcissism, whether healthy or not, I suspect is a major source of the intense anxiety I've been having since last fall. (It’s off and on, sometimes it’s not so bad, but it can come in unexpected surges). So, I need to come up with some “psychological devices” to deal with and cope with it.

Thank you all for this body of information.I suspected Narcissist Personality Disorder for my sister, now I'm sure of it. There are other factors going on, I''m sure, but she's more twisted on any day than I am on my regularly prescribed meds for bipolar 1. I observe and deal with my behavior, she is oblivious to hers, and anything goes (and I take the maximum amount of Lithium Carbonate because in this 18 year journey, it's needed to be that strong a couple times).And my sister says bipolar is an excuse.(At least I'm taking care of my illness.)But that doesn't matter if you have a masters and a high paying job with a computer firm...

This past Christmas, she wouldn't go up to the alter and pray with the pastor for our relationship(long-term bad) because I was a "sinner". Funny, sinners don't usually want to pray or ask the righteous to pray with them. We haven't heard from her since then --cards,Easter, Mother's Day, Birthday calls, nothing, though I have found out she's been in my neighborhood a few times. My mom (who's gotten this treatment, too) has asked that she not find out when she dies and that I take care of it as much of myself, that my sister find out years and years later, and by chance, only.

I tried to talk to my NPDgf about many of the traits Ive noticed and she got very upset, as expected, tried to turn the various traits around on to me, made excuses for each one, and basically made the conversation impossible to continue as it was going around a circle.

Any suggestions on how to work through this and make her aware that this might be a problem?

hey thr ,thank you so much for this article .lots of ppl say that we cant cure it ( i think it is a #######4) .if it cant be cured ,wht is therapist doing lolz.i believe it will be hard to cure them but where is a will ,there is a way .oh yea ,i heard before abt doing a drama that makes her/ him anger and guilty can cure it .so is this true ? i hope that you will reply me .i will wait .thank you

I have come to the conclusion that NPD is caused by using systemizing for everything and lacking mentalizing as explained here https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Empathizing%E2%80%93systemizing_theory

I also beleive that there is a fix for this and have broken through the life-long mentalization issue for a few hours and was actually able to feel content, connectedness, familiarity, security, acknoledgement of other people as equals and not means to an end and honest interest in them. This was brief but chemically induced, sadly, in combination with spontaneous adverse effects from an infection, for which reason I was not able to repeat it. I have been searching for chemicals that will enable this inhibited circuit permanently. All my reasearch led me to kappa opioid receptors and finally I condluded that the chemical ibogaine from the iboga tree might just do the trick. I plan on trying it. I would guess noone on this forum tried it, but if anyone has, please report.

Anxiety, anhedonia just as NPD(I deem anxiety and anhedonia the most prominent features of NPD) have no real cures. Basicly, sedatives are used for anxiety - that is not even remotely a viable treatment, no effective anxiety treatment exists that is not sedating. There is no treatment for anhedonia at all. Psych often push SSRIs to treat anhedonia and make it worse. Stimulants are a short term treatment making the issue worse in the long time because dopamine is not the primary reward circuit - opioid circuits are. And because opioid receptors are a medical taboo this creates the idea that opioid circuits can not be at fault. While we have no problems thinking that depression is lack of serotonin or dopamine or whatever and mania is extra dopamine etc, anxiety and anhedonia remain unmatched within neurotransmitter circuits and opioids remain unresearched and taboo. I'm not saying anhedonia is lack of heroin even though some might consider this to be true. Hell, even dr. house is dependent on vicodin. But the opioid system is responsible for hedonic tone and fear and anxiety and only in the recent few years have they research at least kappa opioid receptors that are infact anti-addictive and cause fear, terror, dysphoria and also mediate fear extinction. They show tremendous promise in animal testing from which I have extrapolated my reasoning. Add to that the reports of ibogaine experiences(after the trip) that were exactly what I expected to read. I like to jump to conclusions, our anxious minds do this, change perceptions to get us more stimulated.

It could be that I have just found a way to be an overt narc. If I am a narc I am definitely covert. But I think I'm onto something big. Still narcs like to delude ourselves into greatness so be warned. I will explore this further but wanted to share with any of you analytical minds interested.

dont mean to offend but the OP is just laughable. That information should be removed and the NPD mod should be a narc, or at least active in the forum. jmo