Difference between narcissism and NPD?

I don't think I'm NPD, but I think this forum made me realize NPD people are not all bad, maybe just a bit more power hungry.

sarah1101 wrote:I don't think I'm NPD, but I think this forum made me realize NPD people are not all bad, maybe just a bit more power hungry.

From all 4 Cluster B PDs, I think the NPD is the one least likely to be almost always damaging.

He has maligancy and belligerence like the BPD, but not as gratuitous. He isn't in the perpetual, twisted hell of emotions like the BPD. It happens here and there, and he knows why.

He has the need for attention the HPD does, but he does not satisfy with ANY attention. He wants social recognition, but in a more dignified way.

He has the remorseless and ambition of the ASPD, but "higher" ambitions, and he still needs somewhat of a social connection/recognition for his accomplishments. So a NPD person might lie, cheat and con you out of your money - but he won't kill you or commit another terrible crime unless he absolutely has to. He has an image to protect, specially from himself.

I think all 4 PDs on this category are all in all the same disorder - applying to different "temperaments"/type of people.

The NPD is the least likely to be flat out dangerous and usually is the one with more "normal" and socially acceptable traits, mannerisms and overall behaviors, but I still think these people damage a lot of lives in their path.

twistednerve wrote:The NPD is the least likely to be flat out dangerous and usually is the one with more "normal" and socially acceptable traits, mannerisms and overall behaviors, but I still think these people damage a lot of lives in their path.

Right.

Creating a highly functioning false self at a young age is not easy. A lot of people end up wallowing in self pity, but narcissists actually find the way out. It may not be the most healthy of ways to express themselves, but it is very effective.

Unique Username wrote:

twistednerve wrote:The NPD is the least likely to be flat out dangerous and usually is the one with more "normal" and socially acceptable traits, mannerisms and overall behaviors, but I still think these people damage a lot of lives in their path.

Right.

Creating a highly functioning false self at a young age is not easy. A lot of people end up wallowing in self pity, but narcissists actually find the way out. It may not be the most healthy of ways to express themselves, but it is very effective.

When I think of the damage a BPD can do, I think of lot's of stormy relationships, time spent fighting/cheating/etc and extreme cases neglect of the children and suicide. Death is irreversible, and suicides are particularly stigmatized and damaging. What is it the NPDs do that beats this? From what I understand, you're idealized then devalued - so your self esteem is undermined? Maybe with time, they will convince you things about yourself that aren't true and maybe even cause psychological harm/illness?

Also, I agree BPD and NPD are closely related. You could almost say a BPD by default has narcissistic qualities because how much they focus on themselves. Perhaps some people could get a BPD/NPD/HPD tri-diagnosis?

SomniferousAlmond wrote:

Unique Username wrote:

twistednerve wrote:The NPD is the least likely to be flat out dangerous and usually is the one with more "normal" and socially acceptable traits, mannerisms and overall behaviors, but I still think these people damage a lot of lives in their path.

Right.

Creating a highly functioning false self at a young age is not easy. A lot of people end up wallowing in self pity, but narcissists actually find the way out. It may not be the most healthy of ways to express themselves, but it is very effective.

When I think of the damage a BPD can do, I think of lot's of stormy relationships, time spent fighting/cheating/etc and extreme cases neglect of the children and suicide. Death is irreversible, and suicides are particularly stigmatized and damaging. What is it the NPDs do that beats this? From what I understand, you're idealized then devalued - so your self esteem is undermined? Maybe with time, they will convince you things about yourself that aren't true and maybe even cause psychological harm/illness?

Also, I agree BPD and NPD are closely related. You could almost say a BPD by default has narcissistic qualities because how much they focus on themselves. Perhaps some people could get a BPD/NPD/HPD tri-diagnosis?

I think BPD, NPD, HPD and ASPD are subtypes the same disorder. Some people display some traits of BPD, some traits of NPD, etc.. That goes for most mental illness, really. Rarely it will be symptoms of just ONE diagnosis criteria, and rarely someone will fill in all symptoms of a criteria. It's "some of this, some of that".

But back to Cluster B disorders: Yeah, I think they're the same disorder. And one individual will have traits of all 4, depending on where and when he is on his life, albeit one specific disorder might be more dominant.

Answering the original question, though:
NPD is a disorder. Narcissism is a adjective given to someone who preoccupy too much with themselves in a exceedingly vain manner. NPDs do that, yes, but waaaay more. Read the ICD and DSM descriptions, plus literature and studies (all free on the internet. specially if you don't mind piracy.)

In psychiatry, narcissism is an individual who has an exagerated importance on himself and has genuine inability or trouble relating to others in a healthy manner, equal to equal. Inflated sense of self, lack of identity, constant need for appraisal/approval, etc.. are part of the NPD disorder.
Sometimes it's used as a synonym to psychopathy/lack of empathy and the core feature of the Cluster B disorders, along with emotional disregulation.

Honestly, I believe NPDs are deeply troubled and unstable people, for a variey of reasons, and like BPDs, a lot of them just don't feel like they are alright. Ever. And a lot of their behaviors are more like masks and trying to make up for the bad stuff they feel. I don't think NPDs actually believe they are superior, on the contrary, most have very bad self esteems. I do believe though they are highly egotistical and put an extreme importance on status. Most Cluster Bs do, I think. They're after all, a bit psychopathic and quite more instinctive and intense. Brain differences, post-natal and pre-natal hormone disregulation play a huge part in this.

Read up on studies regarding hormones and differences on the brain of psychopaths to normal humans. BPDs specially have hormones waaaaay out of order.

NPDs, HPDs, BPDs and ASPDs all seem kind of hungry for a thrill.
Nothing is ever enough, yet everything, to the observer, is apparently too much.

Read up on psychopathic brains: Severe emotional intensity with a lack of perception of said emotion is proven to happen on the psychopathic brain on a lot of studies. So this explains it a bit.

This somewhat lights up mental illnesses many aspects and perspectives: How an individual feels, how he acts, how others perceive him and what is actually wrong/different biologically.

I believe Cluster B people don't feel well very often, and that they aren't alright in a wide array of brain/body functions.

Mental illness tend to be huge syndromes that encompasses a lot of the person.

Cluster B folk are disregulated in several ways and are so different from "more normal human beings" that all the stuff they do is literally the tip of the iceberg when it comes to understanding the illness and treatment. Saying someone is merely narcissistic is different from someone with NPD.

This is excellent and accords with my own understanding (from a Psych sister). Actually, she talked about brain studies for Psychopathy and it was in line with what you've said here. She also believed that pw personality disorders like NPD would almost certainly have some kind of brain damage; her comments are that she instinctively feels this is so and that time and neuroscientific tests will prove the case. However, when I questioned her on this as to whether brain injury cased NPD or NPD itself and lack of empathy caused 'injury' to a section of the brain she couldn't say. It is a chicken and egg situation, but I feel hopeful that neuroscientific endeavour will eventually unlock many of these secrets and effect therapeutic treatment, if not 'cure'. If the symptoms could be alleviated that would be great.

The similarity of symptoms and behaviours between personality disordered people do actually suggest almost all are "co-morbid". Almost all pwPD exhibit many of the same behaviours, it appears.

I read an article yesterday about the worldwide rise of "narcissism" as a characteristic and how that is being fostered by social media such as Twitter and Facebook. That's why I won't have a bar of any of that stuff - messageboards see enough egocentricity as it is.

One person I "know" through the net and who obviously is a pwNPD (from my research/reading) is these days confined to messageboarding in the form of telling jokes, single sentences, quizes and other ephemera - in short, being "minimally communicative" in order to 'make friends' (as Sam V says). It's both pathetic and sad. This is a person I once regarded as intelligent, but his instability and lack of emotional wellness has forced him into a niche where trivia meets the asinine. And he spends vast amounts of time on the internet doing such things, despite being married and having a child. People say "if it quacks like a duck and walks like a duck it IS a duck" and there's plenty of truth to this. Perhaps the person I thought of as clever was merely the False Face - the real one is much more like an idiot.

As Wilde said, "the truth is seldom pure and never simple". I could show you comments and contributions from this same person and you'd think it was somebody else - clever and knowledgeable. A constant conundrum or enigma?

GettingAdvice wrote:This is excellent and accords with my own understanding (from a Psych sister). Actually, she talked about brain studies for Psychopathy and it was in line with what you've said here. She also believed that pw personality disorders like NPD would almost certainly have some kind of brain damage; her comments are that she instinctively feels this is so and that time and neuroscientific tests will prove the case. However, when I questioned her on this as to whether brain injury cased NPD or NPD itself and lack of empathy caused 'injury' to a section of the brain she couldn't say. It is a chicken and egg situation, but I feel hopeful that neuroscientific endeavour will eventually unlock many of these secrets and effect therapeutic treatment, if not 'cure'. If the symptoms could be alleviated that would be great.

The similarity of symptoms and behaviours between personality disordered people do actually suggest almost all are "co-morbid". Almost all pwPD exhibit many of the same behaviours, it appears.

It is a chicken and the egg situation because, well, the person is still alive. All mental ilnesses have a cascade effect of their own. Plus life/psychological factors interacting. Life's chaos, man.
i also believe, maybe soon, as in no more than a century, most mental illnesses will have effective treatment. Gene targeting treatments will be a reality.

I read an article yesterday about the worldwide rise of "narcissism" as a characteristic and how that is being fostered by social media such as Twitter and Facebook. That's why I won't have a bar of any of that stuff - messageboards see enough egocentricity as it is.

You know, there's a psychiatrist with a blog (The last Psychiatrist) who talks a lot about narcissism being spread culturall in today's world. Well, individuality never was so high since the early 20th century. And it seems it will keep going. A LOT of popular figures who permeated the media and impacted global cultural seemed to be persons with personality disorders. Makes sense. Emerging media with terrific reach = more attention. We idolize concepts, bands, band members, actors - all for very vapid reasons. An individual that is more flashy and capable of creating things ON HIS OWN is highly valuable nowadays, whereas before good morals and tenance to community standards, with material stability were the preferable characteristics.

One person I "know" through the net and who obviously is a pwNPD (from my research/reading) is these days confined to messageboarding in the form of telling jokes, single sentences, quizes and other ephemera - in short, being "minimally communicative" in order to 'make friends' (as Sam V says). It's both pathetic and sad. This is a person I once regarded as intelligent, but his instability and lack of emotional wellness has forced him into a niche where trivia meets the asinine. And he spends vast amounts of time on the internet doing such things, despite being married and having a child. People say "if it quacks like a duck and walks like a duck it IS a duck" and there's plenty of truth to this. Perhaps the person I thought of as clever was merely the False Face - the real one is much more like an idiot.

I do believe people with any personality disorder oscilates a lot between genius and moron. Like, genuinely. They really can accomplish a lot for a while, but then something changes inside their organism and they adopt a completely different behavior. Any mental illness has it's ups and downs on cognition, well being, motivation, etc.., but NPDs, HPDs, BPDs and schizotypals specifically tend to literally change personality/identity/range of capabilities every now and then.

Bipolars do that too, but it's more of an energy thing, not as "whole" as PDs.

As Wilde said, "the truth is seldom pure and never simple". I could show you comments and contributions from this same person and you'd think it was somebody else - clever and knowledgeable. A constant conundrum or enigma?

Oscar Wilde showed Cluster B disorders so well. It amazes me.

And I believe it would seem someone else, if you want to show comments, please do.
But this can be something different from a "shift inside" on behavior/capacities/motivation. A lot of times, people with PDs tend to get "burnt out" of their character. BPDs, HPDs, NPDs and ASPDs tend to have different presentations of themselves depending where/when they are in their lives. And this seems to generate some conscious thought and things to keep track. Than one day, they just get tired of it.

I noticed mentioning these idendity-burn outs to BPDs whilst "not in character" makes them very depressed.

Am fascinated by your assessment of Oscar Wilde!! There's an excellent biography of him by Richard Ellman - essential reading and a very sympathetic treatment.

Your comments interested me about characteristics of pwNPD and changing 'roles'. You're suggesting it isn't as straightforward as "if it walks like a duck...."?

The person I knew had a couple of 'personality' incarnations over the 3.5 years I knew him. He'd email me and sign off sometimes as a different person - usually a public identity and/or his character. This was particularly so when something personal or remotely intimate crept into the conversation - it was as if he'd hide behind that false identity. I responded once, "to whom do I speak please?" He responded that it was part of the 'package' that was him. Oooo-kay.

He admired me because I'm intelligent and quick and have a 'take no prisoners' approach and I stand by that to this day. Also, I'm direct and say what I mean - no obfuscation - and called him out many times on his behaviour, ONLY TO HAVE HIM COME BACK AND BACK TO ME, OVER AND OVER AGAIN.

After I shafted him 18 months ago he seemed to discombobulate in the personality department. I felt it was 'decompensation', but from what you tell me this kind of behaviour is typical for Cluster B's. I stand by my initial instinct that this person is intelligent, despite the current asinine tendencies. But you're suggesting he's an idiot now because he's 'burned out' from pretending to be smart. Now I'M CONFUSED

GettingAdvice, do you think that there are any aspects of narcissism likely to be shared by the people who become close to them, such as self satisfaction with one's intellect for example, generating a sense of superiority? Or do you think that perhaps it's a case of the attraction of opposites, or complementary characteristics?

bitty wrote:GettingAdvice, do you think that there are any aspects of narcissism likely to be shared by the people who become close to them, such as self satisfaction with one's intellect for example, generating a sense of superiority? Or do you think that perhaps it's a case of the attraction of opposites, or complementary characteristics?

There are aspects of narcissism through the entire population generally. It's pathological when it affects the functioning of relationships and I don't think this necessarily applies to those who are initially engaged with narcissists. The nature of the attraction, whether 'opposites' or not, is a matter of chemistry and individual personality. Some people just mesh together, whether because of intellectual interests/similarities, thinking, backgrounds, sensibilities and I believe it's perfectly possible for a pwNPD to be attracted to a like-minded person just as most people are. The problem occurs AFTER that attraction - whether between friends or lovers - and a pwNPD is unlikely to be able to maintain a mature relationship because of his/her issues. I cannot imagine how painful it is to always know that something which starts so promisingly is doomed to fail - each and every time.