Difference between narcissism and NPD?

Psychiatrophobia hahaha. You and me both:-)

uniquelyme wrote:
Oh, but there's always public involvement if that person you told or saw something about you is still living. Remember that the human brain remembers things they are not supposed to (and forgets what it should). You ever heard the expression something along the lines of "I only told you and only you. That means if someone else finds out, I know who said someting and I know who to go after?" But even then, it's all too late.
The kind of reputation I want must be a good one. It has to be a perfect one because if not, people will not accept you.

That's completely wrong although I completely relate

You remember your reputation stains, they hurt you. People who've witnessed your reputation stains remind you of them and cause a change in your emotional state affecting behavior to be antagonistic. "They know your weakness, they are ahead, so you must protect".
You feel inferior to them because they know your mistakes and you don't know theirs. Antagonistic behavior(defensive) causes people to treat you agonisticaly(attack) and validate your fear that your reputation still is tainted. Antagonistic behavior invites agonism. This is natural.

People who are afraid of dogs get attacked by dogs automatically. The dogs sense antagonism and develop agonism instantly and attack

So, it's like a self-fulfilling prophecy.

The right way to go about it is to mend your mistakes the best way you can and and extinct the fear that causes antagonism which will enable you to feel equal again.

I've had the "luxury" of dealing with people up close in order to study every movement they make. And if they see something that they don't like, even a temporary flaw, they will not accept you as a person.

You do not accept yourself as a person which is why your wellbeing depends on other people accepting you as a person.

Why would you need to feel bad around people who are so low on self-esteem they need to constantly devalue others? There's no explanation except the one I gave.

I've been shown this throughout my life so it's not really delusional paranoia. Paranoia maybe, but I have good reason based on proof I've seen. (which I won't go into here)

Yes it is. Paranoia is evident from the fact that this situation makes you feel bad or angry. Lack of confidence make you passive-aggressive.

Of course I've had constant putdowns. I grew up with zero validation. I fought every odd against me to be where and who I am today. When I look at people I grew up with who had more than me, I know how great I am because I overcame everything. Many of them became single mothers and drug addicts and drug dealers. I, on the other hand, leIt with what little I had at a young age and knew I didn't want "that lifestyle". I've always found a way to upgrade my life in some way. I always do the best that I can do at the time. And even then, ther's still more. Always onto the next, newest, biggest thing whether it be a place, job, or relationship. I have little time to be empathetic to people to find out what their story is. Everyone has a story, but few are truthful. So I show little to no empathy towards anyone.

No time to chat, fear of failure->death is threatening?

When you discover ways to give me power in reaction to people's attacking me, let me know. I'm still learning.

Awareness, as explained above. When you understand people are attacking because of their own flaws - you will feel superior to them. In this feeling of superiority you will find ability to control both yourself and the situation in a way that is inaccessible to the person attacking you.

Sometimes though, my mouth gives them shock value. I can't believe how people think I'm stupid and will sit there and be ###$ in the ass. It's like they expect it.

As explained, you invite it with antagonistic behavior caused by your own fears.


I am a very sensitive person and have been a people pleaser all my life and I have a serious chip on my shoulder because of that. I have always felt that people pick on me most for some reason. Bad things happen to me for some reason, etc. I relate to most of what you're saying

But what I have learned about people and the mind helped me finally understand how things work and I have been able to easily control situations since then while the people that normally intimidated me started to become "owned" by the situation, burst in anger and retreat with me not breaking a sweat.

You see, if I attack the person back or even worse, defend, there's nothing coming from that. I still feel weaker. When I become "aware" of the truth of the situation I become able to control the situation, not just myself.
And you beat the person by excercising control of the situation in such a manner that they are left defeated by the situation, not by you directly. They can't blame you and feel self-defeated. They might rage if they're childish but it will not cause a single hair in your body to twitch because you didnt beat them, the situation did, they beat themselves by attacking you while the situation came down on them.
If I had to explain I would say that the situation is controlled by creating a mirror that reflects attacks. The mirror is crafted by becoming aware of people in the situation and their true intent and creating "the situation", "the mirror".
The mirror reflects to people from the perspective of the situation and not from your own. This way you can't make a wrong move and are not emotionally involved with yourself.
It enables you to emotionally notice others. It also makes you safe, because you have the situation-mirror that's really doing the battling. The situation-mirror eventually creates a situation where the other person starts attacking reality(the situation) instead of attacking you.
They start arguing with reality and losing coherence. And finally you will see before you the person you were fighting with is completely able to fight with themselves if you only put a mirror of reality in front of them.
You need to calmly assert the mirror as only a reminder for reality. It must be a true reality mirror and not your own ego.
They self-defeat themselves. I have noticed most people tend to realize this somewhere along the line and retreat and stop fighting.

I've been doing this in a corporate environment for a couple of weeks. I have already become greatly stress and subjugated by the company for which my company works for. 20 of them sit here every day and devalue everything and yet couldnt walk a dog across a street if they had to. They're completely incompetent, spoilt, lazy and yet they control how the software is being created. Can you imagine that organization? We are being told how to make a software by 50-100 people who are regular users. There isn't a single person on their side responsible for their requests to make sense and work with each other. So you can imagine how much blame they need to assign to us programmers. They dont know what they want but want something anyway and then they'll see if that's what they want but everything under the tightest deadline possible. They're all infact clients and they all escalate to the board of directors any bad word directed at them. So you can imagine the narcissism that develops in such conditions.

Since I have started doing this they've completely lost the ability to upset me. And I have made them argue with reality and self-defeat numerous times. They have now started to back off and are being more polite and curteous. They have also not escalated anything and are infact becoming more "happy" now. Just as I was faking "happy" while I felt intimidated by them. I have not commited a single angry act and yet they are not feeling superior anymore. The reality of the situation is that we need to make a software and if you make them battle this instead of battling you, they can't beat you and they should try to beat the situation because that means they don't want to work, if you're reflecting it properly - it will actually come out of their mouths sometimes. And then they'll make a joke about it.

This is the essence of communication IMO. There is an egocentric view of both opponents and a situationcentric view. If any of the two people hold up the situationcentric view communication is fautless. If neither do, communication is horrible and ends up as attack/defense.
Each person is reflected from the central situation which is agreed upon(but noone cares about it normally).

SillySalmon wrote:What distinguishes a narcissistic person from someone who has NPD??

think of a continuum. We all have some Narcissistic traits - a healthy person will. But the number of traits becomes dysfunctional. Per the DSM 4, more than 5 of the 9 traits puts someone into the NPD, or disorder category. The DSM 4 lists:
A pervasive pattern of grandiosity (in fantasy or behavior), need for admiration, and lack of empathy, beginning by early adulthood and present in a variety of contexts, as indicated by five (or more) of the following:
(1) has a grandiose sense of self-importance (e.g., exaggerates achievements and talents, expects to be recognized as superior without commensurate achievements)
(2) is preoccupied with fantasies of unlimited success, power, brilliance, beauty, or ideal love
(3) believes that he or she is "special" and unique and can only be understood by, or should associate with, other special or high-status people (or institutions)
(4) requires excessive admiration
(5) has a sense of entitlement, i.e., unreasonable expectations of especially favorable treatment or automatic compliance with his or her expectations
(6) is interpersonally exploitative, i.e., takes advantage of others to achieve his or her own ends
(7) lacks empathy: is unwilling to recognize or identify with the feelings and needs of others
(8) is often envious of others or believes that others are envious of him or her
(9) shows arrogant, haughty behaviors or attitudes

While this seems to be a good list, until you've been in a relationship with a strong Narcissistic person or someone actually diagnosed with NPD (which is hard to do), you don't really understand the negative impact of the disorder on other people. After 2.5 years, I am just really understanding the impact. Most therapists focus on moving forward and putting the relationship behind, but it is not easily done in the aftermath of a pathologic relationship. You need to understand you didn't really have a relationship - a tough concept to accept. I have read many many books, including Sam Vaknin (also checkout YouTube for his talks), but the best books that REALLY discuss the impact on the non-pathologic are Sandra L. Brown's "Women Who Love Psychopaths...", and "How to Spot A Dangerous Man Before You Get Involved". In reading these, I read of behaviors and dialogs that eerily "documented" my experience. Brown also describes how personalities impact each other.
A good website with articles that also echo the situation I am unfortunately familiar with is, psychopathyawareness.wordpress.com. There are many sites and books, but these really hit home in describing the pathologic relationship and aftermath.
He [the ex] once asked me if I knew I was getting a "Dr Jekyll and Mr Hyde", No. He also said he wasn't sure he could let anyone "in". This is of course after the honeymoon period where I thought we had the same definitions of Love and Commitment as we planned the future. For the strong Narcissist or NPD, a "relationship" is only "for now", as long as he's not bored or doesn't perceive a challenge from his Narcissistic Supply. The revised history, gaslighting, lies, mixed messages, blame, in addition to the sudden change in behaviors (Mr Charming becomes Mr Vent and Anger) took it's toll.
It's taken me quite a long time to understand that there really was no relationship. With him, I was an object, useful for a time, then devalued and discarded [like trash], and I didn't know what hit.
Finally, I see my situation.

Pat
It's taken me quite a long time to understand that there really was no relationship. With him, I was an object, useful for a time,

Agree with your post. A relationship with a pathological narc can be very destructive, leaving you feeling insecure and lost, drained dry. Not to mention confused, shellshocked.
And to grasp the concept that a person does not, can not love, has no empathy is almost impossible unless you have had first hand experience of a narcissistic/psychopathic dynamic.
This is the problem with neglected/abused children, people find it hard to believe a mother/father could truly be out to torment, destroy their own child, just for the fun.

I have posted on a similar topic (yet to appear!), before seeing this interesting topic.

I find it relevant because I have had two or three possible "narcissistic" people in my life, all different.

1. A short-term boyfriend I had. Probably the most extreme Narcissist. Fulfilled ALL the criteria, and how, it was clear fairly straight of the bat that things weren't right. Vanity, self-importance, rage, devaluation triangulation, etc ect.

2. My Mother. Always thought she could NOT be a Narcissist, because she didn't really have the boasting, self-aggrandisement aspects. Liked to look nice and very concerned with clothes, but not over-the-top with appearance, just good at self-care. But recently decided she could have very strong narcissistic traits. UNMISTAKABLE Narcissistic Rage, I don't think you can mistake that one if you experience it - irrational and shocking. False self and defences. Inability to reflect or change. Temper tantrums. Selfishness. With-holding, etc.

But some of the other characteristics, much less frequent or severe. E.g Competing, criticising, favouritism, phony, ignoring, martyrdom, objectifying, secretive, refusing responsibility, smear campaigns, scaring, etc - ALL took place but not to the degree of the man I knew. I also think my mother was capable of empathy at times. But ultimately, her relationship with me was also destructive, if not quite as extreme as 1.

Finally, I also had a friend with Narcissistic traits! But though she fulfilled most of the criteria, and so I think ultimately did have a real problem, it was on a low level. She could also be great fun and had some empathy, sense of real feeling - glimpsed occasionally. However, our friendship ended because I ultimately did get tired of her self-obsession, mini tantrums, and feeling like she competed with me all the time on some level!

P.S. My particular question I would love to have some thoughts on is re. scenario 2 of my mother. Do you think you can have a serious Narcissism problem without the obvious self-adulation and boasting aspects - but all the other main traits, as I described in 2?

Thanks.

I think that personality disorders in general are pretty much things that everyone does sometimes, but what makes them disorders is that you do them to the extent that it screws up your daily life.

Don't fall into the trap of attributing mental illnesses to everyone who gets on your nerves. That way lies madness.

I did not read the posts above I wanted to answer the question itself

For me the difference between the feeling and the "disorder" is...

That the feeling is just what some bitch feels just because he/she didn't get what they want so they throw a hissy fit.

The real thing the NPD is the struggle. The struggle trying to really love and not just for your own ends. Feeling like some barrier is there between you and the world. Let me tell you that is a struggle when you don't accept yourself.

But like I said before and I will say again so what if you feel love and its for your own ends? The main thing is you do feel love, you do feel happiness. You don't throw away the crystal just because it is embedded in the rock from which it formed. You buy the crystal how it is because the rock is part of it just as is the crystal. Just accept it if you do feel the emotions because at least you do and people with many other disorders struggle to feel even happiness.

I have my views. Don't like it? Move on

I'm quite new to the board. I am wondering if one Can be NPD just with certain people? I remember I treated a guy in that way, but it was not my intention to hurt him. It is just that after 1 month he started to make me ill that I had to withdraw, and then he was crying and saying things to make me come back, that made me feel he was very selfish trying to manipulate my compassion. Just today, I suddenly realized I was NPD with that guy. He was basically with an empty me, I faked the passion. In the end he said many times that I am not normal. If he ever comes back, I will make him suffer even more because he offended me by thinking he can own me and by making me do things with him.
I know it is weird that I came here to seek help with the NPD I met and then found out I was the same way with someone before.

I will check if I match the description.
NPD
- Lacks empathy - sees no wrong in personally attacking others, or completely ignoring you
I have compassion towards animals and people, but I have no compassion for those who try to control me.

- Being told "no" comes off as a personal attack.
I don't really care if strangers say no to me, but I get angry easily with little things closer people do and say.

- Is oblivious to his own disorder

I never think I have disorder.

- Treats others as sub-human, but sees it as "they way it should be"
Those who offend me are sub humans.

- Has few friends
I have no friend.

- Is asocial when no attention from others is available
right.


So am I NPD????

sarah1101 wrote:I'm quite new to the board. I am wondering if one Can be NPD just with certain people?

No.

@sarah,

What you're doing in your post above is an example of pathologizing relatively normal human behavior and turning it into a personality disorder, or in this case, merging it with an existing personality disorder. The behaviors that you claim to exhibit, as described in your post, might be unpleasant to those around you, but that does not a personality disorder make. Too many people think that "personality disorder" is just a psychobabble term for someone who thinks of themselves and not the other person, or someone who acts in socially troublesome or dramatic or eccentric ways. That's not really what personality disorders are though, despite the tendency by some to see personality disorders everywhere.

A personality disorder is a very specific organization of the psyche. A PD isn't really about a list of traits and behaviors, as much as it is about what's going on internally that results in the traits and behaviors traditionally used for diagnosis. Also, a disordered personality exists in perpetuity. It is a permanent state of being, absent attempting to unravel it and heal via psychotherapy. While behaviors and traits are situational, the state of being of a person with a PD doesn't really change.

So no, I don't think that it's a good idea to infer a personality disorder from the manner in which you acted slightly selfishly or callous around a particular former significant other. Pathologizing all human behavior, and deciding that everyone who once dumped someone else has NPD, isn't particularly helpful to anyone. Pretty much everyone displays a wide-range of human behaviors, and not all are going to be pleasant all the time.