Difference between narcissism and NPD?

I think what this thread is really trying to get at, ultimately, is how does one differentiate between someone with NPD and someone who does not have NPD but who exhibits some noticeable level of Narcissism.

The answer to that question is actually quite simple. In the Non-NPD with Narcissism, the Narcissism is usually the result of some accomplishment, achievement, or life event as a young adult or adult. For example, someone who grows up poor or middle class, has a natural talent for singing, and goes on to become a pop star earning 4 million dollars annually is also someone prone to developing Narcissistic traits, even though they were a perfectly normal neurotypical before all of this happened. They might ditch their old friends, use women as sex objects, buy only the finest things, associate only with other high status people, etc. Everyone then looks at this person and thinks that they are a pwNPD, when, in fact, they are just a regular person who became Narcissistic as the result of a life event that gave them a big head.

Similarly, you could also have a 24 year old girl, who knows she is in her sexual prime, who wasn't particularly attractive at age 14, but who has finally come into her own, and who realizes she now gets a lot of male attention that she never got before. She may develop compensatory Narcissism, and begin to wear eye-catching clothing and refuse to talk to men she views as beneath her. Again, not NPD, just a Non whose head got big, and who is maybe compensating for secretly feeling that she's still the 14 year old girl that no one noticed.

Someone with NPD, however, has a Narcissism that is either primary or that began so early in life that it takes years of self-reflection and/or therapy to dig out what the reasons might be. So the grandiosity in the person with NPD isn't the result of an achievement, accomplishment, or big life change. It's just there. And the achievements, accomplishments, etc, of the person with NPD will simply serve as evidence for the pwNPD of his already-existent grandiosity, while with Nons with Narcissism, those achievements, etc, are the cause of their Narcissism. That's why someone with NPD who makes 40,000 dollars a year will score higher on the NPI than a celebrity who makes 4 million dollars a year. The pwNPD's grandiosity is not something that became added to their sense of self as the result of becoming rich, famous, attractive, or successful. The pwNPD's grandiosity IS that person's sense of self. And it generally has been for as long as that person can remember.

Beautifully stated.

That's one side of it, though. It has more symptoms and traits, usually.

Also, I really don't think NPD is just one group of symptoms. I think it encompasses different disorders (and behaviors deemed disordered) altogether.

For some it's the status seeking psychopath.

For others it's the grandiose attention seeker.

And there's the competitive, envy fueled frustrated little king.


Somehow, I find the best example of the typically diagnosed NPD, to be Eric Cartman. lol

twistednerve wrote:Bitty, I don't mean to make this a place where you feel attacked. I know narcs rarely talk about their issues and admit it as a disorder. Hell, I kinda don't. lol

But I do imagine it is hard to come out only to be seen as a monster.
Us Cluster Cs or Cluster As like creative_nothing actually go thorugh something similar.

"I'm avoidant!" "....stop being a wuss. You're really nice, I don't want to hurt your feelings and all, but learn how to be fun every once in a while"
"I'm OCPD!" "....you're just annoying, keep it to yourself."
"I'm schizotypal!" "....Weirdo McOddpants finally got something right. Pff, know it all."



PDs have that magical ability to gain no sympathy frmo other people, like schizos, bipolars or depressives would. lol Plus, I think PD'd people get even more hurt when talking about or hearing about their disorders because its not something that gets nullified with medication or is seen as "apart from themselves". It's THEM. Like a homosexual.

Thanks, twistednerve. I honestly don't think that cluster As, Cs, or even other Bs evoke a similar reaction to NPDers, though.

Thanks again, though.

bitty.

Has anyone noticed that Sam Vaknin seems to be taking a more considered approach to this condition lately? I recently watched an interview with him on Ruth Jacobs' YouTube channel. See what you think.

solstice1962 wrote:Has anyone noticed that Sam Vaknin seems to be taking a more considered approach to this condition lately? I recently watched an interview with him on Ruth Jacobs' YouTube channel. See what you think.

I thought that was a very good interview. But how would you say it is different from previous Vaknin interviews? Perhaps less sensational?

I think that Vaknin made very good points about how the Narcissist's true self never really develops, and sort of atrophies away, and thus the Narcissist is left with just the false self that develops in reaction to the world around him. Also I think that Vaknin is correct that the Narcissist's self is fragmented and not integrated. And finally, I think that he is onto something when he says that while behaviors can be changed, the Narcissist never really becomes a Non, no matter what happens (and this is partially due to the Narcissist being stuck with his fragmented self and false self and the ship having sailed on the true self, though this point is probably one of disagreement among many).

Esquire wrote:The Narc does not need others to validate his emotions. His emotions are valid simply because he feels them and is experiencing them. This makes them prima facie valid. Anything else will not be considered, because the Narc cares about one thing in the entire universe: himself.

And then:

My Username wrote:Example: I flirt heavily with a girl at the bar, and she actively ignores me after I get her a drink. I feel as though she is a cold hard bitch and I am the one who was unfairly treated.

Most people want friends to validate their feelings; most people want friends to reassure them that they are correct in feeling angry/sad.

For Ns, they KNOW their feelings are correct, merely because they exist to them. No matter how obscure, no validation is needed because no one else's word will ever over power the N's.

I've read more than one person say they identified with Aspergers. I came to the same conclusion about myself many times. I think you guys are touching on why.

It sounds like everyday interaction for nons is (from my disordered perspective) a ritualized social bonding, the equivalent of monkeys grooming each other. They depend on themselves for their well-being. This reminds me of how the word "intercourse" in older English described conversation. There is an intimacy from everyday "stroking" (responsiveness) the N doesn't get? The mirror stands between them. Conversation is masturbation?

I wonder if that could be why some Ns(?) seem to identify with Aspergers? They sense that they don't connect in a genuine/vulnerable way to others. There's something dulled about it. Not on the same wavelength.

That could be a way to describe how someone is effected by N traits compared to narcissism.

One recent example comes to my mind: A neighbor ran into me at the grocery store and said "Hey, the way you did your front yard turned out great." I remember thanking him awkwardly and feeling uncomfortable. Not that it was a superficial "small talk" (an Aspergers might think to himself, "would you tell me if it turned out bad?"), but that it never occurred to me it could turn out bad. The simple comment made me feel like it was compared to some standard I wasn't aware of. A non would feel some conversational love-making had occurred?

I've always attributed that kind of reaction to being modest when it was probably the above.

Sometimes I identify a lot with NPD... I can trace it to how I was raised by my BPD mother, though. I had strong NPD and HPD traits when I was younger, but I feel as if I could "let go" of them, specially when I traced the source of it. They used to be a source of anxiety and stress, deep down. I still feel fragmented, but I feel like I can develop a more genuine self (from my perspective).

I'm not sure I have NPD, though. I don't qualify for a lot of the BPD, HPD, NPD or ASPD traits. I definetely have the fragmentation and lack of identity, sometimes, though. I think I'm a non that was conditioned and exposed to think/feel/see things from that perspective.

As the Non spouse of a Narc and the mother of a possible little Narc, I would lean on the Nature side of the Nature vs Nurture debate. My Narc husband, K, came from a long line of Narcs, with his mom being one of the most unbearable Narcs I have ever come across in my existence. 5 minutes into any co-sharing of time-space and she would start criticizing/picking/complaining about almost anything and everything, especially me, the prime Narc target in her vicinity. She has her own unhappy memories of her father, and couldn't seem to get over his "insults". I have no idea if her father was truly a Narc as she sees offense is every remark.

K's logic and worldview are, to my Non observation, frequently split, extreme and fragmented. He is acutely sensitive, perceiving attacks when none are meant, and go on the defense-offense accordingly.

My daughter, P, was a screaming, hyper-stressed baby from the go, frightened by everyone and everything. She wouldn't stop crying throughout her first year and it took hours of rocking and soothing to lure her to sleep. My Non son was a much easier new arrival to cope with, laughing, gurgling. I love both dearly, but I worry a lot about my little girl, as she is driving away friends and foes alike.

Needless to say I feel completely battered, black and blue, and almost suicidal. I have issues of co-dependency, I suspect, from an abusive childhood at the hands of my stepmother. I am slowly getting on my feet, and trying to find a way to co-exist with K and my daughter without being emotionally mauled by them.

Pangloss wrote:Needless to say I feel completely battered, black and blue, and almost suicidal. I have issues of co-dependency, I suspect, from an abusive childhood at the hands of my stepmother. I am slowly getting on my feet, and trying to find a way to co-exist with K and my daughter without being emotionally mauled by them.

I'm sure others know about how a codependent and N work together. But, it seems like a bad fit if you're aware of your issues and working on them, but your husband isn't. If he was, I could see it working. At least things could be talked about. But, if he's unaware of his condition, I don't think it would be good for you.