Difference between narcissism and NPD?

Thanks to Ali for sticking this thread at the top. My post along with Virginias will answer many questions, prevent unnecessary threads, and inspire more intelligent questions and answers.

VirginiaEsquire wrote:Most Narcissists, I suspect, rarely have their feelings validated. Narcissists wallow in self-pity. Every slight, every bruise, everything that's happened in our lives that fell short of perfection, or that's left us less happy than we could be, is something that we ruminate on and voice our displeasure about.

The Narc does not need others to validate his emotions. His emotions are valid simply because he feels them and is experiencing them. This makes them prima facie valid. Anything else will not be considered, because the Narc cares about one thing in the entire universe: himself.

This contradiction seems rediculous to nons, but in reality it is spot on. The lack of validation, along with the compulsion to be perfect, is ongoing and irreversible. No one can save the narcissist except himself, yet his bad habits and self distructive mindset are deeply ingrained in his personality.

What is the meaning of "having your feelings validated by others"?

self wrote:What is the meaning of "having your feelings validated by others"?

Example: I flirt heavily with a girl at the bar, and she actively ignores me after I get her a drink. I feel as though she is a cold hard bitch and I am the one who was unfairly treated.

Most people want friends to validate their feelings; most people want friends to reassure them that they are correct in feeling angry/sad.

For Ns, they KNOW their feelings are correct, merely because they exist to them. No matter how obscure, no validation is needed because no one else's word will ever over power the N's.

The reason why, is because there was a severe lack of validation as a child. This taught the N to trust his own perception and self validate.

The problem is, if you validate all emotions on your own, you start creating a fantasy world where your feelings are always correct, under all circumstances. Someone tells you not to leave your plate on the counter, you feel enraged, and rightly so.

Thank you for that explanation.

Also thanks for the explanation, but these are not the only two alternatives. some people use logic to validate their feelings, so while it could make them seem more self-centred than most because they don't seem so responsive, it doesn't have the same implications, and also is not a barrier to them taking the feelings of others into account when figuring things out.

They might just be very private people who reserve feeling "validated" from people who are very close to them and who they trust, which may mean at times they don't seek out "validation" at all. This isn't necessarily much to do with narcissism so much as just not wanting to be that emotionally intimate with most people - and/or finding it difficult, or that it does not come naturally.

You could label them guarded, insensitive or cold, you could speculate a lot about what brought them to that point, but it doesn't necessarily mean they have NPD. For these people "having your feelings validated" does not mean checking with others to see if they are valid - perhaps they believe all feelings are inherently valid but that people sometimes need to make sure they're coming from where they think they are.

Seeing that friends often automatically validate feelings anyway, whether they're arrived at with a clear head or not, seeking so much validation externally doesn't necessarily solve that problem. What validation really assures a person of is acceptance.

What I believe is that feelings cannot be "invalid" though sometimes it might be necessary to check if they are related to what you think they are or if you have your information right. This is the case for everyone, its not about superiority or inferiority, its actually about believing you have the right to exist, and to feel as you do. i.e. have some self-esteem. Validation is so you know those around you care about you and accept you.

MissAli wrote:I have moved this up, and will be monitoring this thread to ensure that people do not attack, but however come here to use this post to further their knowledge and understanding.

Tempting, and I can think of few whose eyes I'd rather have watching my every move.

Narcissists validate their false selves, not their emotions.

The narcissist is a person without a self(or the self is deeply repressed). He is a person who meticulously works on creating an artificial self. Since the artificial avatar/false self is created/sustained by the PFC logic circuit it has no choice but to include all known data/memories and work out the best logical solution for a "self" from all that. A logic circuit has no choice but to do this perfectly - it can not create a "flawed" concept of "self" unless there is a purpose to this flaw which means it's not a flaw. Although some are obviously smarter than others and also went through different life experiences.

So the narcissists plans his grandiose life including his role in it - he plans himself to be perfect. The academic achievement, the throphy wife, the luxury car, the perfect house, the muscles, the clothes whatever he conjurs up from observing the environment. He buys the car, it's a part of the plan. He does not really want the car for the car. It really just a part of the plan. He validates that his plan is working by reflecting in others. He needs to see envy to know it's working. He invites people over to admire him. He shows off his new achievements etc etc. He validates his "script" is correct, his plans are good and he is executing them succesfully.

Notice the tendency in NPD for blanket statements and generalizations, forcing their opinion on everyone etc. It's all a function of testing the "script" or proving to himself that it is correct or desperately defending a part of the script that's there to hide the emptyness inside.

Also notice that the NPDers entire persona is a single megastructure script/avatar/false self that runs off as a black&white logical strategy to satisfy a single lifelong desire/fear. This lifelong desire/fear never "releases" the logical behavior-megastructure/avatar/false self.

As for the topic at hand. I'd postulate a single criteria for NPD vs. anything else:

Lifelong inability to fathom or comprehend a truly selfless act of will as nothing other than stupidity/mistake/weakness.

addx wrote:Narcissists validate their false selves, not their emotions

Actually, the exact opposite. Narcissists are reliant on external validation of their false self to feel that they even exist. Also, they DO validate their own emotions.

Example: Ns get mad when others don't follow their script, but simply tune out people with altering view points as them. This shows how they are confident in their opinions\emotions, but not so much in their fragile, house of cards which we call the false selves.



You mean to say: Narcissists SEEK to validate their false self while neglecting emotions.

Or

OTHERS validate their false self, NARCISSISTS validate their own emotions.

Well,

I guess i'm a narcissist. Done some self testing after my psychiatrist told me I exhibit some of the traits. My first feeling when I heard that was pride and couldn't resist a little smile, quickly correcting myself and telling her "well as long as I don't do any harm it's not that bad is it?". With the response "that's right, it's just good to know this about yourself in some cases" I felt satisfied.

It must be said that i'm not an extreme narcissist, but I do say and do things that are out of the norm in many ways. This woman at work sneered at me for no reason at all in my mind. Immediately I 'talked some sense into her', with all my coworkers clearly being able to see how wise and calm I handled the situation. I quickly made her say sorry when no apologies were needed really. I knew she was in a difficult situation at home, she got beaten by her ex boyfriend who took her kids away from her. After work our little argument was talked through but I couldn't resist giving her the feeling she deserved what her ex did to her. Not by clearly saying this, but by suggesting that maybe he had his reasons. After only a few minutes of talking I got her thinking about what she could do to change herself. Instilling this doubt in her gave me much gratification. I know this is wrong. I know I should feel regret... But I don't.

I know this guy who's into selling drugs. A few weeks ago he approached me out of nothing on a party and complimented me on my intellectual abilities. Not only this, he also admired my calmness and my calculative nature. He said he needed someone like me because he wants to "grow bigger" and needs someone to guide him into the right direction. Flattered and honored I listened to his proposal as he sparked my curiosity of course. In the back of my mind I was very wary of him manipulating me for his own gain so I thought of a plan to make this conversation a lot of fun since i'm not interested in dealing drugs. I told him I would only be interested in a sort of mafia instead of ghetto thug-style partnership. Told him my goal would be to see how corrupt I could get the local police department and out-compete local coffeeshops selling weed (i'm Dutch). Then I told him "my abilities are not cheap" and I wanted an exact 50% cut of all profit. He was ecstatic when I quickly disappointed him by telling him I was kidding and that my abilities were not for sale. My heart skipped a beat because I put myself above him while in the beginning he wanted me under him. I won. I felt joy.

Although I have not finished any post highschool education I have grandiose plans for making a business. I'm close already, doing it with a friend. The plan is inventive and fairly failure proof. The inspiration was some 21 year old guy I met that made 6 figures while i'm 23 and lived on welfare (that I lied, cheated and acted myself into so I didn't have to work).

I have a psychiatric diagnosis totally unrelated to my narcissism, and part of that was an iq test which resulted in 116. I have done lots of research just to find the patterns in which iq tests are built. Now I can reach 140-150 on any test while i'm not even close to that actual level. I do this solely to impress. People often applaud my intellect but really I know I don't deserve it. But the compliments just feel so good...

Never in my life have I felt a real connection to anyone but my little brother. No one, not even my mom. There is some connection there but I just don't 'feel it'. Probably something most people won't understand, and shamefully I have to admit that I don't either.

I have manipulated women into bed. I have scared them into bed. I have made them cry in the bed because I treated them like a whore. I have had sex with married women with children. I kissed one of them in front of her stepson. One was called by her 18 year old son naked in the bed and I consciously asked her (quite loudly) who she was talking to. He could hear me for sure, while he was aware she would be gone to some (girl)friends that day. She angrily told me to be quiet afterwards. I tell this story often which makes guys laugh and respect me. It makes women think i'm a badboy resulting in them wanting me.

I believe the difference between a plain asshole and a narcissist is... The asshole is just like this. The narcissist wants and PLANS to be like this.

Really, I don't think I am like this. I also don't think I want to be like this. The standards I set myself are too high and I want to experience positive relationships instead of slowly descending into abusive ones.

Of course there is lots more, these are just recent examples.

I think I might ask for help the next time I see my psychiatrist. I also think that tomorrow when I wake up I find my arrogant manipulative self thinking I was weak last night. I also fear that deep down i'm writing all this just to impress the readers on here. I'm not really sure what my intentions are, I apologize for that because I might have stolen some of your precious time.

So thanks for this topic I guess.

MrNarcotic wrote:I believe the difference between a plain asshole and a narcissist is... The asshole is just like this. The narcissist wants and PLANS to be like this.

This is the exact opposite of the truth. Narcissists don't plan much - their manipulative behaviors are subconscious and reflexive. "Assholes" know they are assholes, and like the attention of being an asshole because they know no other way to get attention.

"Assholes" try, narcissists are.

The whole point of this thread, MrNarcotic, is to explain how NPD is different than your typical narcissist, or "asshole". As you seem to fall into the "narcissist" category, your insight may be better used to analyze why you became such, as opposed to assuming information about a breed totally different than your own. Thank you for your contribution, though, but if you want to tell stories about your life, feel free to create your own thread.

MrNarcotic wrote:I also fear that deep down i'm writing all this just to impress the readers on here. I'm not really sure what my intentions are, I apologize for that because I might have stolen some of your precious time.

Though, you are correct here.. Like i said, feel free to start your own thread.