Difference between narcissism and NPD?

saucygirl31 wrote:interesting that u say clinical narcissists can slide a scale and are more obviusy insecure than someone with healthy narcissism

although i guess it depends on how well you can spot these ppl to know which is more insecure

but in regards to the scale i think the change isnt as big as it seems like most people w npd probably stick more to their roles but just regroup in their alone time? instead of literally becoming "vulnerable" in all aspects?

I was reading a book by Greenburgh who has been treating and specializing in NPD, BPD, and Schizoid personality disorder. She really breaks things down into very simple terms. It’s a decent read, I have her book but she does free comments on quora I’ve interacted with her via email. Very interesting person, she says the easiest way she spots the difference between real self confidence and NPD is someone who is truly confident doesn’t need to knock someone else down to feel better about themselves, this is a classic sign of low self-esteem.

When I say slide along the scale what I mean is, the grandiose self, the feeling special is like a fantasy that seems real to the Narcissist, it’s a lie they tell themselves and believe atleast for alittle bit but as soon as something challenges that fantasy and they are faced with reality narcissist can go from thinking they are great (grandiose fantasy) to thinking they are a complete useless POS because the mind isn’t completely developed and NPD lack ‘whole object relations’ which is like splitting so they cannot see someone as basically good but have a bad trait, the person is either great or a scumbag loser and this applies to themselves as well. I’ve heard it described as a disease of the self esteem. Narcissist have very low actual self worth so they turn to others to define them. It’s a terrible existence

SillySalmon wrote:What distinguishes a narcissistic person from someone who has NPD? Is it based on the number of diagnostic criteria that a person meets? Or is it a matter of severity? At what point does narcissism become a personality disorder? Is it black and white, or are there people in between who are sort of halfway there?

Hello. According to Dr. Ramani, a leading expert on narcissism, the difference is that in order to be diagnosed with a personality disorder one must report that they feel distress as a result of their narcissism. They have to feel like it is a problem in their lives. The definition of a disorder is that it interferes with everyday life. Basically, you can't diagnose someone with an illness for being an asshole. There are many narcissistic individuals who say they're okay with being narcissistic, it works for them and it doesn't cause them distress. These narcissists cannot be diagnosed with the disorder even if they have all of the traits. Thus, narcissism is a description of traits while NPD is an actual diagnosis. Saying someone is narcissistic is about as much of a diagnosis as saying a person is stubborn.

Furthermore, there is narcissistic behavior and then there is pathological narcissism. This is distinguished based on frequency, intensity, and duration. Someone might act narcissistic for a week due to an event, such as receiving a promotion, then return back to normal. This is much different than pathological narcissism.

There is something I don't understand about Narcissism.
Is Narcissism the same as Narcissistic Disorder?
I mean a person proud of their accomplishments has a narcissistic disorder?
For example, a Nobel Prize winner who believes himself to be superior to others is an NPD?
Is he even a Narcissist?

(edited to direct readers of this post to a topic started on it at

narcissistic-personality/topic217317.html#p2269065 )

My take on this question is based on the Tudor model along with a parallel from pop culture of my own:

The narcissistic spectrum as below covers all people. On the bottom end, the least narcissistic people are called (1) empaths. They are the ones who are really, sometimes unhealthily, motivated by empathy for other people. Next are the (2) normals, who are neither particularly empathetic nor narcissistic. Then we get to (3) narcissistic people, who have high levels of narcissistic personality traits and particularly low emotional empathy for other people. Myself, I belong to this third group, if anyone is interested. I stress that the three groups so far represent "normal", non-NPD people. The fourth group, the top end, are the actual (4) narcissist, those who have NPD.

Empaths | Normals | Narcissistic People | Narcissists

Traversing groups 1-3, which is actually possible through life experiences, happens on a spectrum. You can be a bit of an empath but mostly a normal, and you can transit from being a normal to being a narcissistic person. What you CANNOT do, at least after age about 8, is traverse between groups 3 and 4. It's like groups 1-3 happen on a spectrum, but group 4 is binary. You either are or you aren't, and you cannot be 4 a little bit or a lot.

People belonging to 1-3, the non-narcissists, can be made to see reason and change their behaviour accordingly. So if the behaviour of a person in group 3 is causing a problem in e.g. a work setting, that person can adjust and the problem can be solved. In the case of a person from group 4 the problem cannot be solved in that way. Narcissists are unaware of their condition (excluding the rare Greaters) and are unable to fit the notion into their mind that there is something wrong with them. They are also generally unable to stop "playing the game", i.e. abusing others for their particular ends. Narcissism is like an autopilot that dictates the behavior of a narcissist, largely divorced from logic and reason.

Now for pop culture.

In Star Wars, "The Force" has a good side and a dark side. The way for a force actor to traverse to the dark side is to indulge in negative feelings, hate, anger etc. To stay on the good side one must resist being consumed by those feelings.

Anakin Skywalker is a character who can, and does, traverse a spectrum of those negative feelings, (spoiler alert) progressively succumbing to the hold of those feelings and eventually crossing over to the dark side. Traversing the states of negative feelings is something that happens on a spectrum. You can have a little or a lot. However, crossing over is a binary event. You either are on the dark side, or you aren't, and once you are across, you are completely across. The major difference here is that at his age (late teens or twenties) Anakin would not be able to transition from a non-narcissist to a narcissist.

Narcissism Colloq. False High Self Confidence, self-obsession

Narcissism - psychological-colloquial - Sometimes I've seen Narcissism used to cover all disorder of Self, but in other instances it is only disorder of self resulting in Positive Ego - although the word can be applied to both.

NPD as a disorder - NPD Itself would have a very clearly defined set of schema and calculational errors going on.
Not everyone would have all the schemas involved or the exact same ones. Each subtype would be characterized by the presence of particular schema and calculations.

A psychologist specializing in Personality Disorder would know all the Schema and Calculations. Its a shame we don't have one on the forum(!)

user1357911 wrote:A psychologist specializing in Personality Disorder would know all the Schema and Calculations. Its a shame we don't have one on the forum(!)

Except that we're peer support and professionals can't be here as such.

Snaga wrote:

user1357911 wrote:A psychologist specializing in Personality Disorder would know all the Schema and Calculations. Its a shame we don't have one on the forum(!)

Except that we're peer support and professionals can't be here as such.

Really? When I read the intros/tos etc it said the forum was for all different sorts of people.

All the forums I found on google search that had any professional presence seemed to be professionals and students only. It seems like a sort of divide.

What if a volunteer psychologist provided all the explanations to Peer Support persons to post?

Offline, I find all the professionals I know really intimidating, as if they're about to slap a great big long section on you - for the wrong thing - they're the last people I would ask about psychology or psychiatry despite their qualifications... which is a shame, I know it is only the ones I know in person.

user1357911 wrote:Really? When I read the intros/tos etc it said the forum was for all different sorts of people.

As peers. Not as professionals.

In addition, the following are expressly prohibited on this web site:
PRESENTING YOURSELF OR YOUR OPINIONS IN ANY KIND OF PROFESSIONAL CAPACITY

user1357911 wrote:What if a volunteer psychologist provided all the explanations to Peer Support persons to post?

Banhammer applied with a will.

Snaga wrote:

user1357911 wrote:Really? When I read the intros/tos etc it said the forum was for all different sorts of people.

As peers. Not as professionals.

Ah ok I see.

Snaga wrote:

In addition, the following are expressly prohibited on this web site:
PRESENTING YOURSELF OR YOUR OPINIONS IN ANY KIND OF PROFESSIONAL CAPACITY

user1357911 wrote:What if a volunteer psychologist provided all the explanations to Peer Support persons to post?

Banhammer applied with a will.

I didn't mean if forum users posted them, I mean what if they were provided to the moderators?

It just seemed like there was a lot of colloquial information (explanations) in the stickies and not so much of the other, thought it would be nice to have a balance.

The thing is that online, we can't verify anyone's qualifications. It's an anonymous forum, and even if it were not anonymous, we still would not be able to verify that someone is who they say they are, and what qualifications they have to make assessments - anyone could be hiding behind a keyboard.

The colloquial type information in stickies- not all stickies have been deliberately written as informational threads about a disorder. Sometimes they've just been threads that various people have contributed to which have explained something about the disorder really well, or have been something that needs to stay at the top of the forum, like a commonly used thread or something important about that particular subforum. Not all stickies have been written by mods either. The ones with purple names are former mods, and most of the orange ones are just regular users. There's a few former mods who have chosen to go back to being an orange user, but the majority of former mods names are in purple.

The only "formal" information in those threads is usually about diagnostic criteria for a disorder, which can also readily be found online.

user1357911 wrote:Offline, I find all the professionals I know really intimidating, as if they're about to slap a great big long section on you - for the wrong thing - they're the last people I would ask about psychology or psychiatry despite their qualifications... which is a shame, I know it is only the ones I know in person.

They're not all like that. It's taken me a while to find them, but ones without that attitude do exist.