Problems with Itemizing?

Hello, I'm new here. The first thing I'll say is that autism runs in my family. It is suspected that both of my grandmothers were born with it, one of my cousins was diagnosed with it (as well as my brother), and we are pretty sure that my dad and possibly his sister are on the autistic spectrum as well.

Over the last decade or so, it has been suspected that I may be on the autistic spectrum myself, especially since two of the people who seem to understand me the best have aspergers and we experience similar moodiness and difficulty with people at times.

So, with that intro out of the way... okay so I'm not sure if this is the right forum category for this discussion, sooo... if it's wrong, I'd like to ask the mods to please place it in the appropriate area. ^^;

Okay so, over the years... I've found that to some degree, the way I think and process things almost seems to be... computer-like, even though I do experience emotions. To the extent that I will say things that make sense to me, perhaps as the result of much internal processing and analysis, and... it seems to be very easy for me to offend other people, make them angry, and/or hurt their feelings, sometimes more than others.

Now... I'm not sure what I'm looking for here exactly, maybe I'm just curious if anyone else here has had any similar issues, annnnd.... I know this is probably gonna sound like a VERY stupid request, but I guess I was wondering if someone here could explain something to me? Help me understand?

It's on the subject of... itemizing.

Let's say that there is a person in your life who regularly behaves in a way that annoys you and the rest of your family, maybe this person has even hurt your family and this person has refused to acknowledge that they did anything wrong.

The way the logic works in my mind, it should be possible to analyze the entire situation, document the details in some fashion after dissecting and scrutinizing every side and every detail, and then verbally tell the offending party what they have done wrong and how they should change their behavior/attitude accordingly, with the unspoken understanding that an apology from the offender should be automatically forthcoming after the itemized list is presented in its thoroughness.

I once asked a friend why my dad kept his responses to this offending party short and simple, instead of going through everything she had done to hurt us and make us angry, and my friend answered that it is because if he itemized everything, it would just make the other person defend herself harder and it would cause more drama than it was worth.

Soooo.... maybe I'm just trying to process this and get past some sort of mental block here, or maybe I'm hoping that someone can offer some perspective here? ^^;

I mean... To me, it makes perfect sense to sit there and analyze everything that happened, everything that was said, and... I guess when it comes to non-personal things, well... if a computer is glitching up, you fix it. If a floor is dirty, you clean it. If your household needs some things, you organize a list and get what you need at the grocery store.

If you're dealing with an arrogant, pig-headed person who thinks they know best and won't listen to anyone... they get defensive or consider it an attack if you were to confront them or present an itemized list about what was done wrong.

I guess the thing is... I have sometimes been told things like, "If you have a problem with someone, talk to them about it" or even, "if you have a problem with me, talk to me directly", but... the problem with that sometimes is... sometimes, if you TRY to say what you're really thinking or feeling, the drama/reaction you get afterward just isn't worth it. Or in some cases, if you try talking to somebody, you don't really get the resolution or the healing responses that you anticipated or needed.

Though... part of my issues probably have to do with social anxiety and the fact that I am very sensitive and I just don't like dealing with people that much.

So... I guess I was just wondering if anyone here has anything to offer on this subject? Please? ^^;

I have this problem too. I'm not socially skilled. A friend recently asked me why I don't open up to him more and I gave him an "itemized list" of his faults. Needless to say, it did not go over well.

I think the secret lies in striking a balance between the message and the other-message. The message being: you do vwxyz and it bothers me. The other message being: how *could* you do that? It's related to the idea that in everyone there exists both an adult and a child. Provided you've phrased it correctly, the adult hears the message. But the child still hears the other message, and then converts it to: you're a horrible person, I don't love you!!! It's almost impossible for the child *not* to hear that, even when you're perfectly polite, mature, respectful, diplomatic. The adult will "get" all that. The child won't. And there's no sense expecting people not to have a child-side. They *will* have it. So the trick is in respecting both sides, the child and the adult. Finding a way to speak to both of them. You speak to the adult with reason and logic. You speak to the child by recognizing and soothing his emotions.

In other words, I don't think you have to give up being direct and honest. Those are good qualities, and they serve a real purpose. But if you throw in some sugar for the child at the same time, you likely be more effective. It's not an either-or. It's about finding a balance between speaking to someone's inner adult and speaking to their inner child.

That was very interesting, I'd honestly never looked at it quite that way before. I think I have been stuck in the mindset for a long time that every individual exists in a state of being that is one of two extremes, either "entirely grownup", or "still childlike".

Like... if someone of ANY age over twenty reacted emotionally or childishly, it's almost like my first thought has always been, "Wow that person is still a child. They NEED to grow up. Why haven't they grown up already? They're over 18." But... what you said there about there being a child and an adult mutually inside of all of us... that gives me a lot more food for thought and a new perspective.

I guess it also brings out another thing I've struggled with by extension. I mean... at the risk of sounding really snobby here, I've found that whenever I do try to be upfront, and if someone doesn't get my intent or they get hurt by it, I've found myself feeling slighted like, "Well, they just weren't listening correctly to my intent or what I really meant, it's not my fault if they didn't get it."

........On a side note, I have also found that sometimes, I've tried to compensate for any perceived rudeness on my part by going through a little song and dance where I kinda apologize before I even start speaking, or I even go something like "I know I have been rude and I'm probably being rude now but........." Particularly if I think I'm gonna say something that the other party is not gonna take kindly too.

Only thing I've found is that sometimes, adding things like apologies or "I know I'm being rude but..." actually doesn't seem to help much, because it probably just comes across as obnoxious or sounds like I'm making an excuse or something. :/ I mean, sometimes it might come across like I'm instead saying, "I'm so sorry for being rude but I'm gonna be rude anyway and I hope you won't notice or that you'll react less severely because I'm being a little grovelly about it."

............Of course there are some cases where some people are not gonna get along no matter what, annnd I think in some cases, the autistic mind is kinda alien to neurotypicals. >.<

Fawnette wrote:............Of course there are some cases where some people are not gonna get along no matter what, annnd I think in some cases, the autistic mind is kinda alien to neurotypicals. >.<

True 'dat.

By extension, I guess there is something else that bothers me, that I have been thinking about.

I mean... I know I have gotten better about this, but there have been many, many, many times in the past when I've had a very cold and harsh attitude/mentality toward other people's reactions and emotions.

I've basically felt and acted like, "This person is mad? This person is feeling hurt? Well, this is incorrect. This needs to be changed or edited, or this person just really needs to... not be this way."

I think part of this is because people interaction and especially their reaction to certain things was... foreign to me. I found I had great difficulty in my youth because sometimes, I WOULD do or say something that another person took great offense to, and for the life of me I wouldn't understand why everybody around me had suddenly "turned mean", at least... that's the way my mind perceived it at the time.

I mean, if you really are in a young state where you are ENTIRELY clueless and not developed very much in any way yet, it can sometimes feel like everybody around you are just turning against you for a time out of the blue... and it's worse when this includes your parents, because they don't quite get how you are and their first response is to get angry and punish you for whatever you did, then bury the entire issue under the carpet. This can be a struggle for everybody, because it also means the child on the autistic spectrum becomes less trusting of family.

I think for a time, particularly in my younger years when I just didn't understand much of anything, my defense mechanism was that... whenever I did something bad, (even if it was something borderline harrassive to another student in school), well...

Again, look at it from the POV of a young, clueless autistic mind for a moment. Everybody is getting mad, turning "mean", and worst of all, maybe you were just copying something that you saw someone else doing somewhere else entirely, maybe even your own parent's behavior, and suddenly... it seems like everybody around you who is involved and/or addressing the situation is turning mean, and you're having certain privileges taken away, the principal is getting involved, and... you just don't get WHY, at the time.

Soooo.... at times back then, my coping/defense mechanism was kinda weird, and also unhealthy in the long run. When an incident happened (not that it happened too often, but it happened a few times and it was enough to leave a lasting mark), all I would see was that everybody was mad, acting mean, (Even if it was entirely verbal for the most part) and I was getting terrible vibes from everyone, including people I usually felt safe around because they were usually nice.

As a result, when the first aftermath was over, I was stunned, confused, upset in my own way, and then things would calm down for a little while... and I would recover, (like, maybe an hour or two after everything happened) and I could even zone out from the dirty looks I might be being given or the uncomfortable vibes I was getting from the teacher, and in a way, I felt like maybe it was over and I could forget about what happened.

But just as I was calming down and moving past it myself, that's when more people had to bring up the issue again, my parents got involved, and sometimes they reacted to things rather childishly, especially if I did something that they embarrassed them personally. So for me, from my narrow POV, it just felt like 1: everybody had been mean out of the blue, and 2: I was JUST starting to calm down and move past everybody else's negativity toward me, and 3: Everybody had to rip it all wide open again and even make it worse.

As a result, not only did I learn NOTHING from the entire thing (because I didn't understand back then what was going on or why everybody was mad in the first place), but in a weird way, it also taught me not to deal with or get over my issues, because my response to things was to try and forget and calm down and stay away from people after they first started to "act mean", but as we know the world and society doesn't work that way. But to me, it was an absolute intrusion to be dragged back out of my secure, mental cave I had established for myself, just to have other people force me back into something I had been trying to close myself off from and forget about and get over.

I think that also lead to increased anxiety for me, because in a way, I learned that even if *I* was getting over stuff and I was ready to just forget it and move on with life, everybody else had to go through the standard process of informing anyone else who needed to know of the incident, and make me face the consequences... even if, again, I was clueless WHAT was even going on back then.

Perhaps if I had been diagnosed with autism at a much, much younger age, these situations could have been handled much differently or maybe some things wouldn't have happened at all, buuuut it's a little late for what-if's in this area.

It also doesn't help that I seem to be a very, very slow processor at times. I think part of this might be due to my denseness when it comes to reading body language or figuring out what people really meant when they were talking, but... sometimes, it can literally be two weeks (if not more) before I will reflect back upon something enough to realize, "OH, that's what that person was feeling... but derp now it's too late to apologize or clarify anything because they've already formed their opinion of me and moved on, or they may not remember it anymore."

Or in other cases, well... let's just say I didn't really start to develop cognitively and socially in some ways until after I was 19, and when THAT started to happen, my mind was like a hurricane for a while because a lot more things started to make sense, and... I felt a flurry of emotions, guilt, embarrassment, rage, etc... because I began to realize more and more what some people's intentions really were at times, or what I had really done to them and why they reacted the way they did sometimes, and so on and so forth.

In a way, I guess it's almost like waking up and realizing you'd been sleepwalking through life while recording everything mentally, and then BAM, one day you wake up and managed to filter through everything that ever happened with more experience and awareness, but it's too late because the past is gone and set in stone, and all you can do for a time is lament over a lot of missed opportunities, things you wish you had said or done differently, and people you wish you could punch in the gut because some of what they did was actually arrogant, cruel, or just taking advantage of you.

Fawnette wrote:By extension, I guess there is something else that bothers me, that I have been thinking about.

I mean... I know I have gotten better about this, but there have been many, many, many times in the past when I've had a very cold and harsh attitude/mentality toward other people's reactions and emotions.

I've basically felt and acted like, "This person is mad? This person is feeling hurt? Well, this is incorrect. This needs to be changed or edited, or this person just really needs to... not be this way."

Same.

As a result, not only did I learn NOTHING from the entire thing (because I didn't understand back then what was going on or why everybody was mad in the first place), but in a weird way, it also taught me not to deal with or get over my issues, because my response to things was to try and forget and calm down and stay away from people after they first started to "act mean", but as we know the world and society doesn't work that way. But to me, it was an absolute intrusion to be dragged back out of my secure, mental cave I had established for myself, just to have other people force me back into something I had been trying to close myself off from and forget about and get over.

My response for so many years was to gt angry at them for "being mean" rather than telling me what the problem was. And, likewise, to avoid the situation by ignoring it. I'm still struggling with the idea that what happens is partly my fault through failing to observe social norms and expecting that others bear the burden of telling me when something is wrong, telling me my mistakes. Of course, it's nice when they do (and I still think they ought to) but, realistically, this just isn't happening and I'm going to have to find some way to deal.

I think that also lead to increased anxiety for me, because in a way, I learned that even if *I* was getting over stuff and I was ready to just forget it and move on with life, everybody else had to go through the standard process of informing anyone else who needed to know of the incident, and make me face the consequences... even if, again, I was clueless WHAT was even going on back then.

You're making me think I may have autism.


It also doesn't help that I seem to be a very, very slow processor at times.

Same.

I think part of this might be due to my denseness when it comes to reading body language or figuring out what people really meant when they were talking, but... sometimes, it can literally be two weeks (if not more) before I will reflect back upon something enough to realize, "OH, that's what that person was feeling... but derp now it's too late to apologize or clarify anything because they've already formed their opinion of me and moved on, or they may not remember it anymore."

Yes. Others do seem to have a much more intuitive grasp on what is or isn't appropriate.

In a way, I guess it's almost like waking up and realizing you'd been sleepwalking through life while recording everything mentally, and then BAM, one day you wake up and managed to filter through everything that ever happened with more experience and awareness, but it's too late because the past is gone and set in stone, and all you can do for a time is lament over a lot of missed opportunities, things you wish you had said or done differently, and people you wish you could punch in the gut because some of what they did was actually arrogant, cruel, or just taking advantage of you.

I often feel the same. There is some bad/immature behavior and avoidance on their part as well.

There is just one final thing I want to talk about here, one other issue I have been struggling with a lot over the years.

I have sometimes been told that I get into these “set in stone” plans or mindsets, where I end up getting really upset or devastated when things don’t go that way, sometimes to the point where I just want to get up on the entire thing I was starting to do or get into, much to the detriment of other people who were either excited that I was doing it or they were trying to support me while I was trying to get into something new.

But there are also areas where I feel that many, many things in my life have resulted in meltdowns and depression… partly because the people around me did not prepare me properly, or my own delusional brain concocted a fantasy that I expected to play out in reality.

For example, when I was a teenager, (bear in mind Dad is on the autistic spectrum, so I’m sure that he had his own delusions and fantasies sometimes), he basically laid out this plan for me that once I turned 18, God was going to bring the perfect man into my life, that I would make an awesome housewife and he even told me when I was 17 that that was when I needed to start thinking about how many kids I wanted, because something was gonna happen very, very soon.

Add to the fact that I was heavily sheltered for the most part, and did not have much experience with people and not really any friends, (plus my parents liked to keep me and my brother out of the public eye for the most part), I had this awesome mental image that I was gonna become a whole new, mature person capable of ANYTHING once I hit 18, and that God was gonna drop the perfect guy into my lap who would make me feel good always.

Now I am in my early thirties, never been married and never had children, so you can tell that, obviously, THAT never happened. But I had to spend nearly a full decade being angry and having serious trust issues with my parents over what was reality and what wasn’t, because I felt honestly betrayed by my own family, by God for not following through what He was “supposed” to give me automatically according to my Dad, and… there were a great many things that were “supposed” to happen automatically just because I had turned 18, and they never did. So what is a young, sheltered, naive person supposed to think about anything or anyone, when she is not prepared properly for ANYTHING, any issues are just ignored or suppressed, and then it’s basically just, “Okie-day YAY you’re legal-aged now, your awesome fairy tale existence is just beginning now! 8D” And then….. you spend years angry, waiting for the magic to start, and it never does.

It’s like believing in Santa Clause for waaaaaaaaay too long, and then being forced to see that the world isn’t really like that and you’ve been living tucked away in a fantasy, idealistic reality that only exists in your own head, when the true reality is much harder and much harsher… to the point where you still want to cling to your beautiful fantasies and try to warp reality to fit into that mold, because actual reality is much too harsh to accept sometimes.

But… I have also come to realize that in a lot of ways, I think I’ve also been very, very spoiled for the most part, despite some issues I’ve had in the past with my family. Within reason, when they could, (Even if we didn’t have much money; we were never rich), they gave me pretty much whatever I wanted, and… maybe if there was something I couldn’t have because it was too expensive, I just deluded myself into believing I could get it “someday”, once I became a millionaire or something. Of course, that never really happened either.

In the end, I’ve probably just been… sort of throwing a decade-long temper tantrum of sorts because I never learned to deal with anything very well, and… I’ve always had the mindset, to some degree, that if I get it into my head somehow that things are gonna go a certain way and I’m gonna get blah-blah by a certain age or a certain time, I have sometimes experienced severe meltdowns and depression over the fact that it didn’t happen that way, I didn’t get whatever it is, and then I go through a period where it’s like my life is over and I don’t know what to do or think anymore.

The only ways I’ve managed to feel more at peace is by learning to forgive my family and accept them as they are, annnnd to gradually start accepting that reality is what it is and living willfully or subconsciously in a deluded, fantasy reality just leads to your own downfall.

But… even to this day, I still have issues where I’m fighting with my own bratty entitlement within myself. “WHERE IS MY PRINCE CHARMING?! WHERE IS THE SELF-SUFFICIENT FARMLAND MY FAMILY WAS SUPPOSED TO SET UP SOMEDAY THAT I WAS GONNA INHERIT?! WHY AM I NOT CELEBRATING MY FIRSTBORN CHILD’S 11TH BIRTHDAY RIGHT NOW?!?! WHERE IS THE MILLIONAIRE STATUS I WAS SUPPOSED TO HAVE BY NOW?!”

When in reality I am also continually trying to tell myself, at the same time, “Grow up, you big baby, anybody who told you you’d get all that stuff on a silver platter without having to work for it was seriously delusional and had dreams of grandeur.”

I think that’s also an unfortunate thing about the American mentality in general. It’s almost like people get born with an entitlement that they’re practically millionaire’s-to-be, where they can have anything and everything and act like they make all the rules.

pamelaperejil wrote:I have this problem too. I'm not socially skilled. A friend recently asked me why I don't open up to him more and I gave him an "itemized list" of his faults. Needless to say, it did not go over well.

I think the secret lies in striking a balance between the message and the other-message. The message being: you do vwxyz and it bothers me. The other message being: how *could* you do that? It's related to the idea that in everyone there exists both an adult and a child. Provided you've phrased it correctly, the adult hears the message. But the child still hears the other message, and then converts it to: you're a horrible person, I don't love you!!! It's almost impossible for the child *not* to hear that, even when you're perfectly polite, mature, respectful, diplomatic. The adult will "get" all that. The child won't. And there's no sense expecting people not to have a child-side. They *will* have it. So the trick is in respecting both sides, the child and the adult. Finding a way to speak to both of them. You speak to the adult with reason and logic. You speak to the child by recognizing and soothing his emotions.

In other words, I don't think you have to give up being direct and honest. Those are good qualities, and they serve a real purpose. But if you throw in some sugar for the child at the same time, you likely be more effective. It's not an either-or. It's about finding a balance between speaking to someone's inner adult and speaking to their inner child.

i really love this description and i agree.i feel i definetely have an inner child together with an adult like most people

By the way, I was curious..... um....

Does anyone else ever have any problems with being told that something you are focused heavily on, or that is bothering you a lot (or something that seems like a HUGE deal to you) is "not really a big deal"? :/

I mean, I have even been pondering the post in this thread a little more about how we have an inner child and an inner adult (annnnd I'm also thinking that things might also get tricky when those two sides within us conflict, or even bicker as we internalize), and I was once told by a friend that children will think everything is the end of the world... either because they don't have enough experience yet, or they just haven't learned how to deal with it.

Honestly, one of my greatest pet peeves has always been being told in some fashion that whatever I'm hyped up over is actually "not a big deal". In a way, it makes sense because the things I get upset over tend to be things that other people consider minute anyway, but....

In some ways, it sometimes really stings to have people who once would've agreed with you or even sympathized with you suddenly start telling you to get over it or that whatever you're feeling is really not that big of a deal. I think it's also just a sign that some people grew up and learned to move beyond certain things, and I never did. But to me, it still stung a lot nevertheless... or at least, it shocked me.

At the risk of sounding like a complete arrogant, entitled snob though... sometimes, I guess I just feel like it is not the place of other people to tell you what should or shouldn't be "a big deal" or "worth getting worked up over". To some extent, yes, maybe sometimes we DO need to get told that this or that is not THAT worth getting worked up over, because if you spend twenty minutes ranting or crying about how a coffee pot got ruined because you left it on the stove too long, maybe you do have a bit of a problem. You can just buy a new one. All that should matter is that you didn't burn the house down.

But if you have social anxiety or maybe if you have something else going on, it can feel kinda callous and dismissive and ignorant of the other person to just tell you that that thing you're so upset over is no big deal. I guess another area is just... sometimes, it's kinda hurtful if people tell you that you need to "get a life" if you're too hung up on one thing.

I mean, I guess in some ways it's just a matter of perspective and it probably depends upon what the other person finds important and unimportant. But... suppose you're the type of person who considers their home a very nice and comfortable cave, the one place in the world where you can feel truly safe and secure, and every single thing within it is precious and has its own place. If that's the case, losing a coffee pot might feel like you lost a fixture that you're used to having there, especially if you have a strong emotional tie to your surroundings and your possessions.

I'm probably being ultra-nitpicky here, and again, neurotypicals just don't get some stuff sometimes, particularly if they've had a long, 40-hour work week and other stuff going on on top of that, and the last thing they want or need to hear (at least from their perspective) is some person whining about how their coffee pot got ruined. To the person with a mental disorder, maybe that coffee pot was part of their world, and they just lost a piece of it. To the neurotypical who has to hear about this seemingly insignificant issue on top of everything else they have going on, it's also pretty understandable that they might just say, "Oh get over it and go buy a new one."

Fawnette wrote:There is just one final thing I want to talk about here, one other issue I have been struggling with a lot over the years.

I have sometimes been told that I get into these “set in stone” plans or mindsets, where I end up getting really upset or devastated when things don’t go that way, sometimes to the point where I just want to get up on the entire thing I was starting to do or get into, much to the detriment of other people who were either excited that I was doing it or they were trying to support me while I was trying to get into something new.

But there are also areas where I feel that many, many things in my life have resulted in meltdowns and depression… partly because the people around me did not prepare me properly, or my own delusional brain concocted a fantasy that I expected to play out in reality.

Are you sure you're not borderline?

For example, when I was a teenager, (bear in mind Dad is on the autistic spectrum, so I’m sure that he had his own delusions and fantasies sometimes), he basically laid out this plan for me that once I turned 18, God was going to bring the perfect man into my life, that I would make an awesome housewife and he even told me when I was 17 that that was when I needed to start thinking about how many kids I wanted, because something was gonna happen very, very soon.

Are we twins? This is getting weird.

Add to the fact that I was heavily sheltered for the most part, and did not have much experience with people and not really any friends, (plus my parents liked to keep me and my brother out of the public eye for the most part), I had this awesome mental image that I was gonna become a whole new, mature person capable of ANYTHING once I hit 18, and that God was gonna drop the perfect guy into my lap who would make me feel good always.

See above.

Now I am in my early thirties, never been married and never had children, so you can tell that, obviously, THAT never happened. But I had to spend nearly a full decade being angry and having serious trust issues with my parents over what was reality and what wasn’t, because I felt honestly betrayed by my own family, by God for not following through what He was “supposed” to give me automatically according to my Dad, and… there were a great many things that were “supposed” to happen automatically just because I had turned 18, and they never did. So what is a young, sheltered, naive person supposed to think about anything or anyone, when she is not prepared properly for ANYTHING, any issues are just ignored or suppressed, and then it’s basically just, “Okie-day YAY you’re legal-aged now, your awesome fairy tale existence is just beginning now! 8D” And then….. you spend years angry, waiting for the magic to start, and it never does.

See above.

It’s like believing in Santa Clause for waaaaaaaaay too long, and then being forced to see that the world isn’t really like that and you’ve been living tucked away in a fantasy, idealistic reality that only exists in your own head, when the true reality is much harder and much harsher… to the point where you still want to cling to your beautiful fantasies and try to warp reality to fit into that mold, because actual reality is much too harsh to accept sometimes...

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