Narcissistic Vs Histrionic Attention

The differences?

Anyone noticed them specifically?

Thus far I noticed the pronoun usage (the narcissistic types seem to use "I" much more in attempts to get supply).

Many things my ex did never fit into conventional "Histrionic" types of attention seeking. Funny as the Hpd is known, typically, to seek attention...yet Narcissistic Attention I feel is overlooked (by panning it off as Hpd when in fact it is not Hpd).

The Narcissist gets attention, Imo, in ways that mimick the Hpd's attempts to get attention.

The Hpd gets blamed, yet, Imo, it is not Hpd but a form of cluster b axis 2 attention seeking that Mimicks the Hpd.

This, perhaps, is why some of what we hear here does not fit the Hpd profile. The Hpd has a certain way of seeking attention that is not Npdish.

A google search of narcissistic attention provides interesting thought. All of us want or need attention, I'm sure...

But not the Narcissistic types of attention.

This has caused me to solve a big piece to a puzzle I've been putting together. Thus far everything fits and is capable of synchronizing many instances and encounters with axis two behavior that could not be rightfully fit into the Hpd's behavior profile.

Anyone notice the differences between Hpd attention seeking and Narcissistic Attention Seeking?

Have you any specific instances where you may have blamed Hpd when it was really the handiwork of Npd (whether by dx-offical or unoffical, or simply by a chronic behavior trait)?

narcissistic-personality/topic97036.html

Greatem wrote:NPD need reassurance they are better, while HPD need reassurance they are worth something?

edit

Greatem wrote:http://www.psychforums.com/narcissistic-personality/topic97036.html

Greatem wrote:NPD need reassurance they are better, while HPD need reassurance they are worth something?

Greatem,

IMO that's good; succinctly said.

jmJMjm,

Complicating the answer to your question is what kind of HPD subtype...see Vivacious HPD subtype, below...

From http://www.healthguideinfo.com/other-mo ... s/p114618/

[begin quote]
Theodore Millon: The Grandfather of Personality Science
written by: Rene Wolf • edited by: Paul Arnold • updated: 4/20/2011

Appeasing
Appeasing histrionic personality subtype includes dependent and compulsive features. The appeasing histrionic personality attempts to pacify others in an attempt to sooth difficult situations. This type of histrionic is notorious for settling differences while sacrificing themselves for praise and approval. The person is dependent on the outbursts of others in order to mediate and introduce compromise to the situation, resulting in praise from others for solving a difficult situation.

Vivacious
The vivacious histrionic personality subtype includes narcissistic features. The vivacious histrionic displays the typical behavior associated with a narcissistic disorder including being energetic, impulsive, bubbly, adventurous, overly charming and animated. The vivacious histrionic will often display these personality traits at inappropriate times.


Tempestuous
Tempestuous histrionic personality subtype includes negativistic or passive-aggressive features. The tempestuous histrionic is impulsive, with out of control behaviors. Tempestuous histrionics are notorious for their unstable behavior and actions, for example they may be sulking one minute and violent the next. The tempestuous personality is often thought of as an emotional, confused, abrupt and moody individual often thriving on the creation of turmoil.

Disingenuous
Disingenuous histrionic personality subtype includes antisocial features. Someone showing signs of a disingenuous histrionic personality will have behaviors very similar to those of antisocial personality disorder such as being egocentric, deceitful, scheming and contriving. Antisocial subtypes are experienced at convincing others to do as they ask and will often make false commitments in order to get what they want. The disingenuous histrionic is thought to be an extremely untrustworthy individual that has no concern for those who are affected by their behaviors.

Theatrical
Theatrical histrionic personality subtype includes features that are dramatic, romantic and attention seeking. The theatrical histrionic is overly concerned with appearance and dramatizes both their looks and actions. These individuals will often “sell” themselves through graphic poses and theatrical emotions. They will also seek the attention of others through inappropriate actions. For example, the theatrical histrionic may become overly dramatic with their performance in response to a common question by sighing deeply and placing one hand to their forehead (striking a pose).



Infantile
Infantile histrionic personality subtype includes borderline features. An infantile histrionic will often display childlike hysteria and/or volatile emotions similar to the behaviors found in borderline personalities. The infantile histrionic may be demanding, clingy and may become fixated on another individual. The individual may display childlike behaviors such as pouting, become hysterical during inappropriate situations and become labile (frequent change of emotions).

[end of quote]

orion8591 wrote:
Vivacious
The vivacious histrionic personality subtype includes narcissistic features. The vivacious histrionic displays the typical behavior associated with a narcissistic disorder including being energetic, impulsive, bubbly, adventurous, overly charming and animated. The vivacious histrionic will often display these personality traits at inappropriate times.


Tempestuous
Tempestuous histrionic personality subtype includes negativistic or passive-aggressive features. The tempestuous histrionic is impulsive, with out of control behaviors. Tempestuous histrionics are notorious for their unstable behavior and actions, for example they may be sulking one minute and violent the next. The tempestuous personality is often thought of as an emotional, confused, abrupt and moody individual often thriving on the creation of turmoil.

Disingenuous
Disingenuous histrionic personality subtype includes antisocial features. Someone showing signs of a disingenuous histrionic personality will have behaviors very similar to those of antisocial personality disorder such as being egocentric, deceitful, scheming and contriving. Antisocial subtypes are experienced at convincing others to do as they ask and will often make false commitments in order to get what they want. The disingenuous histrionic is thought to be an extremely untrustworthy individual that has no concern for those who are affected by their behaviors.

Theatrical
Theatrical histrionic personality subtype includes features that are dramatic, romantic and attention seeking. The theatrical histrionic is overly concerned with appearance and dramatizes both their looks and actions. These individuals will often “sell” themselves through graphic poses and theatrical emotions. They will also seek the attention of others through inappropriate actions. For example, the theatrical histrionic may become overly dramatic with their performance in response to a common question by sighing deeply and placing one hand to their forehead (striking a pose).



Infantile
Infantile histrionic personality subtype includes borderline features. An infantile histrionic will often display childlike hysteria and/or volatile emotions similar to the behaviors found in borderline personalities. The infantile histrionic may be demanding, clingy and may become fixated on another individual. The individual may display childlike behaviors such as pouting, become hysterical during inappropriate situations and become labile (frequent change of emotions).

Orion is it just me...or did MIllon look at Hpd as the main pd?

Look at all the subtypes...

On the other hand, concerning the other subtypes, at times I get the impression that no matter if it was Bpd, Npd, or Hpd...that the subtypes simply reverted back to one and the same:

Cluster B/Axis 2.

Yet, I must admit that Millon always seemed to dedicate more attention to Hpd than many other writers, as many other writers have different types of Bpd to describe exactly what Milon used the Hpd model to describe.

You can get a glimpse of it here:

Understanding The Borderline Mother

In the above book, subtypes of Bpd are explained...in almost identical ways as Hpd above is explained. Not much difference anyway.

Wonder why shirnks do that a lot?

The women victims get the same type of thing, but it is all the different type of Narcs (guess the guys get the Npd label, with many unique subtypes).

However I wonder why or what caused all that? Millon is a highly credible source, Orion, and whilst I was ready to hit the I agree button with your bold above...I kept reading and couldn't help but say:

"She was like that too".

or,

"Oh...and that also describes her".
What makes you look through the lens of Hpd as your major Pd filter? Don't, never have, heard or seen you speak of too much Bpd (although the Somatic Narc is a special of yours...is it not?).

Simply curious...as to why you often focus on the subtypes of Hpd, rather than shift to another pd.

Not arguing the point (it could perhaps go either way...as subtypes are still types).

I think that the dominant view is that BPD is the basis, and that the other PD's are refinements of the BPD base. So Millon probably spent more time with BPD, which, if it is the fundamental basis, makes sense...

Lately, I have also come to think of HPD formation this way:

imagine a little girl with a predisposition for BPD. Then, if you could modify her physical appearance, making her beautiful or otherwise attractive within the standards of her culture, as she gets older...this will give her a lot of random positive attention over the course of her teens, twenties, thirties, forties...which she will interpret (misinterpret?) as validation. But the die will be cast by the time she is 18, the compulsion to flirt and seduce will be well-established within her, since it will make her feel worthwhile...resulting in the more Vivacious, narcissistic type of HPD (?)

Or, a girl with a BPD predisposition who is taught - no, trained is a better word - by some or all of her family members to fix problems within her family...she will interpret praise for fixing things up between people as validation...resulting in the more appeasing type of HPD (?)

You can think of similar formations with HPD males, and the other subtypes of HPD.

As far as "why go to subtypes, instead of other types?", I think it's a judgement call, based on a very dynamic situation. Instead of boxes A,B,C,D, think instead of a Cluster B 'cloud'...where certain parts of the cloud have a more water vapor, more sunshine, more static electricity.

I have often wondered, too, for example if, Vivacious HPD, for example, is simply a combo: HPD X NPD.

BTW DSM V no longer recognizes HPD as a PD type; instead it supposedly is lesser...a collection of traits -
(1) Emotional Lability,
(2) Attention Seeking, and
(3) Manipulation

..traits also shared with the PD types
(1) BPD
(2) NPD
(3) AsPD

respectively.

It is important to note that there is so much behavior in common among Cluster B PD's that all these classifications can really just become intellectual diversions: if you are a person with a disorder it is important not to get self-trapped in a label via self-diagnosis, and to seek professional help;

and when you are in a relationship with either an HPD or NPD man or woman, the most important priority is to protect yourself, then to disengage, and, if possible, to encourage he or she to consider self awareness and recovery, in tandem with professional help.

In short, it is important to remember it is the energy of life that heals people and helps them cope; classifications are only a reference point with which to start that journey.

Maybe some of the HPD women and men in the forum could provide insight as to what kind of supply they value, and how this supply might have arisen from their developmental history...

isn't hpd a subtype of borderline?

When DSM V subgraded HPD from a full PD type I thought too maybe it would become a subtype of BPD. But according to DSM V the former HPD is now something less: a collection of traits; "histrionism."

I believe that there is a Millon described subtype of BPD which has histrionic features. Cant remember the subtype name...if you look up BPD on Wikiped you will see it.

PD ology..."an art, not a science." Lol.

Greatem wrote:http://www.psychforums.com/narcissistic-personality/topic97036.html

Greatem wrote:NPD need reassurance they are better, while HPD need reassurance they are worth something?

Thought this was a great way to put it.

When you come to see what underlies the outward persona, it's not very complex. Both are simply reacting to their own lack of self-esteem. When you see it clearly, both NPD types and HPD types are very predictable in how they'll react to nearly every interaction with others, as well as their perception of others they observe (e.g., in movies/tv, strangers in public, etc)

If someone threatens their ego, they'll react. An ego threat can come in the form of someone of the same sex who is more attractive, wealthier, someone with a greater talent, etc. Their can also be ego threats from someone of the opposite sex, but typically the opposite sex is a potential source of resources/ego-strokes, so is less threatening. For example, put the other person down; talk about how they are better; minimize the other person's accomplishment; just generally dislike the other person; see through the other person's manipulation; they'll feel strong anger even hatred for the other person in general; etc.

If someone boosts their ego or is a potential source of ego boosts or resources, they'll react. For example, idolize the other person; feel warm feelings toward that go beyond what is based on reality; feel the other person is a 'friend' or even fantasize there is a deep spiritual bond; treat the other person with excess preference (even at the expense of other friends which are not in the spot-light in the moment); they'll feel elated even 'instant' love; etc.

To a degree we all do this, but it's less extreme in people who have a good sense of self-esteem. People with a good sense of self-esteem are less reactive to their own lack of self-esteem, so less reactive others around them. They are less likely to feel such extremes of emotions when their ego is threatened, or built-up. You see, people with a good sense of self-esteem are also able to see past 'BS' and are more aware when they are just being 'buttered-up'. People with good self-esteem tend to take longer to warm up to others because simply stroking their ego isn't that moving. A long-term, trust-worthy relationship is though. People with good self-esteem know that anyone can fire off a line of BS or an ego stroking line, but to actually be long term concerned, committed, trust-worthy; those relationships are relatively rare and are truly valuable.

Imagine constantly being caught up in your own inner world, a never ending monologue, reacting to perceived ego threats/ego boosts. When you see past the persona, that's what I see now when I look at people who are suffering from HPD/NPD (and nothing one says will change that thinking process, the only thing that can break the tape loop is to address the core issues, the lack of true self-esteem).


As you pointed out, the difference is that the NPD types focus more on being 'better' than others (e.g., work accomplishments), which in a sense makes their ego building somewhat less dependent on others, and more stable. People with HPD seem to be more dependent on moment to moment ego strokes from others, and my personal opinion is, are closer to the BPD side of the spectrum.

On the other side, are the ASPD types who seemingly protect their fragile egos by shutting off big portions of their feelings for/from others entirely. Seeing everything as a kind of game, an emotional place where they can't be hurt.

xdude wrote:On the other side, are the ASPD types who seemingly protect their fragile egos by shutting off big portions of their feelings for/from others entirely. Seeing everything as a kind of game, an emotional place where they can't be hurt.

That statement is quite true, for me anyway, i can post a very large number of personal experiences where i thought just like that. And i still do. I think its the best option.

What is the difference between SPD and AsPD in this regard then?