Histrionics and sex (for Nons)

Ghost wrote:"There's going to be some objection to my opinion but the answer to your questions is: No, they don't believe it's love... and Yes, they DO consciously pretend to fall in love. The malice doesn't always come in untill after the thrill of "the catch" is done and they're bored with you. It's hard for Nons to understand because we don't understand the external nature of the HPD mentality. They don't love the person, but rather the validation that person gives them. Gaining the person's love is a "victory"... Losing the person is a "loss"... Therefore they'll do whatever it takes to "catch" (and keep) the person. The "thrill" like I said only lasts for a short time for them. When they're bored with us as a supply, the malice starts.. and they find other men. From what you said about pushing her away.. it's likely that you got the full force of her attention. Being emotionally unavailable makes their victory all the more sweet.
One other thing about HPD's is that they have a defensive need to deny and suppress that which they find unacceptable. Because playing with someone's emotions like they do is so painful and despicable... there's a VERY strong need for them to find ways to deny, mitigate, or twist the reality of what they do... . The assumption of intimacy is a method of accelerating the game they play. Because there's so much ego involved with the HPD... there's a vested interest in declaring "victory" as soon as possible. I'd bet that this appeared to you as a very deep and natural connection with your ex." Unquote

Ghost, this is a sweeping generalisation. You are talking about HPDs collectively, with no allowances made for individuality. You should not base your assumptions solely on your own individual experience. As for your reference to the comment I made, which I do not need to justify as it is actually a symptom in the DSM (Quote "With respect to the poster.. the "assuming more intimacy in the relationship" is an example of 'twisting' "Unquote) you are being disrespectful to a moderator, and also towards the disorder.

Pers wrote: It's also hard thinking that what felt like the best relationship you've ever had, flawed though it may have been, isn't something that you're going to be able to find again. I don't mean with that person, but I don't know if any other relationship will ever be able to hold a candle to that one. They may be more sane, but they may never be as intense or as deep.

I guess the key is to figure out why you feel this was: "the be all and end all ,to all relationships". Why do you feel this way? Why do you feel you can't have that again? What's lacking in your life? What void did this person fill in your life? It's ok to feel pain and hurt, but it's not ok to let it make you bitter, define YOU, define your future realtionships and be angry too long. It's just baggage. So how do you let go?

Do you really think I guy like Ghost, has handled it best??? Or do you think he would rather just give up living? What makes more sense to you? Live or be bitter?

Sooner or later, you have to look within to let go, to get the best out of life.

OK.

Masquerade wrote: Ghost, this is a sweeping generalisation. You are talking about HPDs collectively, with no allowances made for individuality. You should not base your assumptions solely on your own individual experience. As for your reference to the comment I made, which I do not need to justify as it is actually a symptom in the DSM (Quote "With respect to the poster.. the "assuming more intimacy in the relationship" is an example of 'twisting' "Unquote) you are being disrespectful to a moderator, and also towards the disorder

She: Masquerade the Mod, is right. Don't end up letting this experience, make you bitter for life. "If ????" your ex is HPD, she has alot to deal with. Read the forum, for understanding, than comes forgiveness. It is an illness and it is a disorder they did not ask to have.Thank your lucky stars you are not them.

I wish you peace...

OK

masquerade wrote:I guess the key is to figure out why you feel this was: "the be all and end all ,to all relationships". Why do you feel this way? Why do you feel you can't have that again? What's lacking in your life? What void did this person fill in your life? It's ok to feel pain and hurt, but it's not ok to let it make you bitter, define YOU, define your future realtionships and be angry too long. It's just baggage. So how do you let go?

Do you really think I guy like Ghost, has handled it best??? Or do you think he would rather just give up living? What makes more sense to you? Live or be bitter?

Sooner or later, you have to look within to let go, to get the best out of life.

Thank you ok. I really don't feel bitter or angry at her, if anything I felt, still feel a little angry at myself for hurting her. I posted earlier about having bpd, and how it felt like she was the only that could not only relate to me, but stand me, and stand by me through all of the mood swings, the angry bouts, the pushing away. That's what I feel like I've lost, I've lost the yin to my yang. I've had relationships with "mentally healthy" girls, and that's how I know that it's not the same.

I especially feel like I won't be able to be in another relationship for quite a while, not because of anything she did to me, but because of all the hell I put her through. I don't have an "overbearing need" to be in a relationship, I'm more or less content with my life, I don't feel like I need someone else to augment my life, I just want someone I can mutually share life with.

I'd like to hear what Twistedmister might have to say about that

Me too.

I guess pushing her away would giver her a continuous challenge to gain my affection?

Yes. For sure. I have BPD/HPD........and it is also what i did to "control" the HPD girl i was obsessed with. It worked quite well. And before i was self-aware.......these things worked very well on me. They still do to a fair degree.


Disordered people choose people mostly based on their disorder.............i have a whole history of being with girls that were not pretty enough for me (easier to control usually) but were also poor communicators or socially awkward self-absorbed peopel (couldn't express how they felt in terms/actions that would satisfy).......that way, i couldn't lose or win.

If they cared for me, they weren't attractive enough for me to stay. And even if they cared, it would never feel like they did....as they were very selfish and seemingly uncaring to begin with......

So it was always a challenge........but one that i never felt (on some level) too invested in.

Is the pwHPD really consciously acting or do they actually believe that it's love too? I mean they aren't maliciously going about and consciously pretending to fall in love?

Yes and no. It depends.


Something never felt quite right with me............I always "thought" i was falling in love or was in love....but at the sametime, was aware that i was not. That these people were not enough for me and that i was faking to some degree.
I compensated for this.........by, well.......denial. lol

It's like i had bad acne in high school........but i basically don't remember that. I mean, i remember being aware of it.....but only when i was looking in the mirror.
Same thing with my relationships............i remember being aware i didn't really care for them as much as i said i did.........but only when i wasn't with them. WHen i was with them........i really cared (most of the time). Actually that isn't true.......but half the time..........which was enough , to keep them invested.


Ok whatever....take that any way you want.


Really though.........it was all about them, by way of it being all about me. It was all about how they felt about me..........i didn't really care, if i didn't like them............all i cared about was whether or not they liked me. The SECOND i felt like they did..........my desire diminished greatly.




I wouldn't say my relationships weren't real................they just weren't normal. And they weren't what the people in them, would have wanted.
My biggest fear........is that people feel the way i do about them, about me. That must say something.


Anyways, whatever it says.........I'm ok with.

RE Histrionics and sex, according to many researchers a significant percentage of HPD females are susceptible to sexually dissatisfaction early on in a relationship, or are even initially incapable of orgasms - which gives them even more dramatic material to enact as they move about from one relationship to the next.

ghost5of7 wrote:

Perseveratia wrote:As painful as this is to read, it's also enlightening. I just still can't see my ex who wasn't an "HPD" but possibly had hpd as a manipulative controller. I mean I can, but at the same time I can't believe there wasn't real love there.

Maybe it's just because I have borderline personality disorder. I guess pushing her away would giver her a continuous challenge to gain my affection? I'd like to hear what Twistedmister might have to say about that. Is it possible that she got stuck in the initial phase of trying to gain my attention and attraction that we got stuck in the first phases of what a pwHPD goes through?

Is the pwHPD really consciously acting or do they actually believe that it's love too? I mean they aren't maliciously going about and consciously pretending to fall in love?

There's going to be some objection to my opinion but the answer to your questions is: No, they don't believe it's love... and Yes, they DO consciously pretend to fall in love. The malice doesn't always come in untill after the thrill of "the catch" is done and they're bored with you. It's hard for Nons to understand because we don't understand the external nature of the HPD mentality. They don't love the person, but rather the validation that person gives them. Gaining the person's love is a "victory"... Losing the person is a "loss"... Therefore they'll do whatever it takes to "catch" (and keep) the person. The "thrill" like I said only lasts for a short time for them. When they're bored with us as a supply, the malice starts.. and they find other men. From what you said about pushing her away.. it's likely that you got the full force of her attention. Being emotionally unavailable makes their victory all the more sweet.
One other thing about HPD's is that they have a defensive need to deny and suppress that which they find unacceptable. Because playing with someone's emotions like they do is so painful and despicable... there's a VERY strong need for them to find ways to deny, mitigate, or twist the reality of what they do... With respect to the poster.. the "assuming more intimacy in the relationship" is an example of 'twisting'. The assumption of intimacy is a method of accelerating the game they play. Because there's so much ego involved with the HPD... there's a vested interest in declaring "victory" as soon as possible. I'd bet that this appeared to you as a very deep and natural connection with your ex.

I know it's hard to accept. It's why so many of us Nons keep going back to our ex hpd's despite serious emotional damage... But recognizing them for what they are early is key.

This was my experience as well. I wonder if Ghost and I dated the same woman Many HPD's are cold manipulators (to the extent that HPD's as a class was broadbrushed as to be composed of female psychopaths).
Since this thread is clearly stated to be for Non's, it would seem to me that Psych Forums has a moral responsibility to allow material that warns and protects the mental health of both male and female Non's from the more predatory HPD subtypes (that by now we all know Ghost and I ran into).

Orion wrote "This was my experience as well. I wonder if Ghost and I dated the same woman Many HPD's are cold manipulators (to the extent that HPD's as a class was broadbrushed as to be composed of female psychopaths).
Since this thread is clearly stated to be for Non's, it would seem to me that Psych Forums has a moral responsibility to allow material that warns and protects the mental health of both male and female Non's from the more predatory HPD subtypes (that by now we all know Ghost and I ran into)."unquote

Symptoms of Histrionic Personality Disosrder




Symptoms

Constantly seeking reassurance or approval
Excessive dramatics with exaggerated displays of emotion
Excessive sensitivity to criticism or disapproval
Inappropriately seductive appearance or behavior
Overly concerned with physical appearance
Tendency to believe that relationships are more intimate than they actually are
Self-centeredness, uncomfortable when not the center of attention
Low tolerance for frustration or delayed gratification
Rapidly shifting emotional states that appear shallow to others
Opinions are easily influenced by other people, but difficult to back up with details

Symptoms of Antisocial Personality Disorder (sometimes called psychopathy)

Diagnostic Criteria
There is a pervasive pattern of disregard for and violation of the rights of others occurring since age 15 years, as indicated by three (or more) of the following:

failure to conform to social norms with respect to lawful behaviors as indicated by repeatedly performing acts that are grounds for arrest

deceitfulness, as indicated by repeated lying, use of aliases, or conning others for personal profit or pleasure

impulsivity or failure to plan ahead

irritability and aggressiveness, as indicated by repeated physical fights or assaults

reckless disregard for safety of self or others

consistent irresponsibility, as indicated by repeated failure to sustain consistent work behavior or honor financial obligations

lack of remorse, as indicated by being indifferent to or rationalizing having hurt, mistreated, or stolen from another

The individual is at least age 18 years.

There is evidence of Conduct Disorder with onset before age 15 years.

The occurrence of antisocial behavior is not exclusively during the course of Schizophrenia or a Manic Episode.

HPD and Antisocial Personality Disorder are two distinct and separate conditions. If you visit the ASPD forum here, you will see a different flavour of postings, attitudes, beliefs and thought patterns to those expressed on this forum by HPDs. Yes, there are very rare subtypes of HPD, including Disingenous HPD, which might include antisocial features. The majority of those with HPD, however, do not fall into this category.

I agree that the pain of some nons who have been in a toxic relationship with a person with any type of disorder is very real and very valid. I myself have been in a particularly bad relationship with a man who had strong antisocial traits, possibly the disorder. I know from experience the long lasting effects of being in such a relationship. I wish I had known about Psychforums at that time. Unfortunately for technical reasons it's not possible for the Board to create a separate forum for nons, which is why I edit the posts here to indicate if it's a thread for nons. (I'd like to remind you all to indicate this in your threads, to save me a lot of time) There are also other forums on here where people who are/have been in toxic relationships can post - the Relationship Forum, the Domestic Abuse forums (domestic abuse includes all kinds of relationship abuse, not just physical), the Bullying Forum, all of the Personality Disorder Forums, and in many cases if I feel that people can also be helped on these forums, I will move the thread there, often leaving a shadow thread here so that people visiting this forum can access it. The moderators here all work very hard to ensure that these people are heard, supported, and treated with respect.

This forum is primarily for those suffering from HPD, and for those dealing with the issues surrounding it. The moderators here also work very hard to see that the HPDs are treated with respect, heard, and supported. Some of their threads are marked HPD threads in order to encourage postings from HPDs to listen and understand each other.

To suggest that the Board has a "moral duty" to warn people of the dangers of getting involved with a HPD would compromise the forum, be disrespectful to the majority of HPDs who DO NOT have antisocial traits, and be counter productive to its aims of being primarily a support forum for HPD.
The moderators across the Board work very hard behind the scenes to ensure fair treatment for all who access all of the forums. If a poster perceives that the issues they bring to the HPD forum might be triggering for those who suffer from a very real, emotionally distressing, often disabling disorder, then they too have a moral obligation to post in a more appropriate forum.

There can be strong emotional pain involved in a relationship where one or the other is craving a good sexual relationship, associates the sex with strong emotions/love/self-esteem, finds it, then for whatever reasons, their partner withdraws physically (even if they are otherwise involved).

When in that position, one thing we do have control over is coming to understand why we feel that way, why so much of our sense of self-esteem is anchored in the sexual aspect of the relationship. It also seems that for some it is common to feel deep anger/hurt/other-feelings over those who are apparently able to have sex, and treat it as seemingly meaningless. While I have my own theories as to why, I think sometimes what's going on is that a person who associates deep feelings, deep feelings of self-esteem with sex, feel it's an absolute truth that runs so deep that they never question their own feelings. I don't mean question for the purpose of changing those feelings, but questioning for the purpose of understanding ourselves and understanding what in ourselves is at the root of those feelings.

Xdude wrote "There can be strong emotional pain involved in a relationship where one or the other is craving a good sexual relationship, associates the sex with strong emotions/love/self-esteem, finds it, then for whatever reasons, their partner withdraws physically (even if they are otherwise involved).

When in that position, one thing we do have control over is coming to understand why we feel that way, why so much of our sense of self-esteem is anchored in the sexual aspect of the relationship. It also seems that for some it is common to feel deep anger/hurt/other-feelings over those who are apparently able to have sex, and treat it as seemingly meaningless. While I have my own theories as to why, I think sometimes what's going on is that a person who associates deep feelings, deep feelings of self-esteem with sex, feel it's an absolute truth that runs so deep that they never question their own feelings. I don't mean question for the purpose of changing those feelings, but questioning for the purpose of understanding ourselves and understanding what in ourselves is at the root of those feelings." unquote

Yes, I agree with this. Xdude has made some very good points here.

xdude wrote:There can be strong emotional pain involved in a relationship where one or the other is craving a good sexual relationship, associates the sex with strong emotions/love/self-esteem, finds it, then for whatever reasons, their partner withdraws physically (even if they are otherwise involved).

When in that position, one thing we do have control over is coming to understand why we feel that way, why so much of our sense of self-esteem is anchored in the sexual aspect of the relationship. It also seems that for some it is common to feel deep anger/hurt/other-feelings over those who are apparently able to have sex, and treat it as seemingly meaningless. While I have my own theories as to why, I think sometimes what's going on is that a person who associates deep feelings, deep feelings of self-esteem with sex, feel it's an absolute truth that runs so deep that they never question their own feelings. I don't mean question for the purpose of changing those feelings, but questioning for the purpose of understanding ourselves and understanding what in ourselves is at the root of those feelings.

... well i can tell you why sitting on both sides of the fence. the reason is because the person never had to "work" for it. seriously. they always had it but never had to work for it, it never gave them a sense of justification for it, that's why they associate a large part of their sense of self and self-esteem with it. i only learned that when i got into bodybuilding during the last few years. honestly i stopped being such a "hound" because of it.

...

oh i see i didn't read the rest of your paragraph. that being said... i agree with it too.