HPD with incest

******Edited by Admin.******
Implying that HPDs as young children (none are Dxd as kids) are partially responsible for incest is Ridiculous, Disrespectful and IGNORANT.
Do not post this garbage here again.
One

Alice Wrote: Because everything within the Borderline is transient, forever shifting and completely unstable- even their own identity.

Thanks for the article Alice. It explains my question and makes sense.

Alice,

Can’t thank you enough for that fantastic article reference. There is real “beef” in there. It’s a gold mine!

Wilkinson-Ryan & Westen, 2000 wrote:Identity Disturbance in Borderline Personality Disorder: An Empirical Investigation
Tess Wilkinson-Ryan, A.B., and Drew Westen, Ph.D
Am J Psychiatry 157:4, April 2000
http://ajp.psychiatryonline.org/cgi/reprint/157/4/528

Wanted to highlight some points here, hopefully in a way that’s much quicker to access than the original article.

The researchers start out speculating that Identity Disorder is a key component of BPD (which they pretty much assume is the “root” disorder of HPD – ie. HPD is really just BPD in general)

The basic question was, how do people officially diagnosed with BPD (including HPD) differ from people who are NOT diagnosed with any PD, as evaluated by experienced therapist?

Skipping right to the beef. The therapists rated people on a 1–7 scale (1=not true at all, 4=somewhat true, and 7=very true). The BPD group got higher points ratings than the Non’s on the following thirty five items. See below. (example: the BPD group averaged 2.6 points higher (on that 7 point scale) on the item “Feelings about self change rapidly or unpredictably” vs. the Non group)

Next, they threw all the data into a machine and said basically, listen, when we drafted up each of those items we were just working off the top of our heads. Likely we had a ton of duplication. Computer, take all our 35 items and note all the similar patterns of response. Then group like response into “factors” of highly similar response. Perhaps later we can eliminate the dupes and make a shorter “test”. Or, more valuable, we can look at each item in the Factor, open our minds real wide, and try to understand the underlying similarity and hopefully learn something valuable. The computer then went to work!

Note – researchers are super tired at the point where they get the computer output. In this case 35 items grouped into four factors and a “other” category. They look at those items in each group and then creatively attempt to come up with a label. This is very important – all the computer work can be magnificent, however there is frequently human error and potential for huge miscommunication in applying those terse verbal labels! Note to self and others remember what you know about factor rotations: NEVER TRUST THE LABELS! They are at best shorthand. Always study the underlying items and then mentally agree, disagree, or at least better understand the very shorthand label that’s been applied. In the following study here are the factor labels:

• painful incoherence
• role absorption
• inconsistency
• lack of commitment

With that in mind here are the results, beginning with the average points spread BPD/HPD vs. NON, as grouped by the computer into factors.

painful incoherence
|2.6| Feelings about self change rapidly or unpredictably
|2.6| Patient sometimes feels unreal
|2.5| Patient fears he or she would no longer exist or would lose own identity if close relationship were to end
|2.4| In close relationships, patient fears losing own identity
|2.0| Patient tends to feel empty inside
|1.9| Patient tends to feel like he or she does not know who own self is
|1.8| Patient tends to feel like a “false self” whose social persona does not match inner experience
|1.8| Patient lacks a sense of continuity over time or has difficulty recalling day to day what he or she has done

role absorption
|2.0| Patient defines self in terms of a label that provides a sense of identity
|1.9| Patient appears conflicted about racial or ethnic identity (e.g., totally disavows it or defines self primarily in terms of it)
|1.5| Patient has had dramatic religious experiences felt to have changed his or her life (e.g., “born again” experiences)
|1.4| Patient has had “epiphany” experiences (e.g., sudden, dramatic revelations about self) felt to have changed his or her life
|1.1| Sense of identity revolves around membership in a stigmatized group (e.g., child of an alcoholic, sexual abuse survivor)
|1.0| Patient “displays” identity in ways that appear unusual or deviant (e.g., multiple tattoos, piercings, highly peculiar hair style or coloring)
|1.0| Identity seems to revolve around a “cause” or shifting causes (e.g., defines self by membership in a political movement)
|0.8| Political beliefs have shifted frequently or dramatically
|0.8| Patient appears conflicted or unsure about own gender
|0.8| Patient identifies self primarily with a group that seems unusual given sex, race, or ethnicity

inconsistency
|2.3| Views of self change rapidly or unpredictably
|1.9| Patient frequently behaves in ways that seem inconsistent or contradictory
|1.9| Patient holds grossly inconsistent or contradictory beliefs
|1.8| Patient feels as though he or she is a different person depending on whom he or she is with
|1.7| Beliefs and actions often seem grossly contradictory (e.g., espouses conservative sexual values while behaving promiscuously)
|1.5| Personality changes dramatically depending on whom patient is with; personality is “chameleon-like”
|1.0| Sense of self depends on relationship to a charismatic other; tends to be in the orbit of a strong personality

lack of commitment
|1.9| Views of whom patient would like to be are unstable and ever changing
|1.7| Patient tends to confuse own thoughts with those of others
|1.6| Patient has trouble committing to long-term goals or aspirations
|1.2| Values tend to change frequently; patient does not seem to have a constant set of core values
|1.0| Patient has had difficulty choosing and committing to an occupation

Other - not related to any factor above
|2.3| Patient has trouble telling life story; narrative accounts have large gaps or inconsistencies
|1.9| Patient has memories only available under certain states
|1.0| Patient appears conflicted or unsure about whether he or she is heterosexual, homosexual, or bisexual
|0.8| Patient embraces identity of a person who is “bad”
|0.4| Identity centers around not being like someone else


Note also. Just because an item is not “linked” to a factor doesn’t mean it is superfluous. For instance the two lead items under “Other” are quite interesting and significant.

• |2.3| Patient has trouble telling life story; narrative accounts have large gaps or inconsistencies
• |1.9| Patient has memories only available under certain states

They get “tossed” out by the computer as “unrelated to the found factors”. Recall that UP FRONT, the researchers tossed around a bunch of ides that resulted in the drafting of 35 “speculative” items. That never means they hit 100% of the interesting or relevant territory. At the computer analysis phase its always garbage in – garbage out. The computer factor analysis does a great job of eliminating duplication, however it can’t say to the researchers “you were 30 degrees off target” initially with your list of items. Go back, come up with better items, that are more on target! Then I’ll find more factors and better factors for you,, but I must have the best input data at the outset. In this instance I’d say these oddballs here are actually deadly on target in describing BPD vs NON. They may be “rejectable” here because the authors only want to focus only on identity disturbances. They are however undoubtedly part of the whole enchilada!

• Patient has trouble telling life story; narrative accounts have large gaps or inconsistencies
  This is synonymous with “reflective function” or “self reflective function” (search this forum for much more!)
• Patient has memories only available under certain states
  This is very close or dead on to “dissociation”. Again, look up in this forum “disassociation” in the HPD forum.

The researchers in this study did “drill down a bit” what they found was very interesting!

Above authors, citing other studies wrote:source: Westen D, Shedler J: Revising and assessing axis II, part II: toward an empirically based and clinically useful classification of personality disorders. Am J Psychiatry 1999; 156:273–285 and
Shedler J, Westen D: Refining the measurement of axis II: a Q-sort procedure for assessing personality pathology. Assessment 1998; 54:333–353

Identity Disturbance and Borderline Subtypes
Of all patients diagnosed with BPD they isolated two distinct

Type 1 - Dysphoric features (emotionally dysregulated)
Intense, painful, and poorly regulated emotions
Attempt to escape painful emotions by using various maladaptive affect-regulatory strategies.

Type 2 Histrionic features
Have emotions that are intense and dramatic
However emotions are not very troubling to them
Their dramatic emotions may even be self-defining.

In this study they looked at all the patients who were diagnosed BPD (including the both subtypes above) and then looked to see how ratings on each of the four factors might predict/be related to the Histrionic sub type:

The results were (r is correlation to Histrionic features)

• role absorption (r=0.24, chance of error 3 in 100)
• inconsistency (r=0.19, chance of error 8 in 100)
• lack of commitment (r=0.13, chance of error 28 in 100)
• painful incoherence (r=–0.07, chance of error 50 in 100)

Strikingly, the “painful incoherence” factor, which correlates so strongly with borderline personality
disorder in general, showed a slightly negative correlation to borderline with Histrionic features

“Thus, some elements of identity disturbance appear more closely associated with histrionic [features] than with [“classic” Dysphoric] borderline features, particularly role absorption, and, secondarily, inconsistency” [And I might add – “painful incoherence” – a factor highly correlated with BPD in general is basically not a factor (or even slightly negative) in predicting BPD–HPD subtype. This is a good argument that although BPD and HPD have very similar roots, they later manifest themselves in rather significant different ways!]

But wait, just when you thought you had all the gold out of this mine you discover the researchers went the extra mile and even threw us a few bones in the HPD/BPD with incest area, the original focus of this thread

Sexual Abuse, Borderline Personality Disorder, and Identity Disturbance

One of the goals of this research was to disentangle the role of sexual abuse history in borderline identity disturbance. In the present study, half of the borderline patients had a history of sexual abuse (in comparison with 11.5% of the subjects without borderline personality disorder), which allowed us to examine the relation between identity disturbance and borderline personality disorder while holding sexual abuse constant. The data suggest that sexual abuse contributes to only one aspect of borderline identity disturbance and does not account for all of the variance on even that aspect.

Many researchers have found a strong relationship between a history of sexual abuse and dissociative symptoms. [Brodsky BS, Cloitre M, Dulit RA: Relationship of dissociation to self-mutilation and childhood abuse in borderline personality disorder. Am J Psychiatry 1995; 152:1788–1792 ||| Keaney JC, Farley M: Dissociation in an outpatient sample of women reporting childhood sexual abuse. Psychol Rep 1996; 78:59–65 ||| Neumann DA, Houskamp BM, Pollock VE, Briere J: The longterm sequelae of childhood sexual abuse in women: a metaanalytic review. Child Maltreatment 1997; 1:6–16]

Sexual abuse history was highly correlated primarily with the painful incoherence factor, [on the order of less than 1 in 1000 chance of error] and the item content of this factor suggests that sexual abuse history may play a role in the more dissociative aspects of identity disturbance.

Reminder item content of the “Painful Incoherence” factor (…never trust only the label…)

• Feelings about self change rapidly or unpredictably
• Patient sometimes feels unreal
• Patient fears he or she would no longer exist or would lose own identity if close relationship were to end
• In close relationships, patient fears losing own identity
• Patient tends to feel empty inside
• Patient tends to feel like he or she does not know who own self is
• Patient tends to feel like a “false self” whose social persona does not match inner experience
• Patient lacks a sense of continuity over time or has difficulty recalling day to day what he or she has done

Although the painful incoherence factor was strongly associated with a sexual abuse history, the model that best predicted subjects’ scores on this factor included both abuse history and borderline diagnosis. The patient’s painful concern about identity incoherence is not only the result of trauma; it appears to be integral to the nature of borderline personality disorder, whether or not the patient has an abuse history. Sexual abuse was largely uncorrelated with the other three identity factors, all of which are associated with borderline personality disorder.

Said another way –

• traumatic sexual abuse can occur without BPD later developing (only half diagnosed with BPD had traumatic sexual abuse histories)
• BPD can occur independent of prior traumatic childhood abuse (again only half diagnosed with BPD had traumatic sexual abuse histories)
• If childhood abuse occurred BPD, is a strongly possible later outcome
• If sexual abuse occurred painful incoherence is likely, particularly “the more dissociative aspects of identity disturbance”
• The “painful incoherence” factor associated with traumatic sexual abuse histories is highly similar to the “painful incoherence” associated with BPD’s who have did not have traumatic sexual abuse history.

Conjecture…

1. perhaps there is massive underreporting of childhood sexual abuse history in BPD’s due to the dissociative aspects
2. the “trauma experience” in childhood that contributes to BPD forming in adulthood is very similar emotionally to the emotional effects of actual, physical childhood sexual abuse

I observed, ironically, that the 'Painful Incoherence' factor/category contained the least coherent set of items. These seemed to be all over the place, and often seemed as if they could be related to, even causes of, other items within other factor groups. I looked for why this might be, and noted that most were "feelings", whereas in the other factors (including 'Others') most were behaviors, and could be derivatives of (e.g., results, coping mechanisms, etc.) these feelings.

It would then make sense that a super-category of feelings would not be granular enough to establish differences of HPD traits, and that behaviors (manifestations) which could be closer associated with BPD subtype traits would have better correlations to subtypes like HPD.

This may go back to your point about how the items were grouped. I'd be curious to see the evolution of the factor groups, and if they were influenced by the data or first correlations thereof.

I found the proposing of 2 "types" of BPD interesting in that they are differentiated by more deep and repressive (type 1) or more shallow and expressive (type 2) reaction to excessive emotions, which are possibly associated with hyper outputs from the emotion-generation parts of the brain deep limbic) or dysfunctions in the processing parts of the brain (e.g., pre-frontal cortex, basal ganglia), or both.

RealityCheque,

Most excellent and thought provoking post! Loved your detail exam of the items vs. the factor label. Could relate to your internal vs. external, and brain function observations.

Case study: this legendary (perhaps BPD/HPD) gal went ballistic and totally acted out on her mate, after something really set her emotions ablaze. (She learned he imposed an oppressive taxation on his tenants!)

Click here for a photo

Yes, she is none other than Lady Godiva. O.K. if you only have two choices which one was she?

• Type 1 - Dysphoric features (emotionally dysregulated) or,
• Type 2 - Histrionic features

realitycheque wrote:I found the proposing of 2 "types" of BPD interesting in that they are differentiated by more deep and repressive (type 1) or more shallow and expressive (type 2) reaction to excessive emotions, which are possibly associated with hyper outputs from the emotion-generation parts of the brain deep limbic) or dysfunctions in the processing parts of the brain (e.g., pre-frontal cortex, basal ganglia), or both.

Very interesting!

I could not help but further speculate that Exhibitionism (in the broadest sense of the word, not really restricted to hard core sexual flashing, but also provocative dress, movement, ornamentation, flamboyancy, extroversion etc.) might be in tune with your "more expressive" observation of type 2, and in keeping with "emotions that are intense and dramatic, however emotions that are not very troubling to them". i.e. very uninhibited!.

That led me to look at any professional literature on women exhibitionists to try to find clues as to what does that behavior "do for them"? Here is what I found.

Are you an exhibitionist?
Source: Myjoyonline.com
[ok this is not a real professional article but it is purportedly written by an unknown therapist]

• exhibitionism tops the list of frequent fantasies for women
• the potential of being caught is a turn on
• thrill of possibly being seen or heard while otherwise sexually engaged increases the brain's transmission of dopamine, a neurotransmitter which is similar to adrenaline - lays a big role in sexual excitement.
• "Adrenaline makes the heart grow fonder.” (psychologist Elaine Hatfield) [the turn on] may simply be a byproduct of that all-consuming, can't-keep-your-hands-off-each-other feeling, in which love is not only blind to the opinions of others, but also to their gaze.
• broad appeal may be strongly related to our first youthful experiences with the intense pleasure of orgasm, which most of us experienced (whether on our own or with someone else) when the possibility of getting caught was close by - say, in our parents' house.
• formative experiences may establish a powerful link between the particular risk of getting caught and the singular pleasure of sexual gratification. [see below re: pregenital period...]
• an underlying sense of power that comes from being observed - a power in knowing that we may be arousing the watcher(s).
• strong compulsion to experience power through the premise of arousing others
• women also experience a power and pleasure in being desired, hence the female propensity to engage in various acts of exhibitionism
• much amateur porn features women who are often making love as much - even more - to the person on the other side of the camera as the person they're actually with.
• not just about the thrill of getting caught, it's about being seen, admired, loved and appreciated.
• a desperate attempt to be wanted and sexually craved by one and all.

[This one did not yield much....]
Women Showing Off: Notes on Female Exhibitionism
Rosemary H. Balsam

• a normative spectrum
• pleasurably active sex seeking
• pleasurable procreative desire
• fantasy that is present in a female's use of her body

Sexual Exhibitionism as ‘Sexuality and Individuality’: A Critique of Psycho-Medical Discourse from the Perspectives of Women who Exhibit
Siobhan Hugh-Jones , Brendan Gough, Annie Littlewood

• discourse analysis
• women exhibitionists normalized female exhibitionism vs. male exhibitionism
• used psycho-medical constructions for males
• used more positive, self-constructions for themselves
• ‘personal fulfillment’
• ‘self as responsible’
• 'socially supported’

I thought the following were especially relevant to the BPD/HPD w/incest theme

Genital exhibitionism in women.
Hollender, Marc H.; Brown, C. Winston; Roback, Howard B.
The American Journal of Psychiatry, Vol 134(4), Apr 1977, 436-438.

• female exhibitionism is on its pregenital, attention-seeking purpose

I seem to recall female exhibitionism is very normal in the preopedial / oedipal period. When daughter would love to get dad's attention but physical touch is extremely taboo and really would upset mom....and dad! However being noticed and validated as attractive was very normal and beneficial.

SINGLE CASE STUDY Female Exhibitionism
GROB, CHARLES S. M.D.

• emotional deprivation led to
• feelings of rejection
• inability to develop empathic relationships
• When subject to a blow to her self-esteem
• sought validation through exhibitionism

Exhibitionism as countershame
Judith L. Silverstein Ph.D.

• Genital exhibitionism is motivated by a need for
• attention and admiration
• a wish to overcome shame and feelings of inadequacy
• a sexualized form of countershame [spot on!]
• an unsuccessful repetition compulsion [spot on!]
• to overcome the trauma of shame and humiliation
• to create feelings of pride and power [victim becomes abuser!]
• leading to sexual arousal.

okherewego212 wrote:Thanks for the article Alice. It explains my question and makes sense.

wisdom wrote:Alice,
Can’t thank you enough for that fantastic article reference. There is real “beef” in there. It’s a gold mine!

No Problem- glad to help you both!

realitycheque wrote:I found the proposing of 2 "types" of BPD interesting in that they are differentiated by more deep and repressive (type 1) or more shallow and expressive (type 2) reaction to excessive emotions, which are possibly associated with hyper outputs from the emotion-generation parts of the brain deep limbic) or dysfunctions in the processing parts of the brain (e.g., pre-frontal cortex, basal ganglia), or both.

RC,
There's a similar discussion about brain matter & biopsychology going on in the AsPD forum right now, and seeing here how things could possibly be affected differently in the brain, between the 2 types of BPD mentioned above, I'm wondering if I could ask you a few questions about the brain and it's mechanics.

In the 2 different types of BPD depicted above, you say it could be either deep limbic, or PFC, Basal ganglia, or both- right? Now do you think that these deficiancies/abnormalities ocurred at the time of the trauma and hence decided how the behaviour/symptoms would play out after the damage of the traumatic stressor, or did the behaviours change due to the trauma which inturn cause the damage to the brain over an extended period of time in which these areas were missused?
Almost, what came frist- the chicken (damage to the brain itself due to trauma) or the egg (the behaviours because of the trauma)?

And in the case were there is same general disorder, but with different variables (ie. the docile/masochistic BPD vs. the extroverted/sadistic BPD) has the brain been damaged differently, and if so, was is at impact of the stressor, or because of behavioural changes due the trauma?

I'm very curious about the biological aspect of the disorder; but to be honest I have a hard time understanding the jargon and structures when reading a lot of that stuff. It would appear my brain doesn't like things which are concrete and doesn't retain them very well (math, science, anything firm and unyeilding- I have a hard time comprehending for some reason) so neuroscience is something that's just beyond me I'm afraid...

I would like to understand though how these things happen in the brain, when they happen and what determins which type of damage is to occur over another- if you have any simplified information on that I would apreciate it.

wisdom wrote:"Adrenaline makes the heart grow fonder.” (psychologist Elaine Hatfield) [the turn on] may simply be a byproduct of that all-consuming, can't-keep-your-hands-off-each-other feeling, in which love is not only blind to the opinions of others, but also to their gaze.

WOW! That makes so much sense!!!

That greatly explains one of the major ties I have to my most recent XBF. We were all about adrenaline/dopamine, sex and pleasure, and honestly not much more than that at all; but the compulsion was strong on both sides, and we mistook it to be love... More hooked on a feeling, than anything tangible...

wisdom wrote:thrill of possibly being seen or heard while otherwise sexually engaged increases the brain's transmission of dopamine, a neurotransmitter which is similar to adrenaline - lays a big role in sexual excitement.

I also see this in my other sexual behaviours as well. Not just with exabitionism; but it has to be something high impact in order to be stimulating. It has to be something dangerous, exciting, thrilling, deviant, taboo, crazy and impulsive in order for me to get really into it and have any kind of pleasure or true release at all. And if those things aren't there, it's merely the mechanics... Very dull, very boaring, and more frusterating than pleasurable because I end up wishing it was more exciting than what it is. I think that's a huge component of what kept with my XBF so long. We were always pushing the envelope, and trying to bring our fantasies to life. There was no line we wouldn't cross for each other- it was the perfect storm of like minded pervs but outside of our shared sexuality we had very little in common.

wisdom wrote: strong compulsion to experience power through the premise of arousing others
women also experience a power and pleasure in being desired, hence the female propensity to engage in various acts of exhibitionism
much amateur porn features women who are often making love as much - even more - to the person on the other side of the camera as the person they're actually with.
not just about the thrill of getting caught, it's about being seen, admired, loved and appreciated.
a desperate attempt to be wanted and sexually craved by one and all.

Everything quoted above is absolutely true for me personally, and the parts that are exactly right and speak loudest to me I highlighted in red.
WOW! It's like you're reading my own inner drives to me on the page and that's crazy!

That's absolutely what it was like being a stripper and shooting porn:
- It was an amazing rush of being highly desired which gives even more control because men (being the competitve speciese and pride hoards they are) always want to have the woman who is the most beautiful and most desired. Hence what I've always stated about guys wanting to 'own' me...
- The making love to those on the otherside of the camera is SOOOOOOO SPOT ON!!!! As much as I loved filming and creating new ideas for videos, loved watching myself on the camera (both while taping and afterwards), it was all done with the viewers in mind and to them/not for them- if that makes sense.
- Even in my solo shoots (me by myself) I would get highly aroused knowing that my guys would be seeing this and enjoying it.
- Same thing with stripping! It wasn't about justmaking money and getting naked, it was about seeping into the mind and desires of every man in the room. Entrancing them into my sexuality and making them want me. Even other girls in the bar would stop and watch the stage while I was up there... I was never some bobbing bimbo smiling and jumping around- I was always very seductive and expressive in my moves, facial expressions and aura. That combination of innocent, coyness blended with deviance- the good girl with a freaky side and penetrating vibrance of confident feminine whiles. While I was up there it was my job to bring them into MY world! A younger girl once asked me how I did that? How did I 'fk them from the stage like that'? I didn't know 'how' I just did it and it felt so good too.

It's crazy to think that the difference in my stage shows could be becuase of my PDs but yes, I can honestly attest to the fact that those statements are increadably true, and in some very erry ways.

wisdom wrote:Yes, she is none other than Lady Godiva. O.K. if you only have two choices which one was she?

Type 1 - Dysphoric features (emotionally dysregulated) or,
Type 2 - Histrionic features

I'd say she's a Type 2- histrionic/impulsive because of her over sexuality and her indignation/need for revenge on her mate.





Wisdom,
Could you please explain more on 'Countertransference'? I did try to look it up online but it keeps bringing me to the type 3 of the enegram system, or splitting the word like, "in order to counter transference patient must..." and I'd really like to understand the term and the mechanisms better. Even a link to something would be great


Also, what specific element (for lack of a better word) of trauma/impact is the key factor of determining whether the victim becomes the aggressor, or takes a more placid role after childhood sexual abuse has ocurred? I do see how these things can each happen due to trauma; but what I mean is, what determins what makes it go one way and not the other?

Thanks!

Looking over a great thread HPD's - Creating jealousy to hurt people I’m struck that any PD with incest, including emotional incest likely includes huge aspects of morbid jealousy. Here I present an update on some possible roles of jealousy I wrote a while back and then present Masquerade’s really terrific (and very illuminating) inside, almost stream of conscious, accounting of how the jealousy feels and works inside an HPD’s mind. Masquerade’s account is really good because she was at one time quite "governed" by HPD but has managed, with great personal effort and great therapy, to really push it out of her life! She now has phenomenal abilities to self reflect, experience genuine empathy, and she knows tons about the disorder including how its treated. Her post is a very good account from the inside. See below.

First, my speculative reasons that BPDs (including HPDs) may be deploying jealousy (updated)

• bringing up prior mates in an odd way to prove (perhaps only to themselves) they are strongly sexually desirable. Or, to project into their mate their own morbid sense of vulnerability. When the Non actually starts experiencing pain (which he was likely maneuvered into feeling) the PD, totally unconscious of the fact they have “engineered” that, on another level, identifies themselves with the Non’s live experience of it. The end result is the PD is validated and comforted by the distress the Non is experiencing. Sort of birds of a feather and/or "power truce" / détente.
  
• overt flirting with others as a way to control the current mate – “See how vulnerable you are to my rejection / abandonment of you? Can you feel that? If you don’t attend to me in every way I need so I never experience that dreaded feeling of being vulnerable to abandonment, if you slip up even one little bit, I'll…I’ll…I’ll run off with someone else. Can you see how easy it would be for me to do that? I’m good at this. See how good I am at it? What’s that, fear I smell from you? I can relate! The intense need for validation is then blame shifted back to the Non - I had no choice! You made me feel horrible! I had to do it! What did you expect? Flirting as a way to maneuver the mate into experiencing that morbid dreaded feeling that’s inside them – if they do (did) not conform to some expectation they are (were) subject to rapid abandonment / replacement / freezing out / horrible punishment. They have to be hypervigilent and “at work” to be accepted and loved. They are perpetually stuck “on the hot seat” and at total risk! Because they have very low self worth and flawed at the core the only possible chance to “survive” is vigilant control of the supply! Control is absolutely necessary! [And wow does that take energy!]
  
• small, irregular “domination” behaviors that can’t be responded to due to moral / social / ethical / character constraints. Imagine two dog’s running around. Both dogs seem to be enjoying each other yet the alpha dog painfully bites the beta dog’s ear. The beta dog endures pain but blows it off in the interest of keeping fun activity going. He chooses to endure it and not take the time to escalate it into a showdown dogfight. He (falsely) assumes the other dog has empathy and "certainly" would not continue that aggressive behavior. Over time the alpha dog escalates and the beta dog takes more and more abuse. Some human examples here might be in public "horse play" where because of typical moral / social / ethical / character the partner is generally precluded from responding assertively / aggressively and tends to just suck it up. Things like “playfully” nipping your ear lobe in a painful way then acting surprised “such a little thing actually hurt”? Digging nails in during a relaxing backrub past the point where it feels good, then acting surprised / shocked that was painful? Out in public sticking their tong in your ear or your mouth, or kissing you hard and deeply at an odd time (in the total absence of any elation, passion, love, etc) feeling to the partner more like a deliberate act of domination vs. any sign of real affection.
  
• purposefully arousing a mate sexually to a fairly high level of excitement at a time when you two must part, and that excitement can't come to full expression/fruition. Note the rev up in excitement is not shared. (Its highly manipulative/exploitative.) The “hot and bothered” mate is frustrated, denied and held back. The promise is to reunite later for hot times together. Having no actual arousal themselves, this was really just a ploy to insure during the absence they would not be “forgotten”. And that the partner’s interest will not drift. On reunion the still needy partner wonders, wow I thought totally about her in our absence but for her it was much more “out of sight out of mind”.
  
• arranging to get calls on the cell phone when you will be spending couple time together, or checking their chats/email. It hindsight it seems like maneuvered to introduce doubt in your mind that you are on solid ground with them, that the exclusive pair-bond is safe and secure. In addition it seems to serve a need in them to be perceived as very popular/desirable. And perhaps to constantly “keep you on your toes attending to them” because you are very vulnerable.

On to Masquerade's most excellent write up on Creating Jealousy to Hurt People. I’ve reformatted it here and added some bolds and comments.

Thanks Masquerade!

masquerade wrote:The histrionic thought processes go something like this:

• If others validate me, I am worthy. I am nothing without validation.
  
• I do not have an identity or a personality of my own.
  
• I must appear at all times to be pleasing to the senses of others. [Wow that is a good one! Not only must I prep to be pleasing to others, but I must be hypervigilent and be sure that I'm on target and actually am, in real-time, very pleasing to others. Unless they are demonstrably reacting to me very favorably, in away I can sense, I'm not feeling good. And BTW, my senses are very highly honed! They are tuned to amplify any negative vibe! Should my partner"twitch" or have a momentary thought / look / facial muscle move / etc. of anything like disgust, I'll be hypervigalent to that and assume "it's me" then run with that horrible feeling.]
  
• If my partner does not pay me attention, he/she does not love me. If he/she does not love me, I am unworthy.
  
• If I am unworthy and I perceive that my partner has made me feel this way, this is a catastrophe and reminds me of all of the painful dramas of my childhood.
  
• It reinforces the pain I have buried for so long, that only finds expression in short bursts of dramatic but shallow emotion. It gets too painful to express, so I must bury it again and again.
  
• If others pay me attention, then my partner is lacking in some way. This makes me feel better about myself. I must prove to him/her that I am worthy of attention.
  
• If he/she gets jealous, it means they care about me. If he/she expresses pain because of this, then they are proving their love.
  
• I have suffered and therefore he/she must suffer too.
  
• If he/she is suffering, then they are vulnerable just like me and cannot therefore hurt me.
  
• The rules that I have laid down only apply to my partner and not to me. This gives me control. If I have control I can cope.
  
• He/she is not allowed to express an interest in others for this would reinforce my sense of low self esteem. I must not let them do this.
  
• I express jealousy because I love my partner, although I do not really comprehend love. Therefore if they love me they also express it.
  
• I cannot truly put myself in the position of others, because I have a distorted sense of self and so cannot possibly comprehend how others truly feel. I am out of touch with my own feelings, never mind the feelings of others.
  
• I cannot feel remorse because I am unaware of the extent of the damage that I create, because I am also damaged.
  
• My pain is all encompassing, even though I do not fully feel it or recognize it, and so my world consists of me, and only me.
  
• This is a lonely state of affairs, but I do not know how to let others in. I am afraid.
  
• I am a child in an adult's body.
  
• Help me. I love you. I hate you. I hate myself because of the hatred I grew up with.

I noticed that I fully identified with the "histrionic thought process" portion; but not so much with "deploying jealousy" part...

I'm not sure who's speculations are the jealousy part of this post; but I personally don't see those things manifesting in any of my behaviours, past or present.

bringing up prior mates something I've never done with a guy I'm currently dating, and this seems to be almost counter productive to me too. Why would you poisin the infatuation of a new man by bringing up the affairs with another/prior lover?

overt flirting with others as a way to control the current mate I never did this either, and infact I would avoid flirting with other guys infront of my 'new guy' because that would just cause jealousy and friction between us. I had a lot of male friends, and was a bit of a flirt when my BF wasn't around sure; but if guys were too friendly infront of HIM it was more of a headache than anything. So again this just seems rather counter productive to me in it's function.

arranging to get calls on the cell phone, checking their chats/email when you will be spending time together. Yet another counter productive thing in my opinion, and something I never ever did.


purposefully arousing a mate sexually to a fairly high level of excitement at a time when you two must part now this I did do! Before any of my guys would leave/I would leave them, I would take them to a place of desire and passion before we parted ways. Letting them know how wonderful I am (how much they want me) and keeping that image of lust playing on their mind until we were together again.

small, irregular “domination” behaviors that can’t be responded to due to moral / social / ethical / character constraints. yeah I did that too- lol. Sexually arousing them in public was always a fun form of torture, and a kind of foreplay for later on- lol. I don't think I ever looked at it as a dominating thing though, more so playful and insatiable mind fk, precurser to later ventures. Touching them, showing them a bit of flesh in a coy and alluring way, or sending them naughty text images/emails/images when we were apart- that kind of thing.



Now the reason I pointed these things out (the differences in what I found in the jealousy part of this post) is because I'd like to take it a step further and actually say how I personally used jealousy tactics on my guys (*MAY TRIGGER NONs* so please don't hate me for being honest about past behaviours) and how I also used devotion as an add on to the jealousy- to give it an even greater affect!


The main reason I never did the first 3 things I mentioned, and which I stated semed 'counter productive' was because it breeds suspision and distrust.
I would tell a new guy about past sexual experiences, yes; but not about the guy at all. I would make it about me and what I did, how much fun I had and something he would love too- taking the other person completely out of the scenario, and tailoring the sexuality to the new guys desires alone.
I would definitely flirt and have many male friends when my guy wasn't around, of course; but when he was there my attention was all on him, and he was my world completely- no one mattered.
Taking calls, texts, emails- never! But I would call, text and email with other guys when my guy wasn't around. I would just ignore any incoming communication while with my guy though, and make sure my focus was completely on HIM!

All of these center around devotion, and letting him know, see and feel he is the center of your world. Being as many of my guys and me met in the same school, workplace, clubs, websites, whatever, they were easily able to see the product of my 'side flirting' in the ways other guys wanted and desired me; but I wouldn't ever have promted these things infront of them, nor played into them while I was with my guy.
If a guy started hitting on me, flirting with me, something like that with my guy around I would quickly turn my attention back to my guy and parise him (right infront of the flirter) to give him a supported reasurance that he was 'the one'.

Jealousy on the part of my guys is always there. They were always aware of my admirers and how easily I could replace them if I so choose to.

Treating them like kings and placing them on that pedestal played a few functions:
1. it made them feel worshiped, seccure, admired and special. no one ever loved them the way I loved them because I loved them completely and utterly- they could do no wrong.
2. the feeling that my adoration created in them was like a drug they became addicted to, and they loved being with me just to have that intense feeling I provided.

Seeing other guys interest in me, was as reasuring at it was weakening. Other guys idolized me the same way I idolized my guy. Because I worshiped them, they could see what it felt like for me to be worshiped by others, and they were always on gard for someone sneaking into the queens underthings They didn't want to loose the feeling I gave them. They didn't want to loose the love and devotion I provided them. The saw very clearly that I recived this same very adictive thing from others, and they always knew that their throne (position) was precarious and completely under my control.

If they upset me, blew me off, made me mad- they could see very clearly how easily I could be gone, happy and forget all about them if that's what I wanted.

Because they became addicted to my devotion and admiration, they were willing to put up with a lot of drama just to have that feeling for as long as they could.
If ever I made a mistake, did something wrong- the devotion and seduction was always a sure fire way to get back into their hearts, make amends, mend the wounds and have them become addicted to me all over again.


I'm also guilty of throwing things in their face to create jealousy as well. But mine was much more in your face than some of these slights listed above....

I would directly say to my guys, "Well if you won't- I'll just find someone else who will." and I would.
I would use my other guys to fill my needs (not always sexual- this was usually more monitary with me than anything) and then use the devotion and praise to sneak back into my guys good graces, and make amends. Because my network of men was so big, they knew that if they wouldn't, I could easily find someone else who would, and they would usually give me what I wanted/needed/or at least an explanation of why they couldn't; but if they didn't I would get it some where else without hesitation.

Some of the more blantent mind games I would do to create jealousy would be:
- sending text messages meant for other guys to my BF asking for hook ups, thanking someone for sexual encounters, telling them something naughty and pretending it was a misdirected text. I also did that with emails.
- sending out mass emails to a bunch of guys, anouncing the fight we (my BF & I) had and saying I needed to get out of here/blow off steam/whatever, and making sure that my BF got a copy of it to see for himself that he made me mad and I was gonna replace him instantly.
- Sleeping with their best friends, or someone from work, someone they can't do anything about (bigger/stronger/more powerful/etc...) and throwing it in their face after the fact.
- I've even sent them pictures, videos and written detailed descriptions of what I did with other guys just to hurt them and breed that jealousy.

The kicker is- because they know how wonderful they feel with they're with me, and how much they crave that wonderful all the time; they know that if I give that wonderful to someone else- they could be gone.

The devotion and and admiration plays just as big a part in creating jealousy as any of the negative/in your face stuff does. Without that constant craving between the 2 of you, there's no real loss of anything. There's no threat.
Breeding into the lust and creating a world of your own (just for the 2 of you) is what keeps them addicted. We've talked about the addictivness of HPD women before.
Do you really think that if you weren't so drawn into her you would have accepted all the stuff she did to you???



So yeah, that's why I don't necessarily agree with the first 3 mentioned above- they serve no beneficial purpose, and actully harm the addiction itself.

My 2c

Additional thoughts

I feel like Masquerades stream of consciousness post is really good. Could become the basis for a "false beliefs" list, the characteristic ways HPDs reason that are not “best practices”. Yes, they were adaptive in youth when facing an abusive situation, but now those false beliefs need to go! That’s the only way to push out the HPD. Sort of a CBT "attack these false beliefs" approach.

AliceWonders wrote:Could you please explain more on 'Countertransference'? I did try to look it up online but it keeps bringing me to the type 3 of the enegram system, or splitting the word like, "in order to counter transference patient must..." and I'd really like to understand the term and the mechanisms better. Even a link to something would be great

Alice

To understand countertransference, just start with transference. You go to the shrink, you pay for an hour of therapy. Its your hour, you talk, its all about your issues. The shrink is a "blank slate". You start talking, after a while; the shrink himself (if he's good, he’s been a blank slate) then oddly starts to seem like one of your parents (or other significant relation). You find him for example, a perfectionist, a nitpicker, or not really interested in you, attending to you, etc. You essentially "paint" on him an echo of your difficult relationships. You "transfer" to him what is not really in him to him, and see that in him. What’s transferred is really coming from and echo of the relationship you had with one (or more) of your significant others.

There is no perfect therapist. All have their own issues. Hopefully they have been well analyzed as part of their training and most have been adequately resolved, or at least highly understood. Then they try very hard to be professional, keeping their own issues, beliefs, personal life, etc. out of your "therapeutic hour", that they sell to you. However that process is never flawless. Everyone has lingering issues of his or her own.

I've always noticed in deep psychotherapy, over time that "intersubjectivity" channel is open on both ends. I’ve long noted - "the psychotherapy door swings both ways" - meaning, even though it’s doctor on one side, and patient on the other, it doesn't mean the patient won’t occasionally feel right inside to the deep corners inside the doctor’s head! Just look at the interaction on the boards here, occasionally a very "disordered" person makes an absolutely brilliant psychiatric interpretation of someone classified as a Non, showing an uncanny, very deep understanding of their internal struggles, and being "spot on" in their interpretation.

Now excusing me for that slight transgression, back to your question. Counter transference is what the doctor feels about the patient due to his own baggage. That's right, he's 100% misreading the patient because he is splattering them with his own internal issues.

Ahh were it that simple, we could rest at this point. However there is on more element here, the BPD (including HPD) disorder itself is replete with projective identification. Patient projects on to the doctor, evokes something in him. Doctor feels it and experiences it as if it were coming from inside him orginally. Patient then identifies with that which was evoked in him, thinking, "that’s in him" when it really, actually "originated with her."

In treating BPD the doctor is advised to examine how he feels himself, inside. (Searching for feelings evoked in him that initially he may feel are coming from him but on close examination are found to have merely been projected upon him (as part of the infamous projective identification aspect of BPD above). Now his self-examination work is tricky. The doctor says, "I'm not really supposed to be reacting emotionally here, I'm supposed to be the blank slate. Are these emotions I'm experiencing part of me (perhaps his own baggage) or are they really being projected upon me by my patient “ (who BTW, is a world class pro at doing that).

If you remember SanStars you can understand just how complex this can get. She wanted help but didn't want to be deeply known. When she and her doctor got close, she started an active misinformation campaign to throw him way off, and brush the trail to the real her. She was masterful doing that. It was a fun game. She knew she was screwing herself doing it, but couldn't resist. She pitted her substantial intellect against his, playing a cat and mouse game using all her faculties to lead him astray, induce in him a feeling of helplessness and incompetency, and she likely harped unmercifully on any of his personal weakness. Having “the gift” she could likely read his personal unresolved issues in a heartbeat.

Experiencing ample emotions in dealing with her, he looked inside himself, trying to find what he genuinely felt about her, and collecting his thoughts on how he might help her with therapy? But as he looked inside himself all he could read was "this is a mess, I give up! I see her game and there is no moving forward here with her playing our game that way." He was eaten alive likely by his own countertransference. Game over. Therapy over.

AliceWonders wrote:what specific element (for lack of a better word) of trauma/impact is the key factor of determining whether the victim becomes the aggressor, or takes a more placid role after childhood sexual abuse has occurred? I do see how these things can each happen due to trauma; but what I mean is, what determines what makes it go one way and not the other?

This is a very tricky area!

Incest abuse, including psychological incest is a very odd blend

• Love & Caring – The perpetrator is very close to the to the victim. They are also together "inside the castle". There is generally long term close proximity. In most cases there is also substantial intimacy between the pair on some legitimate level.
• Co-Dependency – This in not obvious until you look deeply. The perpetrator and victim are oddly co-dependent. Its easy to spot that the child must have support, safety and love. What’s not immediately obvious is the perpetrator is likewise deeply dependent and perhaps can even be considered addicted to what that child supplies. What the perpetrator seeks is not readily available elsewhere.
• Electric Charge! - The actual violation of boundaries takes place in a very emotionally charged environment - either under strong incestuous/inappropriate romantic style love bonding and -or- under possibly under horrendous physical pain and abuse - in either case, the strength of the emotional "charge" between the pair is undeniably there.
• Electric Discharge! – one or both of the pair end up discharging intense orgasms. It’s often said that a young child simply can’t process that much pleasure appropriately, it’s just too much. The adult also gets the huge neurochemical hit from it. Otherwise, why take the risk?
• Abuse - The adult crossed the line, lacked sufficient awareness, education, or self constraint . They went ahead and violated the emotional and/or physical defenses of the child
• Trauma Bonds - the above “cocktail” leaves to very enduring trauma bonds

In terms of why BPDers evolve placid or active, I don't really have an cue. Why one victim chooses to "suck it up" and then later overflows with horrible emotional outbursts, while another chooses to switch roles and become the aggressor, despite hating their, seems almost a coin toss. The more I look at it however the more I'm convinced during early childhood a trauma bond forms - that bond is between perpetrator and victim and what sticks in the mind of the victim is very much what happened to them, and the electric emotions surrounding that. What sticks in there is clearly a footprint left behind from the perpetrator’s mindset.

Of course the child has only some DNA from their incest perpetrator. Some inborn traits and predispositions will be different. From the abuse point(s) forward there are unique life experiences and the resulting personality forms on top of all that. To get rid of the abuse footprint I'm convinced you need to know a great deal about the mindset of the perpetrator, and pretty much exactly how they were deviant. At that point teasing the deviance out is possible, but still tricky and protracted.

I have great respect for guys like RealityCheque who attack the problem from the brain itself. The physical brain is made up of lots of regions, with lots of interconnection. If you start with the coordinates of some physical spot in the brain they can tell you what happens if that area is damaged physically. With fMRI you also get very good, very specific physical information of what is activated. Its like taking a computer chip apart, putting it under the microscope, and finally getting down to what the circuits do. However we have to remember there is still human development, including how the brain physically develops over childhood, and how its programmed, and reprogrammed chemically and physically over time.

I'm finding when youth (and adults) experience strong, electric emotions they really stick. There is unquestioningly tons of activation around sex, around physical abuse, around fear, etc. Years later, from that early experience we can ask what causes some real heart pounding activation again that seems to have such a clear effect on actual behavior? Well let’s see, the fear of a rival taking my mate away, the thrill of exposing myself, and the ultimate fear I can create for myself - reenacting my childhood abuse through my partner.

wisdom wrote:Ahh were it that simple, we could rest at this point. However there is on more element here, the BPD (including HPD) disorder itself is replete with projective identification. Patient projects on to the doctor, evokes something in him. Doctor feels it and experiences it as if it were coming from inside him orginally. Patient then identifies with that which was evoked in him, thinking, "that’s in him" when it really, actually "originated with her."

In treating BPD the doctor is advised to examine how he feels himself, inside. (Searching for feelings evoked in him that initially he may feel are coming from him but on close examination are found to have merely been projected upon him (as part of the infamous projective identification aspect of BPD above). Now his self-examination work is tricky. The doctor says, "I'm not really supposed to be reacting emotionally here, I'm supposed to be the blank slate. Are these emotions I'm experiencing part of me (perhaps his own baggage) or are they really being projected upon me by my patient “ (who BTW, is a world class pro at doing that).

So is that why DrY used to harden up when he saw me?
He would smile to all the other patients, and was pleasent to them, etc... But when it came to me he was stern and even outright scoweled at me on occassion.
Was that him putting on an emotional shell so I couldn't project on him?

My KW shirnk does this too; but not as aggressively as DrY did.
DrS (in KW) will remain flat, firm and in control. He'll totally call me on my sh*t every time if I try to pull something over on him but I don't fight him on it. I listen to what he says and try to understand what he sees and how it relates (or doesn't) to what I said or did at the time.
But if he catches himself smiling he quickly cuts it off. I had him in tears once and I noticed he was a bit firmer (or perhaps detached) from that day on..
Would that have been counter transference or empathy?
I only ask because made Beth cry once (maybe twice- I don't recall off hand) and she said it was empathy.
So I'm not sure if I see where one is one thing over another in these kinds of things?

I do understand pulling someone into your emotions and evoking their own emotions to draw them closer to you, in to you- I call this pulling them into my world. So I can totally see that projective identification is something is we do and do well. We almost use people against themselves in that way.

wisdom wrote:I have great respect for guys like RealityCheque who attack the problem from the brain itself. The physical brain is made up of lots of regions, with lots of interconnection. If you start with the coordinates of some physical spot in the brain they can tell you what happens if that area is damaged physically. With fMRI you also get very good, very specific physical information of what is activated.

I know- the stuff he says sounds so cool and it makes sense that these things would ocurr next to trauma and enviromental exposures, ect... I really do wish I understood it better on my own but I can't seem to grasp it for some reason- I find that frustrating for me actually...


Thank you Wisdom for your time and explainations here.
My cup of joy runith over but the hour glass is empty I have to get to bed now. I'll come back to this post in the morning and add more on the trauma info. Thanks again