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HPD with incest

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Re: HPD with incest

Postby Cpt » Tue Sep 27, 2011 2:14 pm

AliceWonders wrote:Image but not playfully, there's less teeth and more lip. The teeth are in the snarl, but when she strikes it's like a pair of viscious duck lips :lol:


Deja Vu. My HPD is exactly the same, in fact she looks a lot like that girl and does the same duck face. Sometimes its playful but there is another mode to it like you described. There should be a "HPD and full lips" thread haha.
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Re: HPD with incest

Postby wisdom » Tue Sep 27, 2011 4:47 pm

Alice,

Great post. I feel you "emerging" even if you don't recognize it yourself.

Would consult Beth intensely on how best to work with mom (either close in or more distant). I think a female therapist to female patient would be very much in touch with those dynamics vs. vs relating to a male researcher - lol (I would be much more "out of touch" and clueless!).

For me, I love the "the data". So keep watching her face. Come to grips with her face state and your internal feelings; your face state and her internal feelings. How much fidelity in the inter person channel? And, what are the basic states?


AliceWonders wrote:Also, I'll be getting some information from family and children's services from the time surrounding the time I told, some of the psych evals from when I was 11 or 12, doctors reports, and psych evals from my one psychologists when I was 18 or so, plus stuff from Dr Y and Dr S to add to the case files for my claim, and if you'd like I could copy them and show them to you privately so you can see other back ground on my situation and mindset over the years. I'd not post that publicly; but i could scan and PDF the files for a down load if you like?


All that stuff sounds exceptionally good to get! Want you to consider calling up the prison, asking for the lead psychologist and having a frank discussion on what might be accessible, under what terms, specifically about your brother. Since nothing of a health care nature will be discussed without proper permissions my guess is that your conversation would be 100% benign. Tell the guy a 3 minute version of your story and how you are curing yourself and working with therapists. The reason you must have the info is to enable you to reconstruct yourself from the point of trauma, you have to have access to it to heal yourself. (Be convincing!) No health care worker will not feel drawn to try to help you help yourself.

Were you "masterful" during this conversation you would try to have the lead person guide you or help provide at least clues to all potential sources of information that would be helpful to you. Were you to get legal permission to access the info (or at least get permission for it to be shared with your therapists directly) you might need to specifically name each entity that might have records. You might, right now, contact any of those entities, with the same type of probe (in general) and use the same technique to expand out the entire web of possible sources. If you make a legal breakthrough with the Victim Services group to get access, the notice of that could then be sent to "everyone on the list".

I would not delegate this type of basic "spade work" to Barb because you can do it yourself (DIY) just as well, if not better than her. Since you will not be working directly with the info yet, there is no chance of triggering, etc. Make every "therapeutic hour" with Beth count! - deal with intense emotions in those hours. If its clerical, learning of a general nature, or just information gathering, that can all be DYI. Record your sessions if possible (an iPod or cell phone recorder can work) - if your therapist agrees. Keep recordings private but review. Post selective notes after due consideration, and you still want to share.

BTW if Beth asks let her know everyone on the forum is really applauding her work! No one here is ever recommending that her guidance not be given the utmost attention! No one here ever suggests diffusing or second guessing what she sees as important. Lots here benefit from what Beth advises you - its like she has additional healing power spread to a wider audience. Not as good as one-on-one therapy and never as a replacement if that is possible but for those without access to quality therapy (and researchers) its very beneficial to see the interactions! A nice "charity" benefit. :D

As to the above potential treasure trove of documents by all means scan everything and keep them ready in PDFs. I need you to keep them to yourself and Barb for now however. There are a few reasons:
  • If we get too "close" you are going to eventually blow up at me. Right now I actually lack the strength for that. Sorry, lots going on in my personal world at the moment.
  • "Nervous Nellies" here will have a fit we are going in that deep and be all over us with their "helpful advice" not to proceed. I'll take that as a too timid approach to a serious challenge that you need to really focus on and "strike through." We will get off track wasting time endlessly debating that. [IMHO if you have professional, on location therapists and know how to check yourself into the ER you have all the "safety equipment" readily available to you. Your next task is to actually suit up, put on the asbestos suit and don that O2 mask, psych yourself up and actually enter the burning building. You get in there and try to do the rescue. If it gets too hot you back out immediately. If you catch any smoke in there you get those professionals working you over ASAP. Admittedly, not fun. ]
  • I want to get into the compulsive oral sex topic in some depth. That is likely going to draw fire as most consider that just way too tabu and decent people should never talk frankly there. I'm going to do my best to make it non prurient. Still I'd anticipate that its going to be too frank a discussion for some, despite the fact that I'm going to put every possible warning and "notice of triggering" up front. I'll assume that readers can choose for themselves to proceed or abstain. And it will be way too long for some people's personal taste. Well, wtf, can't please everyone!

http://www.borderlinedisorders.com/ wrote:NOTE: The STIPO is currently undergoing a revision. We anticipate that a PDF of the revised STIPO will be available on this website in October 2011.


Very much looking forward to that! In reading your posts I thought the interaction you had with your x's to be extreemly positive! All the hitting, and "paint it black" followed by dissociating and amnesia. All that plays pretty well into good o'l Mr. Kernberg's theories, no? We were going down that "split off" / "fragments" analysis trail pretty hard with your STIPO before the "Nervous Nellies" here wanted all that brought to a halt immediately!

With access to your x's factual, no holes bared accounts of your actual behaviors, and your clearly much enhanced ability to process through much more of that stuff now due to vastly improved ego strength, you have a great opportunity to further identify fragments and better clarity how to reassemble integrated "grey" vs. all black or all white with the constant state flipping.

O.K. back to work for me.
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Re: HPD with incest

Postby AliceWonders » Wed Sep 28, 2011 1:29 am

Thanks Wisdom :D

I can't believe you actually 'WTF'd :lol:
It's nice to see you outside of the 'researcher mode' being a bit laid back and frank :wink:
Totally cool 8)

Beth knows that I'm here on the forum and that I share a lot of our sessions with others, all of my learning when I can, and that I use this place as a platform for the things we investigate deeply in therapy.

She was concerned for me being here when I first told her because I am so different and 'over the top' in so many areas. She thought that people wouldn't understand me and would condemn me for being the way I am, and she didn't want me to feel lost or like I didn't fit in with other disordered people because I am so outwardly aggressive and fragmented- I'm different...
I told her that had already happened and research and percervirance got me past it in time.

Sometimes she scolds me for all my research :lol:
But as I told her today, when she asked when it was I realized that much of my parents actions and raising me went wrong, I said- if I hadn't done the research into human development and how things are 'supposed to happen' I would have never figured out where it went wrong for me.
Because it was through researching what should happen I saw that my parents didn't do these things, they at times didn't do anything or did the complete oposit, and I recognized where and how I had become warped- especially where my mom is concerned because she's not as baligerant as my father in her abuses. I said until that point I had no idea that my upbringing was so backwards and wrong.
She asked how I didn't know.
I said because it was normal for me. It was normal to be neglected and pushed aside. It was normal for my dad to call me fat, stupid, lazy and make me feel worthless. It was normal for me to not be allowed to show any kind of emotion that could/would cause my parents grief or anger.
I said when my mom found my diary and slapped me in the face, called me disgusting, and asked me how I could do this? It was normal to me. My dad being drunk was normal. My brother running away and being beaten was normal. It was all normal, and because it was normal and happened all the time I didn't really know that it was supposed to be different.

Then she said, "Ahhh... But you did know it was supposed to be different because you don't do any of that stuff with your kids do you?" and she's right! I knew my kids deserved better than what I had and I made sure of it by always being there for them. Loving them and guiding them gently- NO MATTER WHAT! And that's so not my parents!!!
then I cried :lol:
She asked what i was feeling, and I told her it wasn't fair.
I don't know why my parents couldn't have broken the cycle for me, done what was right for me, and made sure I never had to go through this crap.
Aside from the abuse with my brother- they did a lot of damage to me and they didn't haveto do that.

We talked about my abuse and she asked me if I thought they felt anything about it and if I felt anything towards them about it. I told her it hurt them. It hurt me, and that they probably feel guilty because of what happened but they shouldn't- it wasn't their fault.
She probed that last one deeply with me "Wasn't their fault" to see if I was maybe hiding something or not addmitting blame; but I'm not hiding anything and I've NEVER blamed the for that- EVER!!!
They didn't know what he was gonna do to me. they had no idea he would have ever done anything like that to me. there were no signs of that kind of 'evil' in him forst of all, and secondly, the way he loved me was totally pure and good in him- there was no way to know that would happen. I don't blame them for THAT in the slightest.

We talked about the fact that my mom said if I have to face my brother to get the money for my therapy (do the court thing again) that it wasn't worth it.
Beth said, "facing him to get well isn't worth it now; but putting you on the stand at 12 to face him in criminal court was???"
"I KNOW!" I screamed :lol: "facing him to get the money to save my life isn't worth it; but facing him for her vendeta and punishing him was??? WTF is THAT!" :x my mom :roll: if it's not good for the goose than duck it :lol:

But yes, I'm angry at my parents for the court thing, and that's something I've never denied or hidden. I'm angry at my father for being so mean and crule to me (even to this day he can be cruel) and I'm angry at my mom for making suffer through it alone without supporting me.

I had a great purge today with Beth. We touched on the rage I feel towards my father and the fact I've been praying for him to pysically lay his hands of me in anger since my teens- so I can black out and lose it on him. Unleash the rath of ages :twisted: but the fact that when my mom hits me I'm so shocked and hurt by it- I'm literally stunned and speachless :shock: she hits me in the head (face slaps usually) and that's just obsurd. I'm fully aware that most degrading physical abuse a parent can give is a shot to the head, and it is. It just totally stuns you and you are in shock!

Sorry, I'm really ramblling here...

I have a head cold setting in and my brain is all fuzzy :?

i was gonna try and comment specifically on a few of the things you said; but I seem to have totally lost my train of thought at this point :lol:

I'll try and pick it up in the morning with a clear head.
Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth~Oscar Wilde

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Re: HPD with incest

Postby orion13213 » Wed Sep 28, 2011 5:06 am

Hey Alice

thanx for your insight re the fan club being a form of psuedo extended family. Makes a lot of sense with the particular lady I know from work; she apparently has different roles for different guys: dads, big brothers, little brothers, cousins, both close and distant. An interesting question...do the female members (the few?) ever fulfill psuedo Moms or sisters, etc., or, if no female fan club members available, can some male members actually fulfill the roles as Moms, sisters, etc.

Be well,
O
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Re: HPD with incest

Postby AliceWonders » Thu Sep 29, 2011 11:19 pm

orion8591 wrote:An interesting question...do the female members (the few?) ever fulfill psuedo Moms or sisters, etc., or, if no female fan club members available, can some male members actually fulfill the roles as Moms, sisters, etc.

That is interesting...

Sisters- yes, mothers NO!

I had one friend who was like a big sister to me (she's actually crazier than I am if you can believe it :lol: ) and I took a few younger girls under my wing at times to play the role of what a little sister or protge would be. Though it was very rare of me to do that.
Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth~Oscar Wilde

Ideologies separate us. Dreams and anguish bring us together~Eugene Ionesco

Once you chose hope anything is possible~ Christopher Reeves
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Re: HPD with incest

Postby AliceWonders » Fri Mar 29, 2024 7:25 pm

It's been years and a lot has changed; bit I'm back looking at some of the work I've done and see that there are some things I didn't get a chance to answer or finish years ago.

So for the benefit of others in their learning and healing I will share some of my discoveries now.

Wisdom suggested that I found out about my brother's psychology to better understand who he is and how who he was affected me...

It wouldn't be until 2017/2018 that I would have a chance to do this when I sought him out via Facebook because it was driving me crazy that he could be out there somewhere, alone in the world and I think that was right or fair to him because I still loved him very much despite everything that happened.

We stayed connected for nearly a year and this is what I learned.

He lies- all the time, for any reason and no reason at all. The lies don't even have to be in any way accurate or within the proximity of truth, nor do they need to be important or related to a subject of any importance. He just needs to know what he's talking about and be the one who knows it all.

Grandiose Sense of Self- he feels himself to be superior to most despite the fact he's anything but. He always has to be the one who knows what's going on, even if he has to make the whole thing up. He chooses partners who lack basic abilities and intelligence so that he can be the smart, powerful, domineering one and take advantage of their naivete.

Sence of Entitlement/Exploitative- he always feels he's due something, that people should give him something because of who he is, what he's been through, his natural abilities and resources. The crazy thing about that is that he had been locked up for 35 of his 47 years at that point so he has nothing, is nothing, or warrants nothing by talent or merit; but he doesn't see it. He just thinks everyone owes him something and he can justify whatever he wants within his mind and use his lies to try and influence others. He also exploits people (especially women) for anything he wants and needs. He'll have 2 or 3 of them going at once to get what he wants and he'll pick up and stay with the one who has the most monetary benefit to him when they all find out about each other.

The Women He Chooses- a lot of them are older, bigger women (just like mom) and all of them have some kind of learning disability and are in fact on disability for their mental conditions. Many of them are semi transient and he'll be with them while they have a place and leave them when they don't, while others lived under their parents care into adulthood and he takes advantage of them being alone after their parents death. A lot of them have kids. Sometimes younger, sometimes older- all of them are vulnerable in some way; whether it be due to physical age, emotional immaturity or more pronounced disabilities.

Something else I found interesting was that he was always obsessed with our mom. He wanted to know how she was, what she was doing, what she thought about us talking, if she would be willing to talk to him, and many of his partners looked like mom- bigger, older women and some even with the same hairstyle. It was very obvious he was "dating our mom" and kind of creepy.

He never talked about dad or cared to ask much about him. His focus was always on mom.

We did have a conversation wherein I tried to discuss what happened. He couldn't admit it. What he did admit to was laying naked beside me on one single occasion; but he said that's all he ever did. That's not true of course, and I wonder why he said that he did that (perhaps he was caught doing it once and I don't remember) but couldn't or wouldn't get into anything else... anyways I knew that was all I was gonna get on that score so I left it alone because I wanted to have in my life even if he was a lier- he was still my brother and the only one I had.

Something else he said though that was super important to me on a very deep level was that mom came to visit him in jail before the court case and begged him to admit he did what he did to SPARE ME from going on the stand. she told him that if he would admit it so I didn't have to testify that we would try to work as a family to get through things together; but if he made me go up there he was out of the family and she would never see him again.

This is HUGE!!! MY MOM TRIED TO SAVE ME FROM TESTIFYING!!! All these years I've hated her for making me go up there; but that wasn't the case. She tried to spare me from the humiliation and trauma that court would provide. That's why she never let him back in because he hurt me again (and very deeply- I can't express how traumatic the court prep and process actually was to me) and keeping him away from me and us was both punitive (against him) and protective (for me and us).

I really wish I had known that all those years. I really wish she would have told me she had made that visit and extended the offer to him that would have kept me off the stand. I had spent nearly 30 years hating her for something she didn't do (forcing me to testify) and she never did it. My perception and opinion of my mother took a major shift in that moment.

I did ask him about his psychology specifically we were talking about the different jails he was in, what jail life was like and who he saw/met while he was there. He was in with Paul Bernardo and said he was an arrogant prick- nothing to be afraid of, just a jerk. I asked him if he has any assessments done and if he knew what the results were. He told me he had dozens of them throughout the course of his life and that he was basically a psychopath. When I asked him what that mean he said that "everyone in jail becomes a psychopath because you have to if you're going to survive" he mentioned how if someone gets spanked and falls to the floor you can't react- you just have to step over them and keep walking or you could be next. I don't know if I buy that; but I kept pressing about historic diagnostic finds prior to institutions; but he had been in and out so much through the years that there really is no prior so what I found out was that he was diagnosed in in his youth with ODD (oppositional defiance disorder) and described as "antisocial" in his teens and early adulthood. Allegedly diagnosed AsPD and labeled a "psychopath" in his later years. All of that made sense to me because it was pretty much what I suspected based on his past known behaviors and criminal history.

I never asked if he had reoffended sexually against anyone- if he lied about me, why would he be honest about anyone else; but he did offer an odd bit of information which I found concerning... he said that he and one of his recent girlfriends had broken up because she had come home and found my brother watching porn in the living room with her child (I believe it was a boy) sitting beside him. As soon as it slipped he changed his story to the kid standing behind him while he was sitting on the couch, and he said that he didn't know the child was even there. I don't know what really happened; but the child isn't around him anymore thanks to the actions of the mother so that's a good thing at least.

Some other things of interest- I read in a news article that my brother said that the entire family was criminals to a judge one time and I questioned him on that because he's the only one who has a criminal record. He said he meant his street family- the family he created for himself because he didn't have us. I'm not sure that I buy that; but that's what he said.

Somethings else I found interesting is that one of our grandparents died while we're talking (the last of a couple) and he was more interested in inheritance then he was in their death. He always talked about how much money we had, the things the family had, the things we used to do and the way he felt entitled (though not in those words) to everything everyone had. That's why he used to break into boats, homes and garages of the family and our friends because he thought we were friends and family so it was OK for him to do with peoples stuff whatever he wanted. He pined for grandpas old Indian Chief motorcycle because it was worth $100k now. He was very much stuck on what things were worth and what he would get upon peoples deaths. It was gross the way he felt entitled to everything anyone had for no other reason than just having existed in their proximity for a period of time.

Every time he talked to me during those several months, he wanted or needed something. Very rarely was it to see what I was doing, or just to say hi- he always wanted or needed something when we talked... I did let that slide because I tend to be the same wherein I don't want to be a bother to people so I don't "bug them" unless I need something. (Perhaps thats a bit of residual children should be seen and not heard); but eventually when I reached out to him he stopped responding. I could see on Facebook messenger that my messages were being read; but he never responded to anything i said so I stopped sending them so often.

A few months would go by before our dad would receive a diagnosis for Parkinsons and I was distraught. I reached out to my brother hoping that whatever had put him off me when melt away when I really needed him in that moment. Nothing. I got nothing. I could see the message had been read so even if he wasn't able to respond himself, someone was reading what I was sending and could have responded to let me know what was happening with him, or pass the message to him to reply with his words to me from afar- i got nothing!

That was IT for me! I thought, after Everything you are and all that you have done, I turned the other cheek because I love you regardless of all of it. I gave you everything I could, every step of the way, and when I needed you- you gave me nothing!! We were torn apart as kids and we never wanted that to happen; but here you are in adulthood leaving me of your own free will. You are choosing this. These are your actions and you've decided to ditch me for no reason!!! Thats it I'm done.

I sent him a message reflecting the above and added in that because he chose to leave he needs to now stay gone. He's not welcome back. He's not getting anything from us ever again. I told him not to expect anything when mom and dad are gone either. He had his chance to get back in with the family with this most recent contact and he blew it.

I figured that would have gotten an immediate response; but it didn't. It was read shortly after and responded to months later when he said he had been away for treatment at a loge somewhere (he likes to claim indigenous identity to get stuff) and that if I chose to leave because he was taking care of himself that was fine. He used to everyone leaving him anyways.

That was over 5 years ago, and I've still never responded to his message nor shall I ever.

I've already gotten a very real feel for who he is and what he wants, and it's not love or a real relationship with anyone- its just what he can get from someone when he wants or needs something while giving anything from the bare minimum to absolutely nothing in return.

So my brother never admitted what he did; but I did get some important stuff from him during those few months, and I have no regrets about reaching out and learning about who he is. I have no regrets about loving him, or giving him another chance to properly love me in turn.

He's not capable of love I asked him about that specifically when we discussing his psychopathy. I asked him if he was able to love and he told me "yes; but not like normal people" he said when everything comes and goes and no one ever lasts, how is he supposed have love or trust in it? He said the only person he ever really loved was me- that's a lie though because the only person he's EVER loved is in fact HIMSELF!

re: Jealousy- I never got back to this because life happened and I had to leave the forum...

My brother was jealous of me. He was adopted first at the age of 6 and then I came into the picture a few months later. A new baby who needed all the time attention when a newly adopted child was adjusting to a new home and needed just as much if not more than the baby demanded just by being a baby.

My father did want a son. He used to take my brother to job sites and fishing when he wasn't locked up, and it took my dad a long time to realize that I could do the work of a man without having a penis. My dad would get weepy with my new partners while giving them tools, booze or money as gifts for Christmas. My current husband and him are very close (both emotionally and in age) so he got his contractor son in law and he got a pseudo son in my son as he grew older and worked on projects with my dad. What's funny about my dad working with my son is that I'd often have to be there to help them communicate because my son didn't understand what he was saying and my dad wasn't communicating in a way my boy could understand him and they would both get frustrated with each other; but after a few projects the learned to understand each other and communicate better so I didn't have to be there for everything all the time.

I suppose I was jealous that my dad couldn't see me as an equal or adequate substitute for my brother. I could do all the things that boys can do, and I wanted to. I wanted a relationship with my dad and in order to have one I'd have to spend time with him and that meant doing "guy stuff" because that's what he did as a contractor and as a man.

I probably was jealous of my brother for actually being able to do stuff with my dad and my dad be excited about spending time with his boy, rather than just settling for having a girl to help with the little stuff here and there. I dunno...

My relationship with both of my parents has greatly improved over the years though. My dad no longer drinks and is actually sweet and loving most of the time now. My mom sees the value in me as a person and as her daughter, and I see the same in her.

Life has been better for a long time, and I owe much of that to what I learned, discovered and worked through on this forum and in therapy.

Thanks everyone, and I hope what I've added here goes on to help someone else in their journey as well ❤

Addendum re My Dad and Me:

My dad stopped taking me out with him when I got to be certain age because he felt that people though we were couple and he felt like they thought he was a dirty old man for being with me. That was hard and it stifled completely our being out and about together ever after.

re My Son and Me:

My son and I went through this same thing when he was in his teens.

Everyone thought we were a couple and someone even once asked us "how many kids we had" to which my son groaned and I laughed.

We were used to it at that point (people had been wrongfully assuming for about 2 or 3 years by then); but we never let it stop us from doing things together and we still laugh about it now that he's 23.

Please if you're reading this and you have older children who people suppose are your romantic partner- Don't Stop Spending Time with Your Child! they are still your kid and they still need that time with you. Don't let other peoples looks and suppositions inhibit a healthy relationship with your child. Kids get older; but they are still your kids and remain children to you no matter how old they get.
Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth~Oscar Wilde

Ideologies separate us. Dreams and anguish bring us together~Eugene Ionesco

Once you chose hope anything is possible~ Christopher Reeves
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Re: HPD with incest

Postby lilyfairy » Sun Apr 14, 2024 11:34 am

Hi Alice

It's always nice when old users of the forum come back to tell us how things have changed for them- thankyou for coming back and sharing.

I'm really glad you were able to get some answers from your brother. Even though reconnecting might not have given you what you'd hoped for, it sounds as though it has given you some answers, some closure, and a plan forward- protecting yourself, which is maybe the best that any of us with difficult family situations can hope for.

Congratulations on all the hard work you've done to make progress and change your own life for the better. Thanks again for sharing.

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