Are these traits similar to those with HPD?

There is someone to whom I am related and I'm curious as to whether or not she sounds as though she has symptoms similar to those of HPD. I'm not looking for a diagnosis. I'm simply looking for some sort of insight from those who are familiar with HPD and are unbiased. I sincerely apologize for the length of this post and appreciate anyone who is willing to read it all and respond.

She is a very loud person. She talks as loudly as possible, interrupts, and is incredibly aggressive. She loves to be the center of attention and easily gets jealous. Since I came into the picture, she has clearly had a jealousy problem with me as she makes passive-aggressive remarks about me (for example, she makes comments about my being thin, having large breasts, loving being a mom, etc.). I think she also was jealous that my husband (her brother-in-law) picked me and didn't hang onto her. He never had any feelings for her other than her being the wife of his brother, but she seems to have a "thing" for him and felt as though he was in love with her. She told me once that I scored the better brother, which I found to be a disgusting thing to say and incredibly disrespectful to her husband.

She can be very dramatic. She appears to be quite vivacious, friendly, outgoing, energetic, etc. She loves to meet new people and make new friends. If she meets your friend, she'll immediately try to take them on as hers and become closer to them than you are. She's not necessarily successful at this, at least in my case, as my friends are pretty good judges of character and they don't really like her. But, she tends to think that everyone likes her best and will always side with her. She's actually gone so far as to do this with my mom and my husband. When someone doesn't side with her, she acts like a victim and will get very angry at them. This has happened to me.

She wasn't able to become pregnant naturally, so her parents paid for her to undergo 4 different sessions of IVF over a period of 4 years to get pregnant. At my bridal shower she made a big show about awaiting a phone call to find out if her IVF took this time. It did, but she didn't receive the phone call at my shower. She says things like "I'm not much of a crier. I don't get all sensitive and warm-hearted." She said something to this effect at our wedding when talking about our exchange of personal vows. She said it was the first time she got emotional over something like that. When she had her babies (she had twins) she supposedly got PPD. I became pregnant about a month after her babies were born and I spent every free moment during my pregnancy at her home helping her with the kids (actually, most times I would come over to spend time with her and the kids and help out and she would ask if she could run to the store quickly and not show back up for hours). I became very close to her and was a sounding wall for her when she had problems. I have suffered from major depressive disorder, been suicidal since I was a child and have attempted suicide in the past. I have a very intimate understanding of depression and I didn't see any of this in her. She was always all excited to get out of the house, go out with friends, go to lunch or dinner with friends, get attention from men who weren't her husband. I didn't find that to be consistent with depression and never ever even had a hint of her feeling desperate like you do when you suffer from depression. She clearly was upset about the lack of attention she received when her children were born. People came over to see the twins - not her (which is typical of any new mother/baby situation). She said things to me like "watch out for when your baby is born. It's not all about you anymore and it's terrible." I would respond with "it's never been about me before, so it's not going to change anything for me in that respect." She would go on and on about how I had no idea and that she hates that it's not all about her anymore. I found that weird and selfish. When she would get tired or frustrated, she would make a big deal of it in front of everyone. When she's around her parents, she always starts arguments with her mom and doesn't seem to care that it's in front of our mutual parents-in-law and grandmother-in-law. It seems as though she enjoys any attention, negative or otherwise. She really seems to enjoy trying to pit her father against her mother with her in the middle.

She posts only negative things about her children on Facebook and when you ask her how the twins are doing, she'll tell you they're terrible, awful, etc. As a mother of a child close in age to hers, I can't understand this behavior. Ever since the kids were born, she seems to be jealous of them and the attention they receive. She doesn't like to be burdened with them, only seems to enjoy buying them things and having their pictures taken, etc. She's very greedy and feels that everyone owes her something. She openly keeps track of anything we or our son receive from our in-laws and demands to receive the same exact thing, regardless of the fact that there's never a time we receive something and she doesn't. She has literally gotten up in my face and yelled at me about it. She would also tell me stories about awful things that our in-laws have said to her and how they constantly judge her. It made me sympathize with her, because I felt it wasn't right what they were doing. Of course, now that I've seen all sides of her I highly doubt anything she told me was truth. She also seemed to begrudge me things like nursing my son, quitting my job to stay at home, thoroughly enjoying motherhood, and not getting PPD (which was something we were all concerned about since I've suffered from major depressive disorder already). She's made comments and I know her mother has, which doesn't help the situation at all. She and her mom are very much alike and they seem to really hate each other. Whenever they've been invited to our home, they either bail out at the last minute (like the one time I hosted Christmas) or they complain that the house isn't up to snuff for her and they leave quickly.

She wrote me a letter in a card once and told me about how I was the sister she'd always wanted her own sister to be. That she appreciated all that I had been doing for her and listening to her, etc. The whole time I was close with her, she bad-mouthed her sister. I mean, terribly. I thought her sister was the worst person on the planet from what I had been told. Then, once my son was born and I stopped coming to her home and helping her all the time because my son was now my first priority, she switched. She started to talk about me behind my back, being passive-aggressive with me, and switched over to being super-close with her sister, posting things on her Facebook like "you're the best sister ever!" I found that so hypocritical and weird and felt sorry for her sister.

The last time I was able to be around her on a friendly level, she told me that she was thinking about her ex-fiancee who always worshipped the ground she walked on and who would leave his wife for her if she so much as asked him to. She'd been chatting with him on Yahoo and email. She said that her husband is a "great dad and all, but..." And then she left me with all three of the babies to open a secret bank account so her husband couldn't get his hands on the money. She would tell me stories about how he would spend up all their money, but in the same breath brag about going out to fancy lunches, getting mani/pedis, getting massages, etc. It was the same day she got in my face about something our in-laws bought for our son. Keep in mind, my husband and I have half the income they have, which makes more sense why our in-laws would help us out with something regarding the baby. But, they never helped us out more than they helped them.

Since all the children have been born, her best friend got a divorce and started to party and become promiscuous again. Both my sister-in-law and her best friend have told me over and over again that my SIL was very promiscuous in high school and has cheated on every single guy she's dated. She seems proud of it. Anyway, she started hanging out with her friend more and more while she was single, going out to clubs and bars, getting wasted, drinking heavily at home, etc. Then, suddenly, she decided she wanted a separation from her husband. She rented an apartment and they did some sort of "controlled separation". Whenever she did have the children, she would take them out and do things instead of keeping them at home. She seems completely incapable of tending to her children in a normal environment instead of taking them to do "fun things" and hang out with other moms and children. During this separation, she was out partying with her single friends, going to clubs and bars, getting drunk, talking about hot guys. She started dressing in very tight clothes and trying really hard to be sexy. They both saw a counselor and the counselor told her husband that he didn't need counseling - that his wife was the only one with a problem. I found that to be incredibly irresponsible, since they were also there for marriage counseling. Apparently, this counselor has diagnosed her with Bipolar Disorder, which is something I, myself, was diagnosed with many years ago and have recently been told that was a misdiagnosis - I actually have OCD (which makes much more sense). While I do have major mood swings from one end to the other, I believe they're anxiety-related. Having been diagnosed with BP, I have researched it to no end. It's one of the ways I obsess. From what I know, the main thing with BP is that there are moods and behaviors that are different from the person's normal behavior and mood. That is not like her. She is always like how I've described. That IS her. It's not out-of-character at all. This new diagnosis has been shared with our in-laws and now they think we should all feel sorry for her. They don't know half of what I deal with or even half of what she's done to us (I didn't tell all she's done here...too much to write). It's like once she got all she could out of my husband and I, she ditched us and moved on to others who would be her next set of suckers.

I don't believe she is BP. I never see depressive states and her personality is never different. Yes, she can be different around different groups of people. She is a butt-kisser and will do whatever she has to to be liked, but she tends to reveal her real self to us. I think she makes up a lot of stuff and I find her to be incredibly manipulative. I definitely think there is something wrong with her, but I just can't accept that it's BP. And if her counselor was worth the salt, she wouldn't have told her husband to stop coming to couple's therapy. I wish she'd come see my counselor, because I know he can sniff out BS a mile away and will call you on it. Supposedly they've been trying different types of medication on her, but nothing is working thus far.

I'm so frustrated, because I feel steam-rolled and my in-laws feel we should all feel sorry for her and just ignore her poor treatment of everyone around her just because she supposedly has BP. I've been through so much in my life and I finally have a solid diagnosis and will begin medication this week, but I don't feel the need to impose my problems onto other people. I receive no sympathy for what I go through nor do I receive any respect for the fact that I am a really great wife and mother (the only ways I feel that I might be a decent person), because this woman is always doing her best to overshadow me. It's frustrating.

Is she exhibiting traits that you all find familiar to HPD? Can a person with HPD attempt to take on traits of another disorder to get the diagnosis she desires? Perhaps I'm just upset because she's willing to air out her dirty laundry to everyone to garner sympathy and I secretly would like some sympathy for the first time in my life, but am unwilling to share my story with everyone. It's a story that brings me a lot of shame, so only my husband and counselor know. Or, perhaps she really is BP. I just don't see how it can be used as an excuse to treat people so horribly.

From what I can gather, only a medical psychiatrist who is also a trained doctor can diagnose something like bipolar disorder. It surprises me that a counsellor could do this. Having said that, there are different types of bipolar disorder - type 1 in which the person will display severe debilitating depression alternating with severe manic states, often with hallucinations and psychosis (being out of touch with reality), extreme delusions of grandeur and behaviour that would appear to be bizarre even to a lay person. Type 2 in which a person would display milder depression alternating with less severe manic phases which are called hypomania. In hypomania there are no delusions or hallucinations and the person would not necessarily appear to be ill to the casual observer. He/she would simply be seen to be etremely gregarious and outgoing. He/she might act in ways that are out of charecter, for instance by going on large spending sprees, sleeping with strangers and being narcissistic. His or her ability to make rational choices would be compromised. Then there is cyclothmia which is the mildest form of all, in which the person would have mild depression alternating between mild elation and this might pass unnoticed and not be diagnosed at all as people may think that this is simply the person's usual personality. There can be many similarities between bipolar disorder and borderline personality disorder, which in turn is very similar to HPD. I have been diagnosed with both cyclothmia and HPD and it is hard to tell where one disorder begins and the other one ends.

It is possible that she may have been misdiagnosed, or it could be possible that she may have one of the milder types of bipolar disorder and HPD. Only a psychiatrist could make a positive diagnosis, and this would usually be done in the form of a formal mental state examination which may take the form of a detailed questionnairre and interview and which could take up to 3 hours. A diagnosis could not be made from a counselling session alone.

It certainly sounds as if her behaviour, whether HPD or not, is selfish in the extreme and that she is unwilling to take responsibility for it or face up to the consequences of her actions. In the meantime, her behaviour is proving toxic for you and unhealthy and could be detrimental to your own mental and emotional well being. As you have to have contact with her at certain times because she is a member of your family, you need to provide boundaries to protect yourself. If it is not possible to sever all contact with her, you need to work on strategies that will prevent her from having too much of a bad effect upon you - ie by doing something pleasurable immediately after having contact with her, by not raising to her bait, by making a conscious effort to not allow her remarks and actions to hurt you and by having the least possible amount of contact with you that you can manage. I would also avoid introducing her to anyone in your circle of friends if this can be helped as people like her have a habit of infiltrating themselves into your life and social circle with no boundaries, and once there, they can do a tremendous amount of harm.

Whether she is disordered or not, unless she takes FULL responsibility for her behaviour and makes a conscious effort to gain some kind of self awareness, she will not change. In any case, I believe that therapy is the only answer for her, but she has to have motivation to change and enter therapy for the right reasons and not to fulfil something in her own agenda. Sadly, many people can only get in the right place to benefit from therapy when something drastic happens in their lives and they hit rock bottom. This happened to me and I am glad it did, for entering therapy has been my saving grace.

Hi caterpillar,

Masquerade has written a comprehensive, excellent post and I'm tempted to ditto all of it.

All I have to add is this. You said in your story: It's like once she got all she could out of my husband and I, she ditched us and moved on to others who would be her next set of suckers.

I think this is a blessing to you. You and your family are ditched. Hooray! Let it be.
Keep your distance (as much as you can since you/she are family).
Take the role of an observer, not an engager.
Don't get caught up in her theatrics or her drama - just stand back and be as much of an impartial observer as you can be.

Taking that stance will help you to:

not obsess about her and her doings.
not be as hurt that she's the focal point of family attention
not waste time and energy that could better be spent on your own wonderful family and yourself

Whether she's HPD or BP or whatever, it doesn't much matter at this point because it won't change her behavior (unless she gets medication and it does address a real chemical imbalance in her).
And, regardless, you can't do anything about it. It's maddening, I agree. But not much you can do.

Much better to focus yourself on what you can effect, which is you and your family.

LifeSong wrote:
(unless she gets medication and it does address a real chemical imbalance in her).

Catapilliar, just wanted to correct the premise that medication will help these disorders. I dealt with this and talked a lot about meds with my counselors. One counselor with my ex, and one with myself after we split. They both have the same opinion and it goes along with my experiences and what I've read.

I will tell you a little of what I learned, and what the common medication options are. They have a very low success rate. Mainly they give Efflexor for it, but they are trying off label Baclofen, Lyrica, Cymbalta, and Xanax along with the other benzo's.

They are using the baclofen, lyrica to hit the gaba b receptors, and cymbata for an SSRI. But these are generally off label unlike Efflexor and the benzos. Oh yea, they sometimes try Tramadol too, even though it is used as a painkiller, because it is of similar chemical stucture to Efflexor (SNRI). So they have a lot of meds they are trying besides the paxil, prozac and other stuff. None of them work.

They have a lot of studies that prove these things get worse. I can pm you links if you'd like. My ex had Efflexor and Xanax, but she was on a lot of others too. That got me researching it. Point is medication will have like zero impact maybe 8 times out of ten in your relationship with them. Ask any non here who had an ex with medication.

Not saying it won't help the disordered with panic and anxiety. I'm referring to how they treat you and behave in a relationship.

Even if the chemical imbalance issues are addressed (if you believe a pd is related to chemical imbalances), the pd abandonment issues and emotional instability is not helped. The chemical imbalance thing is way outdated (remember what happened with the Lithium medication ).

Just be careful about what you hear so you don't waste your time. Do what some of the other posters said and move on with your life and leave the HPD behind.

My mother is also on like 225 g of Efflexor for this pd crap, and it made her worse. Now it is her excuse for abusing the whole family. After all she was drugged and is having a hard time with the meds . A year later and the same thing. My aunt calls it: The Efflexor Excuse.

TadLock wrote:

LifeSong wrote:(unless she gets medication and it does address a real chemical imbalance in her).

Catapilliar, just wanted to correct the premise that medication will help these disorders. I dealt with this and talked a lot about meds with my counselors. One counselor with my ex, and one with myself after we split. They both have the same opinion and it goes along with my experiences and what I've read...

You misunderstood what I wrote, Tadlock.
You interpreted that I was saying that medication will address a personality disorder; I didn't say that and I don't believe that.
But the person in question in the OP is not diagnosed. So we don't know what might be up with her. My entire statement was: "Whether she's HPD or BP or whatever, it doesn't much matter at this point because it won't change her behavior (unless she gets medication and it does address a real chemical imbalance in her).And, regardless, you can't do anything about it. It's maddening, I agree. But not much you can do."
That means that regardless, there is nothing that the OP can do to change her behavior (if it's a PD, AND it might be a chemical imbalance treatable by drugs but that is unknown to the OP).
No need to correct a premise that wasn't even made, Tadlock.

TadLock wrote:


Even if the chemical imbalance issues are addressed (if you believe a pd is related to chemical imbalances), the pd abandonment issues and emotional instability is not helped. The chemical imbalance thing is way outdated (remember what happened with the Lithium medication ).

The Columbine massacre being the primate example. They were on Paxil and the medication many believed contributed to the shooters behavior so that their angry and suicidal emotions were magnified. Medication is totally overrated.

I was a Imipramine guinea pig for almost a year .

My limited understanding is the following:

Bi-Polar disorder mood swings are due to a brain chemistry disorder, and mood swings have a relatively long duration (googling indicates the median is 13 weeks, with a day being on the short side). These moods are relatively independent of the situation at hand.

Then there is someone like my BPD mother who could go through huge swings in her mood multiple times a day due to black and white thinking, and lack of emotional control. That is to say she saw things in extreme (all or nothing) terms, and her moods were triggered by the situation.

Because the underlying cause is completely different, medications that are of benefit to those with a brain chemistry disorder are likely to make someone with a personality disorder worse. But it's more complex than that as a person could have both, or they could have a personality disorder plus a brain chemistry issue that results in general depression, anxiety, etc.

Actually it's really not that complex, but a one size fits all solution for all people is flawed simplistic (black or white) thinking because not everyone has the same exact problem, even if some of the symptoms have some similarities.

Yes, that's it, exactly.
The difficulty is when we are talking about someone else (not ourselves) and assuming things about the other. We assume they may have a PD, but it may be that they have a mood disorder.
Only a clinical assessment can help to pinpoint what the causation of behavior is (and even that is 'guess' sometimes).
Thanks for the detail behind what I was saying, xdude.
Lifesong

xdude wrote:My limited understanding is the following:

Bi-Polar disorder mood swings are due to a brain chemistry disorder, and mood swings have a relatively long duration (googling indicates the median is 13 weeks, with a day being on the short side). These moods are relatively independent of the situation at hand.

Then there is someone like my BPD mother who could go through huge swings in her mood multiple times a day due to black and white thinking, and lack of emotional control. That is to say she saw things in extreme (all or nothing) terms, and her moods were triggered by the situation.

Because the underlying cause is completely different, medications that are of benefit to those with a brain chemistry disorder are likely to make someone with a personality disorder worse. But it's more complex than that as a person could have both, or they could have a personality disorder plus a brain chemistry issue that results in general depression, anxiety, etc.

Actually it's really not that complex, but a one size fits all solution for all people is flawed simplistic (black or white) thinking because not everyone has the same exact problem, even if some of the symptoms have some similarities.

I think masquerade touches on a very important point - it's crucial to go to an actual clinical psychologist, instead of just a 'counselor' who might have no qualifications past being a friendly person and a good listener.

As I understand it, bipolar disorder and cluster-B personality disorders don't belong in the same discussion. Bipolar disorder on its own is fairly well understood, is known to be a chemical problem with the brain's regulatory systems, and can be treated to some extent with medication. Personality disorders have many causes but are defined by maladaptive coping mechanisms which lead the person to 'act crazy' or otherwise behave in ways that hurt themselves or others. Personality disorders cannot, as far as I know, be treated effectively with drugs (in the specific case of BPD, there is some evidence for an underlying chemical imbalance, although it's not yet known whether that is cause or effect).

Back to thecaterpillar's original post - wow. She sounds like a pain in the ass. Obviously it's not possible to diagnose someone from a second-hand account but guessing from what's been said, she sounds narcissistic with a touch of histrionic. It sounds like it's mostly about control and manipulation and power plays. My advice? Keep contact with her to a minimum and just focus on the people in your life who aren't crazy and abusive.

Tattered Knight made and excellent post. There are a couple of points I would like to touch upon and elaborate upon from his post, in a view to clear up any misconceptions regarding counsellors, psychotherapists and psychologists for the benefit of those who may be seeking treatment or diagnosis. In my country, UK, a counsellor's training takes five years and over and it is the equivalent of a difficult university degree, for not only do they undertake many hours of academic theory, studying all the psychological theories, but they also undergo extensive and indepth counselling themselves and have to prove themselves to be emotionally and psychologically self aware before they are deemed fit to practice. I asked my counsellor this and also found this out when I made enquiries about actually eventually undergoing training myself when I am more self aware and recovered. They also have to complete a great deal many hours in a placement before they are qualified. So their qualifications go beyond being a nice person and a good listener. An experienced counsellor will have more than a passing knowledge about the personality disorders and some of them may have had specialised experience in counselling the personality disordered and/or certain forms of mental illness. The credible counsellors in the UK will work under the guidelines and auspices of the BACP, British Association for Counsellors and Psychotherapists, or similar recognised organisations, and be full members of them. So please don't be put off counselling! What they are NOT qualified to do, however, is to diagnose psychiatric conditions. They may recognise something which is out of their areas of expertise and refer the client on. It sounds as if the counsellor in question that was mentioned in the original post either had dubious qualifications or that the woman in question was not telling the entire truth about the diagnosis. There is nothing to stop unqualified people in the UK from setting up their own practices, only recommended guidelines. Most credible counsellors in the UK who work for the NHS or public agencies or for themselves have qualifications or degrees recognised by the BACP.

A psychotherapist specialises in more in depth therapeutic counselling and in the UK is usually a member of the BACP or similar organisation. They are also not allowed to diagnose, but may be specialists in the areas of mental illness or personality disorders.

A psychologist's role can be varied, depending on the context and a clinical psychologist may have an even more extensive knowledge of the personality disorders. They will usually have a university degree and spent many years in training. I do not know whether or not they may make a psychiatric diagnosis.

A psychiatrist is a medically qualified doctor who has taken further training in the diagnosis of and treatment of many forms of mental illness. They will view the illness from a medical perspective and refer the patient on for the talking types of therapy. Only a psychiatrist can make a formal diagnosis of a psychiatric illness.

I have made this post to clarify the confusion that many people have when seeking treatment, and in the hope that it will not deter people from seeking help from counselling. Had it not been for my counsellor, then I would not be where I am today.

Anyway, I don't want to hi jack the thread, so carry on posting.