Manipulation of the Mind 101

by **mr.johnnymac** » Sun Apr 10, 2011 1:57 am

@OK, who wrote:

okherewego212 wrote:Munipultion certianly is a valuable tool of a cluster "B". Lot of tracks to cover, and they get pretty good at it. Lifetime of practice and learning....Good to be self aware of it though, as it cetianly takes it toll on the person being munipulated and the munipulator too.

And then said,

okherewego212 wrote:Sorry Alice and yes I did change it, as in hindsite. I tamed it down, but basically said the same thing. In hindsight, I realized you might take it the wrong way and blow it way out of proportion. I see you have done that and doesn't suprise me. Hopefully you get over it soon, and not hang onto it, like usual. Again, opoligize.

It's good to know, OK, that you have the mental maturity to 'tame down' a post that you later decided may have been offensive to the OP. Adults know how to apologize, and apologizing involves in part being willing to take back what you said, to re-frame things, etc.

Since when is it wrong to change your mind about something you said?

Plus, it is easier to post your responses first (for some) and see your mistakes in grammar or the way you worded things whilst the whole screen is up-as opposed to the smaller text box we type our responses into.
Lol, I don't know if you remember the time when Miss Covert NPD (not a reference to the Original Poster) criticized me for editing a post I made, telling me she was concerned about me because I felt the need to reword things. Thing is, if Miss Covert NPD had noticed any grammar mistakes, then she would have criticized them too :lol:

.

Ah...the STATUE LANGUAGE of the cluster b...with them it is always...

"That's not what you said!"

I hate it when they make Statues out of your words, as if your words were chiseled in stone forever-to the point where you were locked in for the rest of your life to something you said. It is all part of the walking on eggshells...choose your words extra carefully or anything you say can and will be used against you in a court of law.

Funny though, as you caught yourself, rephrased it better...and it was still thrown in your face (called gravedigging).

Anyway, your first post (the W.O.W. post), was really not uncalled for. This thread was posted and you commented on it. This is what happens when people post things in public places (as one poster said), and if threads are posted in public places they can be commented on in public places-no need for PM's to say you don't like something.

If their was, the poster who didn't like what you said could have PMed you-instead of objecting to your entitled opinion and rebuking you 'publicly'.

A non should be treated equal here...the rules don't say, "Nons need to sit in the back of the bus".

Anyway, on a different note...this thread is summed up by part of its title, "101" (which means basic). Besides the majority of the first post being a copy and pasted song (detracting from it being orignianl content)...the rest of it may as well been copy and pasted from this book:

http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_noss? ... on&x=0&y=0

There is a female version of it that says the exact same stuff...just like the version does above.

At the end of the post, the OP said the best she had to say was this:

My best advice to those trying to avoid being a victim of mind fukc would be if it seems too good to be true- it more than likely is.

How many times have you heard, "If something is too good to be true, it usually is..." This, along with the stuff about the flawed diamonds...it is all written verbatim elsewhere (as many of us have heard it again and again).

Nothing is original in this first post except the way the information was all paraphrased and strung together.

Now, although plagiarism is just another common cluster b trait, the main reason for bringing this up is not to point out that the first post of this thread was full of it, because it is of value to add here that plagiarism (which is a variation of the 'copycat'), is a major 101 way that cluster b's manipulate the minds of others.

The copy and pasted song, the literature from The Art Of Seduction, and the same philosophy written by life strategist Shari Schreiber (who specifically writes about how cluster b women seduce and mind fu*k men) are scattered through the entire original post, and their work/thoughts/writings are anchored/connected to the one doing the copying/plagiarism.

Another meaning of plagiarism is 'close imitation'.

Even in the original post we see statements like:

She will be gauging your degree of expression and gratitude for her excellent treatment of you. If you give the reaction or material things (as I used to want) that she longs for, she will continue to feed into that childish ego, and give you everything your heart desires because she can! You’ve been read, gauged, tested, and entranced over a few drinks, and it’s all fun and games until someone breaks her heart.

Verbal probing into conversation (seemingly harmless though it is) she’ll begin to find out all about you. Where you’re from, single/married, why you’re single/married, about your job, social activities, friends, interests, children, volunteer work, education- anything! All of these things say something about you as a person, your values, your goals, your strengths, your weaknesses, and what you prize and pride most in life. That’s where she will begin to focus, building a common bond between the 2 of you. Something you share and can find similarities in, and she will use that to get closer to you and gain your trust.

All of these statements are some of the building blocks of 'matching and mirroring', and matching and mirroring a person is a type of plagiarism. You are learning a person's personal value system and mirroring it back to them (they aren't being original, but are copying the personal values of someone else-and taking credit for it in the process).

They are plagiarizing you.

There is much further detail to this (even psychologist have written of the connection of the cluster b to plagiarism), and one of my almost ex BPD's did this to a perfect science. She found out the kind of work I did, researched it, and then (in our conversations) copy and pasted a lot of what she learned to me-making me think we were so connected and right for each other.

I thought she was so smart and right for me.
A few months later I discovered that she didn't come up with what she mirrored to me, rather, she did research on what my work/education revolved around and fed it back to me through a Feedback loop.

In social gatherings, public speeches, on Facebook, and even in counseling sessions, the cluster b will plagiarize the words of other people. This connects them to what you want to hear or with what makes them sound as wise/talented/insightful as the people who actually produced the information in the first place.

In fact, speaking of plagiarism as it pertains to the manipulation of the mind 101...I recent thread was just started here that said something like:

"Are HPD's Copycats?"

histrionic-personality/topic61753.html

And this thread, beginning with the copy and pasting of the Madonna song, is a good answer/starting point to answer that question.

WOW! Was it that my own personal description of how we manipulate and the things we see that others don't was so accurate that you needed to check it's validity by going on a book quest? Or was this a book you were already studying along with the past studies you've done in manipulative stratagies?

I'm not a plagerist, and I always give credit were credit is due in any quotation or research source I've ever used to prove or disprove something- so sorry... I didn't copy and paste anything, nore have I read a book on how to do this ever in my life. If it beares resemblance to any research or book you can find, that only adds to the credit of it being in fact accurate, which I wasn't sure if held truth accross the boards, hence why I said this is how I do it.

So thank you for going out of your way to prove that this is indeed an acurate account for me, it was very thoughtful for you to do all that extrra work to add to my credit the validity of this discription. :mrgreen:

mr.johnnymac wrote:@OK, who wrote:

okherewego212 wrote:Munipultion certianly is a valuable tool of a cluster "B". Lot of tracks to cover, and they get pretty good at it. Lifetime of practice and learning....Good to be self aware of it though, as it cetianly takes it toll on the person being munipulated and the munipulator too.

And then said,

okherewego212 wrote:Sorry Alice and yes I did change it, as in hindsite. I tamed it down, but basically said the same thing. In hindsight, I realized you might take it the wrong way and blow it way out of proportion. I see you have done that and doesn't suprise me. Hopefully you get over it soon, and not hang onto it, like usual. Again, opoligize.

It's good to know, OK, that you have the mental maturity to 'tame down' a post that you later decided may have been offensive to the OP. Adults know how to apologize, and apologizing involves in part being willing to take back what you said, to re-frame things, etc.

Since when is it wrong to change your mind about something you said?

Plus, it is easier to post your responses first (for some) and see your mistakes in grammar or the way you worded things whilst the whole screen is up-as opposed to the smaller text box we type our responses into.
Lol, I don't know if you remember the time when Miss Covert NPD (not a reference to the Original Poster) criticized me for editing a post I made, telling me she was concerned about me because I felt the need to reword things. Thing is, if Miss Covert NPD had noticed any grammar mistakes, then she would have criticized them too .

Ah...the STATUE LANGUAGE of the cluster b...with them it is always...

"That's not what you said!"

I hate it when they make Statues out of your words, as if your words were chiseled in stone forever-to the point where you were locked in for the rest of your life to something you said. It is all part of the walking on eggshells...choose your words extra carefully or anything you say can and will be used against you in a court of law.

Funny though, as you caught yourself, rephrased it better...and it was still thrown in your face (called gravedigging).

Anyway, your first post (the W.O.W. post), was really not uncalled for. This thread was posted and you commented on it. This is what happens when people post things in public places (as one poster said), and if threads are posted in public places they can be commented on in public places-no need for PM's to say you don't like something.

If their was, the poster who didn't like what you said could have PMed you-instead of objecting to your entitled opinion and rebuking you 'publicly'.

A non should be treated equal here...the rules don't say, "Nons need to sit in the back of the bus".

Anyway, on a different note...this thread is summed up by part of its title, "101" (which means basic). Besides the majority of the first post being a copy and pasted song (detracting from it being orignianl content)...the rest of it may as well been copy and pasted from this book:

http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_noss? ... on&x=0&y=0

There is a female version of it that says the exact same stuff...just like the version does above.

At the end of the post, the OP said the best she had to say was this:

My best advice to those trying to avoid being a victim of mind fukc would be if it seems too good to be true- it more than likely is.

How many times have you heard, "If something is too good to be true, it usually is..." This, along with the stuff about the flawed diamonds...it is all written verbatim elsewhere (as many of us have heard it again and again).

Nothing is original in this first post except the way the information was all paraphrased and strung together.

Now, although plagiarism is just another common cluster b trait, the main reason for bringing this up is not to point out that the first post of this thread was full of it, because it is of value to add here that plagiarism (which is a variation of the 'copycat'), is a major 101 way that cluster b's manipulate the minds of others.

The copy and pasted song, the literature from The Art Of Seduction, and the same philosophy written by life strategist Shari Schreiber (who specifically writes about how cluster b women seduce and mind fu*k men) are scattered through the entire original post, and their work/thoughts/writings are anchored/connected to the one doing the copying/plagiarism.

Another meaning of plagiarism is 'close imitation'.

Even in the original post we see statements like:

She will be gauging your degree of expression and gratitude for her excellent treatment of you. If you give the reaction or material things (as I used to want) that she longs for, she will continue to feed into that childish ego, and give you everything your heart desires because she can! You’ve been read, gauged, tested, and entranced over a few drinks, and it’s all fun and games until someone breaks her heart.

Verbal probing into conversation (seemingly harmless though it is) she’ll begin to find out all about you. Where you’re from, single/married, why you’re single/married, about your job, social activities, friends, interests, children, volunteer work, education- anything! All of these things say something about you as a person, your values, your goals, your strengths, your weaknesses, and what you prize and pride most in life. That’s where she will begin to focus, building a common bond between the 2 of you. Something you share and can find similarities in, and she will use that to get closer to you and gain your trust.

All of these statements are some of the building blocks of 'matching and mirroring', and matching and mirroring a person is a type of plagiarism. You are learning a person's personal value system and mirroring it back to them (they aren't being original, but are copying the personal values of someone else-and taking credit for it in the process).

They are plagiarizing you.

There is much further detail to this (even psychologist have written of the connection of the cluster b to plagiarism), and one of my almost ex BPD's did this to a perfect science. She found out the kind of work I did, researched it, and then (in our conversations) copy and pasted a lot of what she learned to me-making me think we were so connected and right for each other.

I thought she was so smart and right fome.
A few months later I discovered that she didn't come up with what she mirrored to me, rather, she did research on what my work/education revolved around and fed it back to me through a Feedback loop.

In social gatherings, public speeches, on Facebook, and even in counseling sessions, the cluster b will plagiarize the words of other people. This connects them to what you want to hear or with what makes them sound as wise/talented/insightful as the people who actually produced the information in the first place.

In fact, speaking of plagiarism as it pertains to the manipulation of the mind 101...I recent thread was just started here that said something like:

"Are HPD's Copycats?"

histrionic-personality/topic61753.html

And this thread, beginning with the copy and pasting of the Madonna song, is a good answer/starting point to answer that question.

You seem to take a great interest in the study of manipulation, and seem to think it something special for some reason- not sure why that is, but perhaps someday you'll get the nack of it and you'll finallly be satisified with yourself and your abilities therein...

You seem to be drawn towards manipulation and it's workings in most unhealthy way, not just to understand it, but to practice it as well.

I could have gone deper into the manipulation process and detatiled exactly what those different physical movents, postures, and consitancies alluded to in in the reading of someone, what each part of their speach, the tone in which they speek, the way the look at you/look away as they certain things means different things in the reading of their emotions and insecureties, how to pull the valuable bits of what they say and how they say it, and pick apart the fluff from the dimonds of info that lead to breaking them and entrancing them, how to get into their head and become what they need just by reading these simple signals and using them; but I didn't do that. I refused to to do that- you know why???

Because of people like you who seek to DO this; not just to understand it, to be garded against it or see that the fault in what was done isn't all yours, you were tricked by a master mind and it could have happened to anyone- no one is safe, etc...
I destinctly said I wrote this peace NOT as a how to, but for understanding of the how and why behind it.

Teaching people how to hurt others is WRONG! Explination was all that was necessary for those to understand and feel vindicated from their part in how this all occured in their own lifes. If the link you provided her is a how to of how to do this, I wish you'd remove it for the sake of the many innocent people who couldbe dmaged by others who seek to posess such knowledge.

Someone like me who was borninto a world that created me into being this way, lived a manipulative life with out realizing how painful it was for others, that doesn't make it right or excusable, it explains it and gives me hope that it can be changed for my own future and for those I chose to have in my life.

Someone like you who has been hurt and is now filled with anger and rage, wanting to punish others for all the wrong that was done to you, for nothing more than your own personal satisfaction... A so called NON who seeks to destroy others by learning the most horrible forms of mental torture and mind control should not have access to that kind of information.

Believe it or not, I feel for your pain, because I can see that you're hurting and I feel sorry for you in that; but making others suffer for your internal pain and suffering doesn't take what's inside you away. It feels good for the moment, but everything still there under the surface stewing and bubbling and getting stronger and more destructive as you keep feeding it with the destroyed lives of others. How do I know this? Because this was my life for a very long time, hurting others because I hurt so bad. It's not right, you and all the other NON's tell us all constantly that it's not right- so why are you trying to learn about and do it to others yourself?

I see you jmac, I see you very clearly for what you are, and so do many others...

I really wish you'd focus on healing and not hurting people. Hurting people will not take away your pain, it won't make things right and it will destroy YOU MORE than you've already been victum to thus far. I hope some day you find the curage to heal, vengance is cowardly and that's all your looking for now- revenge.

OI'm done, I've said all I can say here and I'm sure you didn't hear a word of it anyways, but I've said my peace.

I hope one day you move on and become free from your rage- it's an ugly debilitating place to be.
~Alice

by **nowheregirl** » Sun Apr 10, 2011 6:07 pm

Alice,

This is changing the subject and I'm sorry about that, but I just want to ask you if you would think about making a thread about masochism.

I have some unresolved masochistic feelings and I don't really understand them at all. When I was in therapy my therapist kinda opened me up to exploring them by going to a bondage club and I did and I still have unresolved feelings and issues I need to workout.

I don't know if this is a normal issue for HPD, Bipolar, Borderlline, Abuse, PTSD, or what, but I want to get over this feeling like I need to feel like this.

I kind of was wondering if I was supposed to sublimate my emotional masochism into a physical masochism to vent it, but I couldn't do it. Just wondering What do you think?

by **AliceWonders** » Sun Apr 10, 2011 7:07 pm

nowheregirl wrote:I have some unresolved masochistic feelings and I don't really understand them at all. When I was in therapy my therapist kinda opened me up to exploring them by going to a bondage club and I did and I still have unresolved feelings and issues I need to workout.

I don't know if this is a normal issue for HPD, Bipolar, Borderlline, Abuse, PTSD, or what, but I want to get over this feeling like I need to feel like this.

I kind of was wondering if I was supposed to sublimate my emotional masochism into a physical masochism to vent it, but I couldn't do it. Just wondering What do you think?

I actually have an excelent article on BDP and sexual paraphillias (with according the paraphilic definition maschosim falls under paraphillia definition) but it will take me some time to dig that up and come back any kind of full expliantion to the corillation between BPD and masochistic tendancies and compulsions, but YES there is one, and I beleive it's only seen in about 1-3% of those afflicted with BPD to have this in any kind of extreme compulsive nature, and drive. Oddities in sedual behaviour aren't un heard of in the general population and are more 'normal' then not in many cases, it's when they become an obsession and life impacting drive and necessity that they become paraphillic and abnormal... Or say 'thyey' say...

Maschosim (primary maschosim) is a deeply engrained facet to ones personality and connected to the 'death instinct' wanting to be tortured and punished, degradedand shamed is something that ties deep into the root of the person and goes back to supreme feelings of guilt, shame and self loathing

the primary nature of masochism is to underscore an early fusion of the death instinct through and with the life instinct, occurring internally. Accordingly primary masochism also becomes primal in psychic and instinctual life, prior to any object. Benno Rosenberg further developed this Freudian conception by emphasizing masochism's role as a "guardian over life" and the importance of being able to eroticize increases in tension, and thus unpleasure (1991). This step is indeed essential in tempering satisfaction, thereby opening the way for both hallucinatory wish fulfillment and the constitution of an early internal temporality. At issue, then, is a primary nucleus of the ego.

Original erogenous masochism, or primary masochism, enables the libido's initial control of the death instinct within the individual, thus protecting him from destruction. One part of the death instinct is diverted outward by the libido, giving birth to destructive drives, drives of control, and sadistic drives, by putting it at the service of the sexual function. The other part, which remains within the organism, is bound through libidinal coexcitation; this is the original erogenous masochism. While masochism can, like a "drug" of self-preservation, lead the human being toward death, it is also a means for the libido to bind and thereby contain the death instinct and protect it from self-destruction.

Freud would maintain this model throughout his work and in "Analysis, Terminable and Interminable" (1937c) insisted on the role of masochism in the need for punishment, in the unconscious feeling of guilt in the resistance to treatment, and in the negative therapeutic reaction, thus providing a foothold for modern theorizations of these fundamental problems.

The death instinct was Freud's attempt to explain this repetition compulsion that overrides the pleasure principle, whether in post-traumatic dreams, certain compulsive children's games (such as the "fort-da" game), or indeed in analysands' resistances to the treatment (the transference). He observed that "the aim of all life is death," "inanimate things existed before living ones" and that "everything living dies for internal reasons" (p. 38). Drawing on August Weismann's differentiation of soma from germ-plasma, Freud went on to draw "a sharp distinction between ego-instincts, which we equated with death instincts, and sexual instincts, which we equated with life instincts" (pp. 52-53). He thus continued to adhere to the dualistic concept of the drives: "even more definitely dualistic than before—now that we describe the opposition as being not between ego instincts and sexual instincts but between life instincts and death instincts" (p. 53).

Freud found support for his arguments in Fechner's stability principle: "The dominating tendency of mental life . . . is the effort the reduce, to keep constant or to remove internal tension due to stimuli . . . a tendency which finds expression in the pleasure principle; and our recognition of this fact is one of our strongest reasons for believing in the existence of death instincts" (p. 55-56).

The source of the death drive lies in the cathexis of bodily zones that can generate afferent excitations for the psyche then; this certainly involves tension in the musculature determined by a biological urge. Its locus is in the id, then later under the influence of the ego, as well as in the superego, where it functions to restrict libidinization. In melancholia, "a pure culture of the death instinct" (1923b, p. 53) governs the superego, such that the ego can impel the subject towards death.

The energy of this urge is fairly resistant to shaping, diversion, or displacement and it manifests in subtle but powerful ways. The operation of this almost invisible energy has been described as a "work of the negative" (André Green). Its object is the implementing organ—the musculature—that enables the aim to be fulfilled. Paradoxically, the libido, subject to restraint by the destrudo (Edoardo Weiss's term), and leading to primary masochism and sadism, is the object of the death drive here. According to Freud's descriptions, its goal is dissociation, regression, or even dissolution. While leading organic life back to an inorganic state is the final stage, "the purpose of the death drive is to fulfil as far as is possible a disobjectalising function by means of unbinding" (Green, p. 85). It is therefore an entropic process in the strict sense.

After explaining the notion of the death instinct in Beyond the Pleasure Principle, Freud returned to it a number of times in his later works. He mentioned it in Group Psychology and the Analysis of the Ego (1921c) as the source of aggression and hostility between people and in "The Libido Theory" (1923a), and then developed the theory in The Ego and the Id (1923b), especially in the chapters on "the two classes of instincts" and "the dependent relationships of the ego." In this work, he connected his new drive theory with the structural theory that he had just expounded.

Then, following a dispute with Fritz Wittels, who jumped to a hasty conclusion concerning a connection between the death of Freud's daughter Sophie (January 1920) and the emergence of the concept of the death drive (a claim that is still being debated today—cf. Grubrich-Simitis), Freud returned to this concept in "The Economic Problem of Masochism" (1924c), in which he posited primary masochism both as evidence and as a vestige of the conjunction between the death drive and Eros. He thus elucidated the negative therapeutic reaction and the concept of unconscious guilt and indicated that "moral masochism becomes a classical piece of evidence for the existence of fusion of instinct. Its danger lies in the fact that it originates from the death instinct and corresponds to the part of that instinct which has escaped being turned outwards as an instinct of destruction" (p. 170).

Source: http://www.enotes.com/psychoanalysis-en ... t-thanatos and other links provided from that site...

This is something I intend to do more research in after my exams, because it's something that effects me too.
It's very uncomfortable to be confused by your sexuality and it's real struglle to fight it too- I commend you for not giving into your needs and desires. If yours run as deep as mine does, i know how hard it is to keep those urges down and 'normal' sex seems somewhat lacking because your kink is so powerful and you need to endulge it so great.

I can tell you from my own experiences that endulging in your kinks and perversions doesn't make it go away- you're drive will not be quenched by submitting to your desire. All that happens is that you get a taste of it, you get to feel the peace and satisfaction that comes with it and takes an even bigger role in your mind, your sexuality and your life- so no, I would not recomend giving into your desires because it doesn't makeit stop- it makes it WORSE!

Once you open that door to desire it's near impossible to close...

Your masochism is seeded (as is your PD) in your childhood rearing and a malfunction of the ego and pyschosexual developmental stages. You're taking the pain and rage you feel towards your 'attacker/abuser' and internalizing it into yourself because you can't attak the object, you're not willing to attack someone else, and you don't want to hurt yourself, so it becomes a desire to have someone else inflict that pain you crave to endure, because you want so badly to inflict but you feel guilt about that and would never do it...

You're a masochist because you're secretly sadistic. If you were to think about giving pain or hummilation to someone else and you being the aggressor you may find you get secretly turned on, because the opossing drive lies within you as well.

It's confussing and complex. It's something that 'normal' people have as well, but when you have it with a PD- it's all more intense because it's warped along side the reast of your menatilty and thereby runs all the more deeper and compulsive.

You're very brave to admit that fact out here and I commned you for that as well.
It's NOT 'common' for PD's to have sexual abnormalities but yes it does happen and it's usually very intense.

I'm sorry I can't shed more light on this at the moment, but I feel your pain and your shame in what you're going through. I'll see if I can find some info on this for later or through the week and create a seperate post for us to disguss this more in depth.

But it's an escape mechanism as much as it is a pervsion and a venting of pent up emotions, it's messed up is what it is :lol:

and it's not something that there's been hoards of research on, but it is there- I just have to find that info on my other external hard drive...

Thanks for asking a very difficult question with such honesty and bravery.
Like every other piece of your menaltity this is something that can be addressed and treated in therapy.

~Alice

by **nowheregirl** » Sun Apr 10, 2011 7:39 pm

Thanks a lot for that post Alice. It made me feel better about me.

I know there isn't a lot of information about this. I just wanted to get this out to you to let you know I appreciate it and now I am going to re-read your post.

by **orion13213** » Tue Apr 12, 2011 4:11 am

AliceWonders wrote:Orion,

You're a NARC? I don't think I knew that... Interesting...

Is there something between the NPD and HPD male/female attraction at all? It just seems that many of us HPD's seem to have a stronger love realtionship or bonding towards NPD men, (and I include myself in that because my XBF is rather NARCish as well, in traits though, not a full out PD I don't think) but it's interesting the bonding between the PD's seem to run very deep in a romantic level- wouldn't you agree???

I know you do alot of research in to the various PD's and I'd love to hear your findings on that, if you have any.

Also I wonder how the minds of NPD varry in the manipulation process of others?
Do you think it's the same as I described here or different in some way?

I'm not sure how BPD words in the mid of manipulation, or even if they manipulate at all in this way. I know I have both BPD & HPD aqs my Dx, but I see seperating of the 2 more clearly in myself as I read back and forth between the forums and investigate the research behind the 2.
It would seem in emotionality I'm BPD through and through:
- plunging highs and lows, evertything intense and extreme in feeling and totality
- vast degrees of self punishment, sudicidality and worthlessness
- identity difussion issues and harsh self crisisms
- intense rage and destruction
- sexuality is ascue

But my meothods are more of an HPD nature:
- using sexuality and looks to manipulate and prey on people (men especially)
- relationships are highly emotional and I always become consumed by them
- destruction of men emotionally and in careers
- constant insecurity in my love object and the relationship itself

So sometimes I'm still unsure where one PD mentaily takes over another, and as such, I'm not always sure if I'm spot on for one PD's description over another. It does get confussing sometimes but I think all the cluster B's tend to run together in varrying degrees of their aspects, at least that's what I've seen through researching.

I wonder, do you happen to know what distinctive factor leads to the development of one PD over another, as the dominant PD in the cluster B cascade? I don't beleive I've found anything that depicts the difference between that development as of yet...

because childhood itself is a time of sublime, glorious, seemingly unlimited narcissisim. Think about it guys (and girls): as a child you are sheltered, fed, clothed, pampered; sometimes even indulged. Your horizons seem endless. And, it's the only time in your life when this intense narcissisim is ok; even considered cute and intentionally propagated onto you by supposedly rational and responsible adults.
is that the childhood of a NPD or a NON you just described?

Mine obviously wasn't like that, but it sounds wonderful

Take Care
~Alice

Alice as far as I know, besides genetic predispositions...IMO

-BPD arises from extreme insecurity during childhood and fears of abandonment by one parent or the other, often brought on/accompanied by childhood abuse, especially childhood sexual abuse.
-HPD is similar in many ways to BPD, but it has a tighter focus: deep dissastisfaction and dissapointment with a parent of the opposite sex of the child, who later grows into HPD. I suppose that the parent with whom the HPD has so much trouble could be absent, as well.
-Narcissism/NPD/Malignant Narcissism/AsPD are all very different from BPD or HPD (except so called BPD with anti-social features and Disingenuous HPD-but maybe these were false Dx's, in reality comorbidities between BPD or HPD and NPD or AsPD). But the narcissistic line PD's are all related versions of the same problem: selfishness, self-love, and unawareness of others. All these PD's begin with a disrespect of mental and physical boundaries of a child, either by deprivation, spoiling and overindulgence, or, especially, an alternating cycle between the two. This produces a narcissitic injury, or at least an ignorance, which blocks the person from experiencing their true self. Their selfishness is a compensation for the resulting emptiness the person feels inside.
As for narcs and manipulation yes it does continuously vary because IMO all the the PD's and their involved traits are continuosly variable...that is they are like height just as some people are short, some medium, some tall, some are kinda narcissitic/manipulative, some more so, some way more so.

As for me I know my father definately had narcissistic traits, and as they say, narcs raise narcs. I don't know if I have enough traits to be NPD, maybe so. I know I like to rescue women in trouble (HPD's!) maybe because my Dad had destructive affairs and was into alcohol and as the oldest brother I felt I had to protect my Mom (Orion meets Oedipus?). I have a reckless, somewhat curiosity when it comes to beautiful dysfunctional women (who themselves often seem to me to be NPD) but have never been involved in domestic violence, etc., Instead of that, I just split. This sounds a lot like phallic narcissism (Don Juan syndrome)...I like romance and being in love, the deeper it is the more fascinating. The exhilaration of it is addictive and this is a BPD trait, no? Was married at 19 for 4 years but it felt claustrophobic, although I feel my ex-wife and I were too young and not a good match. I don't know, they say don't Dx yourself. I know I have my share of problematic traits...I lived that sort of middle class childhood, like in the TV commercials where the parents tried to re-capture their lost childhood by giving their kids too much, although my father also taught me the value of education and critical thinking since he was engineer. As a result some of the most valued experiences in my life have involved rather spartan activites, like martial arts and climbing, and over indulgences, like chasing beautiful women.

A balance acheived by extremes, no? :lol:

by **velouria** » Tue Apr 12, 2011 7:37 pm

nowheregirl wrote:Alice,

This is changing the subject and I'm sorry about that, but I just want to ask you if you would think about making a thread about masochism.

I have some unresolved masochistic feelings and I don't really understand them at all. When I was in therapy my therapist kinda opened me up to exploring them by going to a bondage club and I did and I still have unresolved feelings and issues I need to workout.

I don't know if this is a normal issue for HPD, Bipolar, Borderlline, Abuse, PTSD, or what, but I want to get over this feeling like I need to feel like this.

I kind of was wondering if I was supposed to sublimate my emotional masochism into a physical masochism to vent it, but I couldn't do it. Just wondering What do you think?

Hi nowheregirl,

I just thought to respond because I, too, tend to wander into masochistic territory and I have a recent experience to share.

I recently decided to abstain from sugar. This came about because I realized that I am actually addicted to it. I mean, really, really. I'm like a wet drunk around sugar and anything scrumptious. So a few days ago (5 to be exact) I decided to quit for 45 days to see whether I could kick the habit.

In that time I've been overtaken by major withdrawals, worse than those I experienced when I quit smoking. Emotional and physical. I'm not exactly craving the stuff - just going through this horrible roller coaster ride, experiencing rage, depression, exhaustion, frustration, sadness, etc. A whole host of negative emotions. And having some strange, enlightening dreams and realizations.

My friend called me a masochist for doing this and I realized that, yes, at face value abstaining from something that provides pleasure is somewhat masochistic. I can easily make that connection.

The interesting thing is that as I am going through this roller coaster (and knowing the ride will end at some point in the near future), I feel like I'm in total control. I'm choosing to feel these things, I'm choosing to stay on the ride. I am finding healthy ways to overcome the negative feelings. I could buy a dozen cupcakes right now and lick off all the icing and all this would go away. But I'm sticking to this abstention because I want to....know the mystery on the other side (remember that?). I want to know what it's like to be free from addiction. That mysterious place where time is not measured by encounters with my addictive substances.

I think this goes along with the death instinct to which Alice refers. I'm not in a place where I can fully expand on that but I am making the connection here.

I'm wondering if you could do a test to see if there is something you can give up, something on which you depend. Kind of like Lent. And see what happens, and what you discover about yourself.

by **nowheregirl** » Sat Apr 16, 2011 3:09 am

velouria wrote:I'm wondering if you could do a test to see if there is something you can give up, something on which you depend. Kind of like Lent. And see what happens, and what you discover about yourself.

I'm still thinking about this one. I don't have any really bad habits. I'm thinking maybe making myself do some things I don't want to do might be what I need to do. I have been putting off doing some important things because I am afraid to do them. I think I need to pick one and just give it a shot and see where it leads (uncover the mystery there).

I'm afraid to look for a job because of my age. I have to buy a printer to print resumes and I have been putting it off entirely too long. I stopped working when my Dad passed away, but that was a long time ago. I lost my confidence and anyway I do have enough money but I really should try to make a better living. I get help from my roomate and I think maybe it's time for a different living arrangement too for both of us to be able to move on with our lives. (It's my ex). We are still friends but it's been over a year since we "broke up" and it's getting time to move forward. I think he wants to more than I do but he just won't take the first step.

I know that's not exactly what you meant. It's all I got though for now. I don't have any thing healthwise to give up I don't think except maybe coffee but I'm not real sure about that one. I thought about it and was going to but my roomate drinks it so I thought it might be too hard smelling it brewing etc, but with the creamer and all it's getting pretty expensive so I'm still thinking on this.

by **nerdmaufia** » Mon Apr 18, 2011 3:54 pm

This is a fascinating thread. All of you that have posted are a rare breed of intelligent people.

I have a radically different angle on all of this:

Analyzing someone's hidden desires and making it come true is an act of PROFOUND LOVE and SELFLESSNESS!

Following up with brainwashing and abuse, is another story.

Consider mirroring from a different perspective:

One of the great sources of frustration in our lives is other people's
stubbornness. How hard it is to reach them, to make them see things
our way. We often have the impression that when they seem to be listening
to us, and apparently agreeing with us, it is all superficial—the moment we
are gone, they revert to their own ideas. We spend our lives butting up
against people,as if they were stone walls. But instead of complaining
about how misunderstood or ignored you are, why not try something dif-
ferent: instead of seeing other people as spiteful or indifferent, insteadof
trying to figure out why they act the way they do, look at them through
the eyes of the seducer. The way to lure people out of their natural in-
tractability and self-obsession is to enter their spirit.
All of us are narcissists. When we were children our narcissism was
physical: we were interested in our own image, our own body, as if it were
a separate being. As we grow older, our narcissism grows more psychologi-
cal: we become absorbed in our own tastes, opinions, experiences. A hard
shell forms around us. Paradoxically, the way to entice people out ofthis
shell is to become more like them, in fact a kind of mirror image ofthem.
You do not have to spend days studying their minds; simply conform to
their moods, adapt to their tastes, play along with whatever they send your
way. In doing so you will lower their natural defensiveness. Their sense of
self-esteem does not feel threatened by your strangeness or different habits.
People truly love themselves, but what they love most of all is to see their
ideas and tastes reflected in another person. This validates them. Their ha-
bitual insecurity vanishes. Hypnotized by their mirror image, they relax.
Now that their inner wall has crumbled, you can slowly draw them out,
and eventually turn the dynamic around. Once they are open to you, it be-
comes easy to infect them with your own moods and heat. Entering the
other person's spirit is a kind of hypnosis; it is the most insidious and effec-
tive form of persuasion known to man."

- The Art of Seduction

So perhaps what makes a person HPD is when not only they seduce via mirroring, but when they NEED to seduce via mirroring.

From the same book:

.....your entry into a person's spirit must be a tactic, a
way to bring him or her under your spell. You cannot be simply a sponge,
soaking up the other person's moods. Mirror them for too long and they
will see through you and be repelled by you. Beneath the similarity to them
that you make them see, you must have a strong underlying sense of your
own identity. When the time comes, you will want to lead them into your
spirit; you cannot live on their turf. Never take mirroring too far, then. It is
only useful in the first phase of a seduction; at some point the dynamic
must be reversed.

Taking turns mirroring is really no different than taking turns to speak during a conversation, just on a larger time scale.
I think every narcissist should learn to perform HPD manipulation/seduction. And every HPD should take a shot at drawing someone in via self-importance. It's the lack of versatility, the helpless need to either be an HPD or a narc, that develops into madness. Simple as that.

by **xgirl** » Mon Sep 08, 2014 1:14 am

I can't believe what I'm reading. This is exactly what has happened to me. I can't believe thus is something people actually do to hurt others. I was memorized by a man who i thought loved me so deeply he wanted to be in my soul. Now I see he was the devil who wanted to own my soul. I ended our relationship last week after 2 years of lies and money I've lent to him. am still struggling with the addiction to him. I look at my phone every 15 minutes to see if he has texted me. Even though I know now he doesn't love me I still am addicted to texting him. He told me if I wanted to continue talking to him I still have to address him by his title "sir" how do I stop? I'm going to therepy now but I was thinking about hypnosis to undo what he has done to my mind and spirit

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