Manipulation of the Mind 101

Alice,

Yeah I definitely see it. My ex is still a child. She can be sweet but when she's not it's hell on earth. I notice that she became more childish over the past few months. In fact, it is what orion said. I became the "big bad wolf" or rather the enemy she has to rebel against.

LightZero wrote:Alice,

Yeah I definitely see it. My ex is still a child. She can be sweet but when she's not it's hell on earth. I notice that she became more childish over the past few months. In fact, it is what orion said. I became the "big bad wolf" or rather the enemy she has to rebel against.

That's so true.

My X husband knew about the child in me and said it all the time, "Sometimes you really do turn into a child you know that? Like really- you become a little girl in every way..."

My XBF new it: "Grow the fu*k up! You're so childish! Will you stop with these childish games!"

And my son's father knew it too, he treated me like a baby quite often

My new psych said the other day, 'there's a child in you that never grew up' and it's true...

I'm glad you saw it for yourself, because it's almost unbelievable to be presented it on the table- a full grown woman who is still a child? But that's just what it is

Take Care Zero

Munipultion certianly is a valuable tool of a cluster "B". Lot of tracks to cover, and they get pretty good at it. Lifetime of practice and learning....Good to be self aware of it though, as it cetianly takes it toll on the person being munipulated and the munipulator too.

Why are you harassing her in public like this?

If you have an issue with her, send her a message in private.

If you have something constructive to say, then say it in a constructive manner.


Making fun of her spelling, is not helpful. Questioning her motives for change, repeatedly is not helpful. Clearly she is trying.


I don't know your relationship with her or the issues between you........but this last post of yours, crosses a line.

If you want to act nasty towards her.......do not do it in a public setting.

AliceWonders wrote:Because she represents EVERYTHING you've ever hoped and dreamed for all rolled into one beautiful thing that you can hold and love for the rest of your life. That doesn't happen though, and we know that- so what happens, the bad in her is seen and craziness plays it's role in the relationships destruction. And YET- you still feel addicted to her, you still feel drawn to help her, shelter her, save her, and be there for her- why????

Alice! Love it....Deeper levels than ever! Bright, dynamic, and articulating!
Possible answer to your challenging 'why' questions: I think it was Freud who explained why men who are missing something essential from their childhood (that is to say, all of us men)...why we are so irresisitably attracted to narcissistic women: this is because childhood itself is a time of sublime, glorious, seemingly unlimited narcissisim. Think about it guys (and girls): as a child you are sheltered, fed, clothed, pampered; sometimes even indulged. Your horizons seem endless. And, it's the only time in your life when this intense narcissisim is ok; even considered cute and intentionally propagated onto you by supposedly rational and responsible adults. So when a man sees a beautiful, self-absorbed narcissistic woman he is instantly reminded of his own narcissistic childhood and of all the things he experienced but never got enough of (or wished he had experienced, but never really touched). When he sees her adored and pursued by others he subconsciously wants to live out a second glorious narcissistic childhood through her vicariously. Plus, have great sex with her!!!...what better way to get closer to the queen/diva/goddess who doles out that narcissisitic satiation?

BTW speaking of manipulation I have to keep reminding myself of the differences between HPD's and NPD's (and BPD's). Of the three NPD women are by far the most cunning and cold manipulators, but because of my own narcissisim they really push my various buttons: anger, lust, and, just as you perceived, Alice, a would-be father figure. Most revealing of all, in running into them I keep thinking I'm going to stumble across a 'soulmate,' in which the synergy between us will cure our mutual narcissism and push into an intense love affair. A real love affair. Part of my 'therapy' has been to meet some more NPD's in the clubs and re-engage them, this time armed with knowledge picked up from this forum and elsewhere. There is a kind of devious satisfaction in playing with them on their own level. Kind of like the modest guy in the circus wearing the funny red uniform, controlling the tigresses with only animal psychology and a whip.

Nah, on second thought I'll leave the whip at home...

okherewego212 wrote:Munipultion is certianly is a valuable too of a cluster "B". Good to be self aware of it, as it cetianly takes it too on the person being munipulated.

That's not what you said!
I saw what you said and you said eaxctly this:

Yes Alice.. you are a great manipulator.. no doubt.
Are you proud of it and going to miss it IF you get better?
My opinion, to suck others dry of emotions, is nothing to be proud of.
What ever turns your crank, but truly hope yoor therapy, gets hold of you behaviour soon. Just my opionon. As long as you lear it's wrong how destructive it is and how it sucksthe life out of the other person, maybe there is hope foryou?

That's the main thing right? And what you're truying to change? Right? That my understanding? True?

This is what I read on my blackberry before falling asleep last night, and this morning you changed the entire post to be nothing like it was yesterday and that's not cool. If you felt bad about what you said because it was hurtful, an appology should have been made, and if you were covering your own *ss so that others can't see how you acted, then that's just pathetic and cowardly...

Sometimes I say things that I shouldn't on here, and if I do, I appologize for it without removing what was said previously- why?
So that myself and others can learn from the mistake made in what was said- not hide it out of shame and for my own stupid pride.

To answer your origonal post (as was my intention this morning) no- I'm not proud of what I did and I don't beleive I've ever said I am proud of it, but I admit and discuss it openly to help others see and understand how it happens and the forces behind it.
I wrote this thread for YOU and all the other NON's who seem to want to understand who this happens and how the manipulation occures. I wrote in the 3rd perosn puprosly to keep it away from ME as a person and to leave it as a statemtn of exucution rather than a personal telling of my life.

In case you hadn't noticed, for a while I stopped posting about 'me' and kept to research findings for the most part, and this is why.

I don't need you, or anyone else taking the things I've done in the past and making be feel bad or guilty about them- that puts me in a dark and dangerous place, it's not good.
I don't need you or anyone else transferring their emotional damage on me (I have enough of my own) because the things I say or do trigger your hurtfilled emotions towards your X's.
I don't need you or anyone else questioning my intent or capablities to change purley because your X's may have failed in their own therapy.

You made another crule post to me last night where I questioned your post, your mindset, your reason and even offered to give you help with emotional support and listening as a 'friend' because it seems as if you're hurting and inside. You used to be a good guy on here and believe in my despite my mistakes, but that's changed and I miss it. Whatever I did to change your opinion of me I'm sorry, I wish it wasn't that way because I miss you in my corner and I don't like fighting on you on here now.

I'm at a point where I'm not yet able to deal with hurt and anger properly, so when people present me with these things consitantly I have to cut the out of my life so that I don't hurt them and send myself into a bad place by their destruction and my emotional pain in doing that. I don't want to hurt you and I dont' want to cause you pain for hurting my feelings.

So we can either deal with this PRIVATELY and see what lies benieth, why you're so hurtful towards me lately and fix it, or we can just argee we no longer have anyhting good to offer eachother through our posts and agreee to aviod each other on here as much as possible. But this provocation must stop! I can only take so much for so long and I'm reaching my limit with your baligerance and sacrasm.

I'm offering you an olive branch here and it's choice to take it or break it.
Would you like to be respectful and supportive of each other again on here, or should we just forget the past and accept that you're no longer willing to add anything good to my journey, nore me to yours?

Let me know what you decide...

Twistedmister wrote:Why are you harassing her in public like this?

If you have an issue with her, send her a message in private.

If you have something constructive to say, then say it in a constructive manner.


Making fun of her spelling, is not helpful. Questioning her motives for change, repeatedly is not helpful. Clearly she is trying.


I don't know your relationship with her or the issues between you........but this last post of yours, crosses a line.

If you want to act nasty towards her.......do not do it in a public setting.

Thank you Twisted

I become the poster child for NON anger quite a bit from time to time, but I admit I was shocked when he was the spewing his venom because he was always very supportive me in the past and now something has changed... On his end. But I'd like to get back where it was before (if possible) because we always got along well and supported each other whenever possible; this new 'OK' is not like that and my guess is he's hurting in some way and I wish I could help him through that, because I know he's actually a good guy- I've seen it.

But thank you Twisted for sticking up for me and questioniung his actions. I was very hurt when his words last night and I think things have gone a bit too far lately too...

Take Care
~Alice

Sorry Alice and yes I did change it, as in hindsite. I tamed it down, but basically said the same thing. In hindsight, I realized you might take it the wrong way and blow it way out of proportion. I see you have done that and doesn't suprise me. Hopefully you get over it soon, and not hang onto it, like usual. Again, opoligize.

My questioning was to ask if you learned not to munipulate anymore, as you said you discussed it with your therapist. From your posts, you almost appeared proud of it. Sorry, for pointing that out, and was just my opinion. Not meant to be offensive, but just a question. However, again, I realized latter you might take offense.

Anyway, as I said before, life is pretty good now and this chapter of my life is pretty well over. Yes I am a nice guy and someday you will be pretty nice too. I know your trying to change and determined to do so. I see that and have said it and truly hope that is the case.

Anyway, I will avoid your posts, and do wish you the very very best!!!! Take care.

Orion,

You're a NARC? I don't think I knew that... Interesting...

Is there something between the NPD and HPD male/female attraction at all? It just seems that many of us HPD's seem to have a stronger love realtionship or bonding towards NPD men, (and I include myself in that because my XBF is rather NARCish as well, in traits though, not a full out PD I don't think) but it's interesting the bonding between the PD's seem to run very deep in a romantic level- wouldn't you agree???

I know you do alot of research in to the various PD's and I'd love to hear your findings on that, if you have any.

Also I wonder how the minds of NPD varry in the manipulation process of others?
Do you think it's the same as I described here or different in some way?

I'm not sure how BPD words in the mid of manipulation, or even if they manipulate at all in this way. I know I have both BPD & HPD aqs my Dx, but I see seperating of the 2 more clearly in myself as I read back and forth between the forums and investigate the research behind the 2.
It would seem in emotionality I'm BPD through and through:
- plunging highs and lows, evertything intense and extreme in feeling and totality
- vast degrees of self punishment, sudicidality and worthlessness
- identity difussion issues and harsh self crisisms
- intense rage and destruction
- sexuality is ascue

But my meothods are more of an HPD nature:
- using sexuality and looks to manipulate and prey on people (men especially)
- relationships are highly emotional and I always become consumed by them
- destruction of men emotionally and in careers
- constant insecurity in my love object and the relationship itself

So sometimes I'm still unsure where one PD mentaily takes over another, and as such, I'm not always sure if I'm spot on for one PD's description over another. It does get confussing sometimes but I think all the cluster B's tend to run together in varrying degrees of their aspects, at least that's what I've seen through researching.

I wonder, do you happen to know what distinctive factor leads to the development of one PD over another, as the dominant PD in the cluster B cascade? I don't beleive I've found anything that depicts the difference between that development as of yet...

because childhood itself is a time of sublime, glorious, seemingly unlimited narcissisim. Think about it guys (and girls): as a child you are sheltered, fed, clothed, pampered; sometimes even indulged. Your horizons seem endless. And, it's the only time in your life when this intense narcissisim is ok; even considered cute and intentionally propagated onto you by supposedly rational and responsible adults.

is that the childhood of a NPD or a NON you just described?

Mine obviously wasn't like that, but it sounds wonderful

Take Care
~Alice

okherewego212 wrote:Sorry Alice and yes I did change it, as in hindsite. I tamed it down, but basically said the same thing. In hindsight, I realized you might take it the wrong way and blow it way out of proportion. I see you have done that and doesn't suprise me. Hopefully you get over it soon, and not hang onto it, like usual. Again, opoligize.

My questioning was to ask if you learned not to munipulate anymore, as you said you discussed it with your therapist. From your posts, you almost appeared proud of it. Sorry, for pointing that out, and was just my opinion. Not meant to be offensive, but just a question. However, again, I realized latter you might take offense.

Anyway, as I said before, life is pretty good now and this chapter of my life is pretty well over. Yes I am a nice guy and someday you will be pretty nice too. I know your trying to change and determined to do so. I see that and have said it and truly hope that is the case.

Anyway, I will avoid your posts, and do wish you the very very best!!!! Take care.

I didn't blow it our of proportion, infact I didn't give much of it airs because it was so rude, I was hurt by it because you seemed to be so hurtful in it's deleivery and intent.

I have learned not to manipulate anyomore and I have set myself against conscious manipulations. I don't use men for marterial gain, I didn't manipulate my XBF- we talked openly and honestly and I didn't use sexuality or promises of anything to gain his trust. I didn't stroke his ego or do any of the 'tricks' I would have pulled last year to get him back, and to be honest I thing that my NOT manipulating him is why he wants to try again.

I don't manipulate my X husband anymore, I don't manipulate anyone at all, and I'm seeing through many of the NONs how our manipulation has hurt you guys so deeply and completely- I am trying to gain that knowledge without it hurting ME personally, and it's hard. You guys are so filled with anger for the most part that it makes it hard for us to read your words sometimes. But you have a right to be angry and feel hurt, and I respect that.

I stopped manipulating people because I knew it was wrong, but now I'm trying to understand why it's wrong by understanding how it hurts the NON's and empathise with that pain.


I was a damn good manipulator and it got me many things in life, it also cost me many things in life too.
I have no career or education, starting colledge at 32, I'm way behind my peers.
I don't have any of the things they once gave me, I've pawned all the jewlery years ago at the hight of my addiction.
I'm poor woman trying to rebuild my life and make it in this world now- on my own, without their gifts and support, and that's something very new to me.

It was easy to get that stuff from them, and because it was so easy I never had to anything for myself. I thought my game made me powerful because I could get anything I wanted or needed from them, but now I see how weak it really made me.

I can't manage my money or budget, I never had to before and i have no idea how to limit myself and not endulge.

So much bad came out of what I did back then, was it fun?
Hell yeah! it was a blast and I will miss the care free pampered days of my past. My life was easy and I never had to worry about anything- 'I had it all' which inturn has left me with nothing...

Yes I will miss it, but I think a harder life that I build on my own will bring me much more happiness than one which has purchased for me.

Sleeping with men for money is easy, but it takes a piece of your soul everytime you do it. What I did was 'fun' because of what it gave me at the time, but what it's left me now is a bunch of baggage and some deep damage that I'm only just beginning to admit and discover.

I used to be oroud of what I did, but I'm not anymore. It was wrong, for the guys I hurt and because it also hurt me in the end too...

Great Post Alice and great selfawareness....

Unlike others, that post I do commend!

Thanks...