BPD/NPD/HPD-The Differences

Labor wrote: who the heck are you to call us fake? when you said so yourself your love is CONDITIONAL RIGHT UPFRONT!!!

how the hell are you suppose to trust that? seriously???? COME ON!


"OH i'm only going to love you if you do X and X and X?" seriously? how "real" is that?

"but if you don't i won't love you!" ~ seriously??? you expect me to think "conditional love" is better?

Hi Labor..

I assume your triggered response has something to do with abandoment issues?

It is true. All relationships are conditional. It takes two parties to make it work. All relationships require work by both parties. It's just the way things are. We all do risk getting hurt, in any relationship.

If all relationships were completely "unconditional", we would have no jails, no divorces, no breakups, no end to friendships etc...... It's only common sense, that conditions do apply to all our relationships. That's life and yes, that's reality. All relationships take work and common understanding by both parties, for them to be successful.

If you don't understand why or "how real that is" , maybe it would be a good discussion for you and your therapist.

OK.

yyy wrote:Do you WANT or NOT WANT to interact with me?

yyy -

Of course I enjoy interacting with you.

My comments, writing out my feelings in no way was specifically about you and I. I'm remembering my feelings during and after the relationship with a woman I met who has HPD. Please don't take my angst over that personally.

okherewego go it. I'll copy his relevant text below -

okherewego212 wrote:It is true. All relationships are conditional. It takes two parties to make it work. All realtionships require work by both parties. It's just the way things are. We all do risk getting hurt, in any relationship.

If all relationships were completely "unconditional", we would have no jails, no divorces, no breakups, no end to friendships etc...... It's only common sense, that conditions do apply to all our relationships. That's life and all relationships take work and understanding by both parties, for them to be successful.

Yes. Every adult to adult relationship is conditional.

Perhaps it was triggering to point it out, but I agree that everyone puts conditions on their love.

And yes the evidence of it is plain to see as you wrote out.

The woman I got involved with was so easily hurt, I had to be tremendously careful not to say the wrong thing because if I did, black, her love was turned off instantly. Of course she wanted unconditional love, but she had many conditions on hers. For me though unconditional love is not a feeling that is turned on/off. Unconditional love is something that persists despite the ups/downs. It takes time to build, and once built, cannot simply be shut-off. It may be why so many NONs are on this forum, angst'ing in emotional pain over their EXes, despite everything, they still feel love.

Xdude wrote: For me though unconditional love is not a feeling that is turned on/off. Unconditional love is something that persists despite the ups/downs. It takes time to build, and once built, cannot simply be shut-off

Xdude,

I don't believe, there is such a thing a "true unconditional love" between adults. Parties that do have successful relationships, choose to stay together, because they both get something out of it. They form a very strong bond and compliment each other, as a result. "They can make it through just about anything, but they still have to work at thier relationship". No they don't leave through lifes up's and down, because they learned to work through thier differences by showing earned respect, fighting fair and know how to communicate with each other.

There will always be underlying conditions and boundries no matter how successful the relationship is. It's never just "purely unconditional". That is a fantasy..fairy tail and not reality.

The more they respect each others boundries and know each other,the more enjoyable and longer lasting the relationship. In time, the deeper their bond will grow, as well.

Real love, takes time, great commuication, respect for each other and constant work. Again, though, there is always conditions. Thus the relationship, continues to need nuturing and should never be taken for granted ( No one should expect unconditional).

OK.

okherewego212 wrote:Xdude,

I don't believe, there is such a thing a "true unconditional love" between adults. Parties that do have successful relationships, choose to stay together, because they both get something out of it. They form a very strong bond and compliment each other, as a result. "They can make it through just about anything, but they still have to work at thier relationship". No they don't leave through lifes up's and down, because they learned to work through thier differences by showing earned respect, fighting fair and know how to communicate with each other.

There will always be underlying conditions and boundries no matter how successful the relationship is. It's never just "purely unconditional". That is a fantasy..fairy tail and not reality.

The more they respect each others boundries and know each other,the more enjoyable and longer lasting the relationship. In time, the deeper their bond will grow, as well.

Real love, takes time, great commuication, respect for each other and constant work. Again, though, there is always conditions. Thus the relationship, continues to need nuturing and should never be taken for granted ( No one should expect unconditional).

OK.

Ok, I agree with you.

The only clarification I'd add, though you likely agree, is that it's the "love" between a couple that carries them through those downs, it persists despite the inevitable downs, but the reason it persists is indeed conditional as well as you wrote about.

As you wrote, the bond they built, that grew over time, is something they're trusting will continue to grow despite the temporary downturn. However if the trust between them is repeatedly broken, eventually one or the other will eventually give up trying, or at least build up so many walls that the relationship may not be salvageable. The trust in a relationship needs to be continually nurtured. Ultimately we need to know that the other person is also committed to the relationship and won't toss it all aside lightly (someone else comes along, boredom, a disagreement, etc.). It may be an unspoken condition, but it is a condition nonetheless that most adults put on their love.

I agree Xdude..and do see what you are saying....

I believe long term couples that are successful have a true loving bond built over many years. They get to know each other so well. They have built and earned complete trust and respect for each other, thus there is very little stress in the relationship. They are truly enjoying the journey of life together as one. However they are seperate and apart as well. (the whole). They still have ups and down, but generally the relationship is not that much work. Conflict and second guessing each other is rare, thus they have very few conditions that are not being met. A true pair bond. The closest thing, to unconditional love.

I guess in the end, it's all we can truly hope for,but should never to be taken for granted, nor should we ever become complacent.

I suppose to someone disordered and that is dealing with abandoment and trust issues, would have difficultiy in getting to this stage. I believe maybe, they want to be treated unconditionally and receive unconditional love, because they never received it as a child or learned proper coping skills, to achieve it. They don't want to believe, love has conditions, because they fear a repeat of the abandoment and lost trust they felt as a child. They may want the fantasy of unconditional love, so they don't feel the fear they will be abandonded. However the perfect relationship they seek,(IE: unconditional) is not going to happen.

Maybe this is why, we saw the strong reaction, from YYY and labor , in regards to stating "love does have conditions". Maybe they never realized it before?

My thoughts anyway...

OK

ok -

Agree with all you wrote.

The short version of all I wrote is that between adults, love is not just a feeling easily given, but the actions, trust, built between them. That we meet so many people, but it is rare/special when two adults see each other in some unique way, that they form a unique relationship in which they build something, over a long period of time.

And yes, between adults it can never be as it was between a parent/child. As adults, we both need to get something out of it, both need to feel secure, and that takes time, and mutual respect to build. Once built, because it is rare/special, it is not easily tossed aside, not just a feeling that can be turned on/off. Conditional yes, but strong because it is not something we easily experience with random other people, and so the relationship is not something we easily give up on once built.

Till death do us part! lol

Rare indeed, but doable.

p.s. I wanted to add that ironically, adult NONs, for all our supposed self-esteem, typically don't feel strong emotions for acquaintances, and guard their emotions and what self-esteem they do have. Interest in others perhaps, even sexual interest, but typically no strong emotional attachment for other adults. Trust needs to be established, NON's are easily hurt so often guarded, and may never develop any strong sense of trust, beyond basic human courtesy, if hurt early in the relationship.

Strangely, it seems though many of us NONs ended up here because for various reasons of our own, we let our guard down, fell for someone hard/fast/quickly, saw what we wanted to see, let our feelings be our guide in spite of behaviors that violated our boundaries. And then ended up feeling our self-esteem was shattered.

I suppose if nothing else we learned that we need our boundaries, our conditions, to protect our self-esteem too, self-esteem that is maybe not completely broken, but still often quite fragile.

Xdude, OK, and others...

I would like to chime in her just to point out the fact that I agree with both of you about the unconditional love. Even the healthiest of couples have conditions on their love. Not that they won't still love the other person if they are wronged, but that they don't just turn a blind eye to getting and feeling hurt when they do.

Unconditional means just what it says, as is, nothing could stop them and it wouldn't matter what happened or what is done to them they are always going to love that person with no stipulations to their love.

When a partner cheats, it is like the knee jerk reaction to getting burned. Shocked at first then the pain sets in. The LOVE the cheated on partner has for the cheating partner has changed. There are stages of grief and healing that counselors have you go through and stages to get to where you can first forgive, and then to hopefully let go and work through it. ONLY if the cheating partner is WILLING to NOT cheat anymore. See.. there are stipulations in the love. If it were truly unconditional, then it would not matter if the partner cheated or not they would forgive and forget and be happy and content in the relationship.

I've told you all about my sister and just this week she posted something on her social media site after a tiff with her new man that she wants a man that just HAS to have her under any circumstances and would die inside if she were mad at him, and cannot stop until she is back in his arms or some kind of crap like that. SHE has conditions of love on anyone she is with, her family, her friends if she ever has any. But everyone else is supposed to love HER unconditionally when she is the one going around hurting people. If you go against her or disagree well in that moment she HATES you. She might let go of her anger later after you've pleased her, but you practically have to BEG her to forgive you. And I will never do that nor apologize for telling her the truth and sometimes she hates me. But she wants my approval and acceptance so she always turns around and comes back for more advice etc from me.

But with a lover, she wakes up every morning and plots drama of some sort and finds ways to "get caught" at talking with other men, so she gets a reaction from her man of the moment and that proves he loves her because he got jealous. She keeps this cycle going, and when they finally stand up to her and tell her to hit the road, then she hates them, lies about them, wants to destroy them, and immediately finds a new someone to move in with before she leaves the house she is in unless she is being kicked out and has no place to go. Then she plays a game just to make them think she is sorry to buy time until she is ready with the new one to move on.

To her, as an "alleged" HPD/BPD/NPD (not diagnosing, just speculating by her actions) She can do whatever she wants including cheating on her current man/husband of the moment but he better not even look at a woman on TV that he will never meet in real life or IT ALL HITS THE FAN!! She claims she loves people right off the bat and then easily turns on them and says he hates them. "you hurt me and now I hate you". But hurting to her is anything that you do that is not in agreement with her. So her conditions on others are "do as I say or I will hate you". In her own little dream world, she feels that a man should bow down to her and tell her at least 10 times per day that she is beautiful, and how lucky he is to have her. This is in addition to working all day to provide support for her and her young son who is not their son. They must do this or she turns on them.

There is no such thing as unconditional love for anyone, but ESPECIALLY for an HPD. They will punish you if you do not meet the conditions of their love, but then expect you to overlook their "little flaws" and see them as the beauties that they are and that should be enough to make you love them and follow them to the ends of the earth. It's very sad. Sad indeed.

Scarlett

thisislabor wrote:

masquerade wrote:Please remember that while you might not agree with what other people say on here, both these users have been nothing but respectful to others in all of their postings, and they deserve the same level of respect from you. You can make your point without anger.

...anger is a great and solid and "validfying" emotion that people use and makes other people think that they are right. exceptionally useful when you think people wont believe you if you don't use it.

btw, masquerade, it's nice to have a calm conversation. i haven't had one in a while. this almost looks like a conversation by example if i were prying eyes. *shrugs* wasn't my intent but i will take it.

- Labor.

thislabor -

I'm sorry my post left you feeling angry. I agree with both of you by the way. Both that it works better to try and communicate without anger, but at the same time you feel what you feel thislabor, and being honest about it is okay too.

Some if not all of my post was fueled by my own emotions, from my own experience with someone with HPD, as well as anger at myself for acting irrationally in the relationship. Tossing many feelings aside for the sake of others, turning off what I knew rationally in favor of other strong emotions the relationship invoked in me.

However that anger is not specifically directed at you thislabor, or at yyy, or anyone else on this forum. Some of it was/is at her, but now a lot of it as at myself. I need to re-drill into myself what I knew full well, but lied to myself about. That I do have conditions on my love, that I need them, to protect my own self-esteem from being shattered, and that I got caught up in a whirlwind of emotions for someone who I assumed thought/felt like me, wanted to believe it so much that I ignored everything that told me otherwise.

I don't regret my life experience. It is what it is and something I'll learn from. It wasn't all bad, much of the time it was amazing, but your also right laborer, I have my own issues that drew me into the relationship. As an adult though, it was my choice. I don't blame her for my choices. My anger ultimately is directed at myself.

Best wishes

-- Wed Jan 04, 2012 11:42 am --

Scarlett -

Thank you for your post. It all ringed true with me.

Perhaps the white elephant in the room is that NONs, while they may have some self-esteem, are easily hurt too. We need our conditions, to protect ourselves from having our self-esteem shattered. And you're right, from my point of view, the woman I got involved with had tremendous conditions on her love. She is very sensitive, so the least thing, and yes, feelings of love could turn to hate in an instant.

It is possible for me to feel "unconditional love" for children, or a pet, but the relationship is different. I am their caretaker. I don't expect as much back as I give, but even then, they do give what they can, and I need that too. With another adult though, nope, I just can't do it. I don't want to be a care-taker to another adult. I need to have my self-esteem built up, and protected too. I need my conditions to protect myself from being hurt, and I absolutely can be hurt.

Thanks again for your post Scarlett. It expressed my own feelings perfectly.