BPD/NPD/HPD-The Differences

by **okherewego212** » Wed Jan 04, 2012 7:02 pm

Xdude wrote: With another adult though, nope, I just can't do it. I don't want to be a care-taker to another adult.

Good for you Xdude!

Xdude wrote: I need to have my self-esteem built up, and protected too. I need my conditions to protect myself from being hurt, and I absolutely can be hurt.

Xdude..anytime we enter a new relationship, whether our self esteem is intacked or not, we are at risk of getting our feelings hurt. It's the nature of the beast. AAAGH! lol

However, good self esteem, helps us assert our boundries, of what we are willing or not willing to accept. With good self esteem, you will not be content in any relationship, until you feel they are a person for you. Whether it hurts or not, it might take a few more dud's before you find the right one! lol In other words, a person with good self esteem, would not put up with disordered behavior, very long, nor likely be attracted to them in the first place.

So hey, now with all you have learned, don't be afraid to put yourself out there. Don't be afraid of getting hurt. You are stronger and wiser now. Learn to trust yourself, use your new found assertiveness, your better judgements and feel confident in the choices you will make. You will be ok.

I am sure this time you will have the confidence to back away at the "right time", if you find a partner or date that is not right for you. Have confidence in that. You have come along way,so please don't lose your trust or trust in yourself. Most of all don't be afraid of getting hurt. That threat is always there.

I am sure now , you are ready to make the right choices. Have faith in that. Don't be afraid.

OK

PS: I don't think YYY and Labor were angry with you. I think they were just upset to find out, there is no such thing as unconditional love. Not good for someone with trust issues and abandoment issues to hear. My thoughts anyway.

On the subject of unconditional love, there's a very cheesy karaoke song that I don't actually like, but it contains some words of wisdom. "Learning to love yourself is the greatest love of all". Many people with HPD, myself included, never learnt to love and accept OURSELVES unconditionally. They try to find that love from others, mistake attention and approval for love, and embark on a never ending quest for the elusive holy grail of unconditional love. They act out, testing the love, seeking reassurance that they're still loved. Sadly, they'll never find it from outside sources. They can only learn to find it within. The narcissist aspect of the HPD falls in love with the false self, invalidating and rejecting the inner child who was invalidated and rejected by others. The false self is an ideal, perfect, a projection. She/he, feels that the true self is flawed, bad, unworthy.

Therapy, self awareness, introspection and soul searching can help the HPD to find the inner child within, set her free, and begin to love her.

By learning to love ourselves unconditionally, we can begin to heal.

by **xdude** » Thu Jan 05, 2012 3:00 am

masquerade -

Truth.

by **Black Widow** » Thu Jan 05, 2012 12:53 pm

I think there is a distinction missing here between person and relationship.
You can love a person unconditionally but have conditional relationships. I think it is the right way to go around.
I don't think loving a person conditionally is love at all. It is like saying that you love a chocolate cake, but don't like chocolate, and hope it would be vanilla.
On the other hand, a relationship without conditions or boundaries is abusive.

I don't think any side is right in being totally one-sided like what I am hearing here.

An idea to consider.

by **okherewego212** » Thu Jan 05, 2012 12:54 pm

So True Masquerade....

Love through our external relationships will always have conditions and "may possibly" not last foever if not met. However, our relationship with ourselves is the most important one of all. We can't simply leave ourselves. We have no choice for our own well being but to learn to love ourselves unconditional. The good and the bad.

If one learns to love oneself, "they will never be or feel alone". Also, if we set reasonable realistic expectations and conditions on ourselves, for the good of our own well being, our relationships with others will benefit as well.

Maybe learning to love one's trueself is more difficult for some, but very doable if the work is put into it.

OK

-- Thu Jan 05, 2012 1:04 pm --

Black widow wrote: You can love a person unconditionally but have conditional relationships.

Black Widow wrote: On the other hand, a relationship without conditions or boundaries is abusive.

Sounds kind of contridictory don't you think.

I guess it's how you personally define "unconditional" or how you define "your personal conditions and boundries". I think we all have our personal limits of what we will tolerate, don't you think?

by **xdude** » Thu Jan 05, 2012 1:36 pm

Black Widow wrote:You can love a person unconditionally but have conditional relationships. I think it is the right way to go around.
I don't think loving a person conditionally is love at all. It is like saying that you love a chocolate cake, but don't like chocolate, and hope it would be vanilla.

I have to admit that I don't exactly know what it means to love a person unconditionally, not even myself, because as you wrote, 'It is like saying that you love a chocolate cake, but don't like chocolate, and hope it would be vanilla.'

However OK is correct, we are stuck with ourselves, every moment, but note OK also wrote, 'very doable if the work is put into it'

The notion of 'unconditional' is just too black and white for me, a red-flag. There are aspects of myself I love, and other aspects I want to grow/change, even if that change is just coming to accept something about myself that I cannot, it's a change. I suppose it's true to say though that despite my want to grow/change in ways, that there is an under-current of love for who I am. That under-current though doesn't mean I want to stop changing.

There is a half-joking saying, something like 'The definition of insanity is to repeat the same mistake over again endlessly, expecting a different outcome'. It's doubtful anyone would conclude 'if you love yourself, keep on banging your head against the wall, self-loathing and all'

There is a question over in the relationship forum right now, something like 'Can two people love each other equally?' The real problem is not the lack of answers, it's that the question is flawed. Nobody can measure what it means to be "equal". I'm sure the author of the question had/has a picture in his/her head of what they meant when they wrote the question, but when really asked what is meant, not even the author is sure what they mean.

In the same way, we toss the words 'unconditional love' around easily, and people may have some image in their head of what that means, but often we people confuse the words we use to describe thoughts/feelings, with the reality of how we really think/feel.

When I was a child, the world seemed much simpler. The difference between the real world and a cartoon, or a story book was not much different at all. Everything painted in simple imagery, simple stories in my head. In that child-like world I clung too many beliefs/assumptions made total sense. Perfect un-conditional love was possible no different than in a cartoon where the hero saves the heroin, where the two live happily ever after. That seemed like some absolute truth to me when I was a child. Except that the characters in cartoons had no depth beyond the thickness of a piece of film. The cartoon world was safe, simple, but no depth. Embracing the real world, the real us, the depth of who we are required I also let go of the child-like fantasy world I believed in as child.

by **okherewego212** » Thu Jan 05, 2012 1:55 pm

I thought the below article is interesting: It is explains the thoughts related to "unconditional' and may answer some of the questions we have.

IE: Unconditional love vs Unconditional relationships. I believe that is the grey area and distinction we are thinking of. We may end a relationship, but we can continue to love someone forever? Is this obsessive love or Is that unconditional love? I suppose that question relates to who the person was and the reason for the relationship failing. See the below article : it does a good job of explaining and assisting with the questions about what is meant by "unconditional" vs "conditional" (relationships or love and the combo there of).

Do You Believe in Unconditional Love?

The difference between unconditional love and unconditional relationships.
Published on July 6, 2011 by Jeremy Nicholson, M.S.W., Ph.D. in The Attraction Doctor
Welcome back to The Attraction Doctor:

Do you believe in unconditional love?

I am asked this question frequently in discussions... When I respond with a "yes", my questioners are usually puzzled. They wonder how I can believe in unconditional love, yet discuss very "conditional" dating and relating techniques such as reciprocal gift-giving, withholding forgiveness, rewarding a partner, etc. After all, they assume, if you love someone unconditionally and truly bond with them, then you don't ever try to influence, limit, persuade, or set boundaries with them...right?

Their confusion over my beliefs and relationship advice is the result of their missing an important distinction. I'm going to share that distinction with you all now. It will help you to both truly enjoy unconditional love and develop healthy relationships.

Unconditional Love and Unconditional Relationships
Love is very important. When you find someone through dating and relating who loves you for "who you are", it is an amazing experience. Similarly, it is rewarding to love someone else "as they are" (or "warts and all" as my grandmother would say). I believe that such a bond is priceless and should be nurtured with great affection. Love is part of our emotions, attachment chemicals in the brain (for those inclined), and spirit (for those inclined).

Relationships, however, are an entirely different thing. Relationships are working partnerships. They involve thoughts, reasons, and decisions. They require two (or more) individuals in communication, commitment, and cooperative exchange.

As a result, love (feelings) and relationships (decisions) can have separate rules and expectations. Love, because it is a feeling, can be unconditional. Sometimes, no matter what a partner does, feelings toward them do not change. Relationships, however, are working partnerships. As such, they require conditions, boundaries, limits, and directions to run smoothly.

Therefore, a distinction must be made between "unconditional love"...and "unconditional relationships".

But, Isn't Love Enough?
Now that we have made the distinction between "unconditional love" and "unconditional relationships", it is possible to love someone without limit, yet still have contingencies placed upon continuing a relationship with them. In other words, while you may continue to love a partner "no matter what", you may not choose to be in a relationship with them under all conditions. This distinction is important to understand. But, it doesn't hold for everyone...

There are some individuals that say, "no, love is enough". These individuals decide, as long as they have love, nothing else is necessary. As a result, their relationships become "unconditional" as well. They do not set firm boundaries, contingencies, or limits with their "partner". They make "relationship" decisions based on their feelings of love alone. Sometimes this works out... Other times, however, because no one is actively creating a working "partnership", disaster can strike. Furthermore, because there is an expectation to "accept the partner for who he/she is" at all times, relationships may perpetuate under the worst of conditions.

On the other hand, the distinction between love and relationships is upheld with individuals that say "healthy relationships are necessary too". These individuals love their partners unconditionally, but also set rules that maintain a relationship with them. They use influence, limits, and contingencies to ensure a balanced, equitable exchange in their romantic partnerships. Furthermore, while they may continue to "feel" love unconditionally, they also chose to end unhealthy partnerships when the conditions for them are no longer feasible.

What This Means For Your Love Life
The dating task is very different for those who say "yes" or "no" to the question..."is unconditional love enough"?

For those who say "love is all I need" - Your task in dating is to select the "right" person...because that may be the only time you have influence over the health of the impending relationship. Once you choose and fall in love, you will then make keeping that love the highest priority. As a result, your relationship will most likely become "unconditional" - and your partner will ultimately be free to behave as he/she chooses without repercussion. So, pick wisely. Find someone who will "do right by you" for all time. Make sure they are upstanding, conscientious, and love you very deeply in return (see here). Otherwise, you may find yourself in a very unhealthy relationship, with little recourse to fix it.

For those who say "working partnerships are important too" - Your task in dating is to learn to set boundaries, limits, and contingencies to maintain a healthy relationship. Your task is to also use your influence in a caring and disciplined manner to create a balanced exchange with your dating partner. Such skills are not exercised to "control" or "manipulate" for selfish gain, but rather to maintain a mutually-beneficial and satisfying partnership (see here, here, and here). However, because your relationships will be more "conditional", personality differences can continue to be worked through after you pick a partner and fall in love. Unhealthy relationships can be remedied (or, in unfortunate situations dissolved), rather than simply endured. Nevertheless, there are few things more painful in life than choosing to leave an unhealthy relationship with someone you unconditionally love. So, picking someone you can "work with" is still an important idea.

Conclusion
Today we have made an important dating distinction between "unconditional love" and "unconditional relationships"...

For those who place love above all, there is little distinction between those two concepts. Both their love and their relationships are ultimately unconditional. This merger makes identification and selection of a conscientious partner of the utmost importance.

However, for those who equally value working partnerships with love, there is a wide distinction between the two concepts. Love can be felt unconditionally, while still maintaining conditional requirements for the partnership. This separation allows for more flexibility to both experience love and use influence to create healthy exchanges. For these individuals, a disciplined knowledge of negotiation, boundary-setting, influence, and persuasion can be invaluable.

I hope this clears up the confusion. I also hope you choose whichever path is right for you. I will continue to provide advice and assistance to both groups as time goes on. Stay tuned!

by **xdude** » Thu Jan 05, 2012 2:34 pm

OK -

It is ironic. Look at how many NONs have ended up on this forum, who have long lists of feeling hurt by their EXes, yet still feel "love" for them. Is that love? Or is that an obsession? I don't know.

But yes, one can have an under-current, a feeling of love that persists, despite everything, yet that doesn't mean we all don't have boundaries, limits, and so on.

There is the matter though of ambivalence. Mixed feelings. To have both feelings of love for someone and at the same time, dislike other aspects of who they are. For someone with black and white feelings, I guess that seems impossible. But the ambivalent type of 'love you, love lots of things about you, but I can't live with (and odds are nor could anyone else!)...' is the only kind of unconditional love I know.

A thought -

Is it better to cling to a belief in 'pure' perfect unconditional black & white love of a fantasy image of others that nobody can ever live up to?

or...

Is it better to love someone, conditionally, for who they really are, faults and all?

It is of course a rhetorical question.

by **Black Widow** » Thu Jan 05, 2012 2:58 pm

^^
Good article

xdude wrote: In that child-like world I clung too many beliefs/assumptions made total sense. Perfect un-conditional love was possible no different than in a cartoon where the hero saves the heroin, where the two live happily ever after. That seemed like some absolute truth to me when I was a child.

You mean I was mislead all this time??? :shock:

You have a good point, xdude, about allowing for change. When I say unconditional love, I allow for reasonable changes according to nature. But without expecting a specific change.
My analogy was not perfect because it is lifeless.

But let's take a tree.
You know the tree will grow, get more branches and maybe loose leaves once in awhile. The roots will reach out in the ground as well.
Loving the tree unconditionally would mean that you know what a tree is and you expect some changes, but not exactly which ones. Like you cannot predict how many branches, or exactly where the roots will go. But you should have a pretty fair idea what will happen generally speaking. So you will love the tree no matter how many branches and so on.
Of course if the tree was to become a rock, that would be something else. :lol:

Assuming it is possible, of course.

But a danger is to love the tree like someone likes a bonzai. Try to control every little growth and cut those sprouts that you do not like, or because you want it to divide the tree in two. Or just expect the tree to not grow. So there is like you said, some underlying love of the tree as a tree, and that was what I was talking about. :wink:

by **okherewego212** » Thu Jan 05, 2012 3:08 pm

Xdude:

I believe our relationships have conditions.

I am more inclined to be the type of person below, mentioned in the article:

"However, for those who equally value working partnerships with love, there is a wide distinction between the two concepts. Love can be felt unconditionally, while still maintaining conditional requirements for the partnership. This separation allows for more flexibility to both experience love and use influence to create healthy exchanges. For these individuals, a disciplined knowledge of negotiation, boundary-setting, influence, and persuasion can be invaluable".

I don't believe in the quote below though. (Re: Unconditional love/Unconditional relationship option) I think it sounds too "pie in the sky for me", and opens oneself up to be abused. It doesn't sound like there is chance in making it work or making it balanced. It sounds too perfect and we all know, no one is perfect. Basing it all on trying to find someone perfect and hoping the relationship will be successful on that, would be too risky??? Sounds like a co-dependent relationship to me? No individuality and no reality. It would be so rare. I am not sure it exists, as it sounds too ideal.? To bad though! lol

"For those who say "love is all I need" - Your task in dating is to select the "right" person...because that may be the only time you have influence over the health of the impending relationship. Once you choose and fall in love, you will then make keeping that love the highest priority. As a result, your relationship will most likely become "unconditional" - and your partner will ultimately be free to behave as he/she chooses without repercussion. So, pick wisely"

__________________________________________________________________________________

Xdude wrote: It is ironic. Look at how many NONs have ended up on this forum, who have long lists of feeling hurt by their EXes, yet still feel "love" for them. Is that love? Or is that an obsession? I don't know.

I also believe if we value ourselves, self worth and are truely healthy, we can live without poeple we onced loved, but that became toxic. I also believe we can get over our love for them in a more healthy manner without obsessing. If you love yourself and hold your own worth, you never feel alone, or feel you "need" to be in a relationship. Your in a relationship, because you choose to be only. Love in itself, is not enough.

However, I do believe we can continue to love someone we once had a relationship with, even though the intimate romantic relationship ended. Just a different type of love. As in friendship love. Most of my past relationship ended amicably and we remained friends. Our relationship just didn't work out as partners. That's all. They were still "good" people. We just weren't meant for each other, in an intimate partnership.

My thoughts anyway..

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