Do HPD's really love?

yYyYy you said

orion, we are human too, we do get hurt too,

so you mean you'll not get angry if someone says to your face

'Love is founded on empathy, intimacy, emotional maturity, altruism and reciprocation. orion8591 is incapable of these human emotional qualities and capabilities. His extreme egocentricity prevents him from engaging in true altruistic consideration for others; thereby locking out any ability for truly loving another human being.

Thus, orion8591 is incapable of true love of another human being.'


uh? he just said 'you are a monster!' in a longer sentence!

You have misunderstood Orion's stance on this. Please, for a minute, try not to be so triggered. Please read again his last post to you in which he said

yYyYy

Old posts are ok. It's how you present the material. For example, instead of posting up a thread

"We do have empathy, Nons are idiots!,"

instead consider this one

"How I experience empathy as an HPD, and why I think Nons don't understand it."

Note the red Forum Rules advisory at the top of your screen:

He is suggesting that, instead of responding to GHIGGS by saying

you are wrong and that logic is stupid. the author just wants to justify the fact that he can't be loved by an hpd individual.
as far as i remember i was far much sweeter/empathetic/kind kid than most around me
and as long as my child self is alive inside me i believe i am capable of love

that you could perhaps have responded differently by telling GHIGGS in detail how you perceive and experience empathy, and how things are from your perspective. By doing this, you are presenting your case and allowing others to see things from your perspective. This provides education and more understanding than can be gained from studying the disorder purely from a textbook perspective. I can see that you feel hurt, and that of course you're not a monster, but if you could perhaps explain your perspective based upon your own experiences, others would gain more clarity and more understanding of the disorder.

To both nons and HPDs here, nothing is black and white, and there are no textbook cases. As Orion said, nothing can be gained by misunderstandings leading to defensiveness. True understanding can only come from respectful communication.

I'm not sure 'incapable' (absolute) is correct, at least not always. It's really more about matter of degree, and reliability when the chips are down. All of us struggle to varying degrees with balancing our own interests and point of view (which we're strongly driven by) with others. We just expect a greater degree of empathy from our lovers, parents, friends, etc., then we do from strangers, and we expect that empathy to generally hold up even when our significant others are not feeling so great; and vice versa.

I think what you see more with HPD is related to both their experiences with love (or lack of), their personality to a degree*, and black and white thinking/feelings that results in strong swings of emotion (that in turn breaks the 'reliability' expectation).

*I wrote personality, because even among NONs it appears people are more or less self/other centered, harsh/gentle, flamboyant/reserved, strong-willed/flexible, etc. How quickly/easily someone is inclined to be especially empathetic (not just in feeling, but in consistent action) toward a lover varies from person to person.

The black/white feelings are problematic because the person with HPD can all too quickly swing into extremes like 'Nobody loves me', 'You never loved me', 'Random person X I just met is so amazing!', etc. These extremes often violate our expectation of reliability, either because we are devalued, or random people are over valued (leading to a sense that 'love' is meaningless to someone to HPD, just a feeling without substance).

So I do think (at least some) people with HPD are capable of both wanting love, and being empathetic even. The problem is more with reliability of empathy, a key expectation that the person with HPD both wants, but is often unable to give back themselves.

You know for most of us, even if someone treats you great 100 days out of the year, if every 101st they punch you in the face over nothing, it's that 101st day that will stand out the next 100. Relationships can handle a certain degree and frequency of emotional blows, moments when a lover lacks empathy, but if it happens frequently, or the severity of betrayal is too severe, the natural reaction most of us have is to lose trust, and reciprocal empathy. Perhaps to someone with HPD though, NON's make no sense? What I mean is -

For someone with HPD, again black and white feelings may be at play. They may be able to forget those moments of real/perceived* lack of empathy entirely, even entirely forgive, put it out of their mind. They may not grasp why others, if they really love them, cannot do the same. The may feel this means they love 'more' than others, since they can feel love regardless of a real/perceived past wrong. Perhaps that's what they grew up with. They may not understand that's not how the majority thinks. That love is the ability to trust someone over the long haul, and that any little emotional wind doesn't cause their lover to violate that trust. We don't want you running away and coming back because you had a bad day, or someone else popped up on the radar, treating us as valueless or as if the relationship has 0 value. We want to know we can trust you to be empathetic in-spite of having a bad day, in-spite of whatever shiny bauble of a person passes in front of one's eyes. We cannot give that kind of reliable trust, reliable empathy, to someone who cannot be equally reliable.

*And again black/white feelings are at play, because unfortunately for someone with black/white feelings, it's also all too easy to perceive malice/lack-of-caring where none was intended. An expectation from others that nobody can live up too, so even if one is very empathetic, one way or another failure is inevitable, and with that, a downward spiral into being devalued. In the end it all comes back to the same old message. Until the person with HPD really addresses their core hurt, heals their self-esteem issues, they'll likely sabotage love, no matter that others do try to love them to the best of any humans capability. Nobody will ever live up to the idealized love though, nor does the person with HPD. In a sense though, the inability to let go, to seek out healing, the insistence there is nothing wrong, can feel like stubbornness extraordinaire to NONs. From that point of view, I suppose it can seem like an utter lack of empathy is behind it all.

I'd like to believe they do love. But like just like an alcoholic loves his/hher family, their addictions (if you will) trump everything. So for the hpd their black hole of insecurities, their need for drama and crisis, their need to make it all about them--come first. I believe they care deeply and are desperate to be cared for by others. But their needs are left unfulfilled because of the (self) sabotaging way they go about trying to get what they need.

That's an interesting analogy, to compare it to an addiction. It's an interesting way of looking at it. HPDs are not psychopaths, and are not born with an inability to love. The way in which it is expressed and felt may be somewhat compromised and affected by their first experiences of "love" and without an adequate model, this could affect all their subsequent interactions with others.

But their needs are left unfulfilled because of the (self) sabotaging way they go about trying to get what they need.

I think you have it there in a nutshell.

At the root of all their insecurities, a person with HPD will have a deep need to be loved, a need that wasn't met by their caregivers in many cases, and yet in their quest for love, they may sabotage their relationships, creating a cycle in which the yearning for love becomes deeper, and yet is always unfulfilled.

orion8591 wrote:GHIGGS
At least some HPD's (Appeasing, Infantile, etc) apparently have greater amounts of empathy, and thus a greater capacity to love. Not all HPD's have a narcissistic dimension. This is demonstrated by my fellow moderator, Masquerade, who has made a tremendous recovery. If you are angry over a personal experience with a more anti-social variety of HPD, please specify that.

OTHER HPD
At least some HPD's (Disingenuous, Vivacious, etc.) apparently have lesser amounts of empathy, and a reduced capability to love. This is well documented in the professional literature, as well as described or demonstrated by various HPD's who have visited this forum. Please do not be triggered by some one else's description of their personal experience - they are not writing about you.

[edited for harmony]

You're right: SOME HPD's APPARENTLY have lesser amounts of empathy.

By the way, yes we do really love. Again, let me turn your attention to page one for the answers assuming whoever is reading this at this stage in the thread is actually still looking for the answer to the question.

orion8591 wrote:Ghiggs

Brilliant post, a bull's eye for the Disingen and Vivacious HPD subtypes.

Do you think it is different for the 'softer', less severe subtypes (Appeasing, infantile, etc.)

The Appeasing HPD subtype vs. the Disingen / Vivacious HPD, for example, reminds me of the covert / overt NPD dichotomy.

To answer your question, I would have to say no because the Histrionic Personality Disordered Individual (HPDI) is a variant of narcissist. At their core, the HPDI is disconnected from themselves. They are impaired when it comes to their sense of Self. They need validation from others to define their existence. Their lability is regulated upon their ability to secure supply from their immediate environment. Remember, they will modify and adjust their affect to interact with those they seek attention from.

Certain people are not as assertive with their personality as others. However, they still do what they can to secure supply. The Appeasing/Infantile subtype uses this modus operandi to appear less threatening or imposing upon their targets. However, like all HPDI's they have a proficient facility for interpersonal manipulation. They access your emotions and attempt to manipulate you with passive-aggressive manipulation in order to get what they want. This is done at YOUR expense. They have no difficulty applying this methodology despite its exploitative means and effect it has on their target.

In fact, the "Softer" archetype is actually more sophisticated in their methodology as they will leave you feeling rather magnanimous and in control of the interaction. Stroking your ego in this way is more subtle and sophisticated as they present themselves as benign and of no threat to you; thereby conditioning you to future manipulation and exploitation.

You must remember, regardless of the manner in which they engage you, the pathology is still the same as they are feeding off you and manipulating you. You are NOT a true person to them so much as a representation of supply for them. (Sort of like a human Cornucopia Horn of Plenty filled with supply.) Basically, they are role-players and will adapt to whomever they interact with in the manner works which best with that particular target individual.

I am not convinced they are more empathic than other archetypes so much as I believe they are more sophisticated in applying their respective manipulations to facilitate their exploitation. It is my opinion they have a higher and more accurate perception of human behavior and so have developed a more sensitive and accurate facility to mimic personal affect. They can mimic human emotional behavior in a more asymptotically accurate approximation than others and so APPEAR more empathic than others when in my opinion they are just better actors and better skilled at interpersonal manipulation.

Perhaps they don't have such a severe degree of impairment on certain developmental facets of their disorder or perhaps their socialization has imprinted a higher degree of social observance of personal behavior. At their core, they are still disconnected from their Self and so they can't really form a true connection with others. You will know this by the sense of emptiness and deficiency within the relationship.

These childlike personas are indicative of their emotional under development. In my personal experience with an Infantile HPDI, I experienced intense frustration and anger as I looked at an adult and couldn't engage them as such as they were perpetually frozen in the behavior of a 5 year old child. The sense of manipulation was palpable as I had ever increasing difficulty getting anything productive accomplished. The relationship inevitably collapsed due to this particular dynamic.

In my case, the emotional disruption felt just as detrimentally abusive as the other more "Severe" subtypes. She became demanding and incorrigible as a child with an ever-increasingly irritating demeanor. I felt drained and severely weakened up until and well after the rupture of the relationship. So I can personally attest to the fact the Infantile persona is just as deleterious as the other sub-types.

It should also be noted, HPDI's engage in this behavior to wear you down until you are defeated or conditioned to give in to their demands for attention. The relationship becomes a "War of Attrition" as your own psychological defenses are laid siege and eventually broken down to the point where you are not able to defend your own self-esteem and they engulf you.

Try to imagine you yourself as a whole person, the HPDI will come along and hijack your body while striking off your head or mentally/emotionally lobotomizing you; while installing their own mind in your head and you then become a body with their mind inside it. This is the control they seek.

If you resist, they will become more demanding and emotionally abusive as children, (Silent treatment, emotionally withholding, oppositionally defiant, passive-aggressive, verbally abusive/sadistic, extortionistic, confabulationist, manipulative and basically impossible). This is done as a punishment for not conforming to their emotional tyrrany and surrendering your Self to them. The cruelty of children is well documented. This is what one can expect from the HPDI.

However, the HPDI is also a dependent personality. They seek to stay in the protective safety and security of childhood. They will eschew responsibilities and all other accoutrements of adulthood and defer them to their partner. This frees them up to play "Barbie and Ken" and live a carefree lifestyle. So they will behave in a childlike manner as if you were some "Daddy" figure and pay the rent/mortgage, utilities, grocery bills and anything else that needs mature supervision and management.

As this dynamic continues, the HPDI will demand more from you until they have sufficient control of the relationship and have established a one-way conduit of narcissistic supply from you to them. The moment you try to interrupt this, they will react in outrage and tantrum to discourage you. If you are resolute, they will destroy the relationship out of spite and anger and move on to another source of supply (Quite often, already prearranged).

I hope this was a satisfactory contribution to your question.


















I hope this shed some more light on the HPDI.

To answer this question briefly myself as it's been expressed so well already, is that yes HPDs can love but it is their own idealized brand of it.

They think it should be blind and untouchable by any deed. Then it has a double standard applied.

So the non must love and supply them no matter what they do or say, be perfect. The non must show love entirely without applying any reason or restriction to it...it must be completely unconditional, even if the conditions that would apply would spare hurt or be healthy for the non and therefore the relationship as a whole.
However they are free to apply their own conditions that may often make perfect sense, it's just that way of loving them is not allowed by the partner. My way or the highway.

I imagine this is a straight up narcissistic trait that underlies HPD. If you love me you'll worship me no matter what, and I'll give back (after I've indulged).
Unfortunately anyone who worships another and puts themself aside are seen as (rightly) weak and therein lies the dissonance leading to devaluation.

Anyone who does keep full boundaries and won't fall fully for the game are chased until they do or given up after a while for a new supplier.


It's a tragic circle.

As to your response on "Love" and HPDI's "Loving in a different way..." I would disagree with you. As Sam Vaknin quotes;

"The Narcissist is from a different emotional species and is NOT human." as we define humans by requisite human qualities such as Empathy, Intimacy, Trust, Compassion, Altruism, Sincerity (See "Traits of Human Consciousness" by Roy Posner)

So when you say "HPDI's love in a different way" I would have to disagree. I disagree because the HPDI like all other Personality Disordered perceives others as primarily adversarial. "Me against Them" The HPDI is a variant of narcissist and so is primarily self-serving. Their chaotic emotionality and disordered thinking is always at odds against their partner. As I mentioned in my earlier post, there is a sort of "Quiet War" engaged between the HPDI and the Non-Disordered individual. The HPDI lays siege to your own psychological and emotional defenses and begins a War of Attrition to wear and break down your Self-Esteem and personal boundaries until you are defenseless or have surrendered.

Like all the Cluster-B maladaptions, control is a primary goal in every relationship dynamic. As you define "HPD Love" Others would call "Brainwashing" or "Programming". Love is felt and projected by free will and is self perpetuated. HPD Love is more like the "Blind Obedience" often seen in cults. This is not true love so much as devotional subservience to the HPDI.

HPD Love is not restorative because there is nothing being returned to the Non-Disordered partner. There is no Reciprocation. Love is a sharing communion for both partners which is mutually satisfying. HPD Love cannot do that. It is distorted and altered. Dysfunctional and eventually painful. Love is not supposed to hurt others. HPD Love hurts others.

Once one gets sucked into the Black Hole Whirlpool Vortex of the HPDI/Narcissistic paradigm, there is no escape. The HPDI/Narcissist Never Gives Back! That's not love, it's parasitic exploitation!

Additionally, the HPDI is distorted and mercurial in their nature. If you resist them and don't surrender yourself to their manipulations and emotional tyranny, they will punish you by devaluing you as being "Too Much Trouble" and move on. If you do abdicate your Self and willingly become the slave/sycophant they wish to to be so they can use/abuse they will eventually lose respect for you and view you with contempt and then devalue you and discard you anyway. Hence, Like all Cluster-B maladaptions, healthy relationships are primarily doomed to failure.

Remember, the Narcissist cannot truly love others! They mimic love behavior but they have no point of self reference of this emotion because they are disconnected from their true Self. Just as a woman who fakes orgasm during intercourse, they do not experience the orgasmic reflex they wish to project to their partner.

They loath themselves and so idealize and identify with the False-Self Image they present and project to you and the world. The HPDI is a variant of Narcissist. Love is based on mutual trust and honesty. The very fact the HPDI/Narcissist presents a False-Self to you is a profound lie! You are not engaging with the true person. No true, healthy love relationship can be built on a foundation of dishonesty and deception.

Another liability of the HPDI like all narcissistic maladaptions is their fear and aversion to true intimacy. The closer you try to get to the HPDI, the more mercurial they will react and ultimately sabotage the relationship with "Dys-intimate" responses or reactions. One of the major signs of HPDI and all the Cluster-B maladaptions is an inability formulate and maintain long term healthy relationships.

Hence the trauma of the non-disordered individual when they experience the Devaluation/Discarding of the HPDI and see them immediately engage another partner. True Love is an enduring personal connection. Such as the love between a couple married for 50 years separated by death. The surviving partner still loves their deceased partner and mourns the loss. Or the mother who suddenly feels the loss of a fallen son in battle on the other side of the world. Or the twin who suddenly feels the pain of their sibling going through an emotional break-up with a love partner. True love has its own kinetic inertia and does not immediately stop when a relationship is terminated.

What HPDI's and other narcissists experience is not love. When they disengage from you and terminate the relationship they had with you, they will not mourn your loss as they were never truly connected to you in the first place on any meaningful interpersonal level. They are disconnected from themselves, hence, they cannot form a viable healthy connection with you. What they call a love connection is in fact dependency.

What Cluster-B's experience is intensity rather than true love. For instance, the Honeymoon Period of any new relationship. This period is fraught with intense stimulation as a result of surging neuro-compounds such as endorphins and oxytocin which imbue a state of euphoria, pleasure and stimulation. This is mistaken by the disordered as love.

When the "First Flush" of infatuation has passed and the high of these neuro-compounds has worn off, the personality disordered individual becomes disillusioned and eventually "Falls out of love" and devalues you.

It is important to remember, the HPDI is an addict. They need supply and attention to feel normal. The person that loved them has not changed. Rather, it is the HPDI's new perception and response to that individual that has changed. The intensity of new lust and love is the heroin for the HPDI. And let's not forget the HPDI's primary vehicle for acquiring supply is through sexual adventurism. The HPDI uses their sexuality as their primary tool to engage and interact with others.

I would be very interested to hear a Histrionic describe what they perceive as "True Love" since most HPDI's are not very cognitive to begin with.

Remarkable post again. Thankyou for the effort.


I would like to hear from the Histrionics of the board too inresponse to the points you have brought up. I think it would help everyone understand more why the LTR dynamics seem to consistently break down and there are so many similar stories posted on this board from nons and non-nons alike. It may be triggering but beneficial.

Thanks everyone. this sounds just like "my Jennie".