Authenticity of Self

Hi Musician,

Thanks for the response. I too tried this with my X and was also unaware of HPD at the time and I could never break through the dysfunction. When I tried to point out the consequences of my X’s behavior I was met with unrelenting anger and resistance. I know that I am not making my point well but what I’m trying to say is that Dr. Bochner’s suggests an alternative approach based upon his proposition that the cause of the HPD’s unwillingness to accept responsibility is because of their subconscious guilt of causing parental conflicts and that:

The Histrionic cannot stand the idea that they have caused pain in someone else. That one factor has led to the creation of their whole personality. It is their own pain they are avoiding, and actually holding the idea that they are creating pain, makes them go haywire. They do not want any pain that has been caused to be their fault because it brings them back to the original and damning vulnerability that they are the cause of the pain that made conflict between their parents. So, if someone who they feel is dear to them will not remit in stating that they feel hurt because of something the Histrionic has done, the Histrionic will break their own facade. They will take responsibility and apologize. When this is done, they get one minute step closer to becoming a person who can take responsibility.

I have a pretty tough skin so I didn’t focus on “how much you have hurt me” although his article states:

There is really only one way to directly effect change in the Histrionic. When the Histrionic's behavior has been hurtful, the hurt must be stated in such a way that the Histrionic is unable to deny the effect of their actions.

I am just questioning whether this approach may have had better results and if anyone has tried this and achieved any modicum of success.

Thanks,

Agent

Well, to me the disorder is like an addiction. I think they need to hit a real low before they seek help or take responsibilty.

That "low" being lack of attention they so desire, for an extented time. Almost going into a depression , spending forced time alone, thus being forced to see thier own pain.... thus possibly going to therapy or seeking change.

My understanding, is that usually happens when they are about to loose a relationship, that means something to them. They may make an attempt to take reponsibility to save it.

I assume if they care deep down for a partner and know how they hurt them, the HPD might seek help and take responsibilty in an effort to save the relationship.

You can see this is common for many of the HPD's that post here. Most are in relationships, they want to save, whether married or not. Mostly the married HPD's from what I can see. It is part of the reason they are seeking help and taking responsibilty for thier actions.

Just my opinion and assume it is the exception and not the rule, as many HPDs' have no clue they have anything wrong with them. It is everyone elses fault. They might just say they take responsibilty, to tell thier partner what they want to hear, with no real meaning behind it.

When I mentioned it to my ex and how she hurt me, she threatened me with stalking, lied her ass off and blamed everything on me. Obviously she was not ready to face her responsibility for causing the pain, and in complete denial. She had not hit a low and had lots of supply.

Just my opinion.

HPD's on here ,may better explain, what made them seek help or caused them to start taking responsibilty for thier actions in causing pain to thier significant others and what effected them to seek change.

C&H.

The first step in recognising that a problem exists is to experience a problem, that is to hit rock bottom. Too often, the significant others of a disordered person will subconsciously enable the sufferer and the pattern will continue. Once a hisrionic realises that all supplies have been cut off, he or she will be forced to assess the situation. Of course, there can be a real possibility of suicidal ideation, possibly followed by actual acts and in these cases medical help should always be sought.

During the process of intensive therapy, the sufferer is not in a position to feel much empathy for she is immersed in her own issues, and this is a necessary part of the recovery process. The thoughts, feelings, anger and helplessness relating to childhood stressors must be worked through and this can be a long and delicate process. The carer is in a difficult position at this time, for they need to offer support, but often bear the brunt of all the negative emotions the sufferer is experiencing. lt is important that the carers seek support and maybe therapy for THEMSELVES at this time.

As the therapy progresses and the sufferer gains more insight into the processes of her own psyche, the therapist can gently challenge the faulty thought proccesses, opinions and emotional expression of the sufferer and together they can explore more aqppropriate modes of expression. lt is a very gradual process with no overnight miracles or insights, and the changes occur so subtly that they cannot easily be recognised. When such changes are apparent, it is important that the carers and therapist express praise and positive re inforcement. Only when one is more fully coherent can empathy be experienced.

In my case, l cannot pinpoint a definite time when l noticed a change, but there did come a point in my recovery when l was forced to face up to the consequences of my actions. This at first was expressed very dramatically and in true HPD fashion, but as time progressed and my thought processes became less black and white, l assimilated more empathic responses into my general behaviour, and substituted guilt for remorse. Guilt forces one to remain in a negative pattern, but true remorse enables a change in behaviour, with no resulting loss of self esteem. Conversely, because of this l am more accepting of my self and my past actions, and less likely to repeat the negative self destructive patterns. However, it is often an all consuming guilt that can force a sufferer to enter therapy in the first place.

l have found myself in a very deep and dark place, and it was this "dark night of the soul" that compounded the changes within me.
Usually, to recover, a sufferer must hit their own personal rock bottom.

OP - I just wanted to thank you for posting your original post/article. it has given me some things to think about and has provided good reflection.

Thankyou.

Hi Dr. Bochner,

Thanks for your post. I’ve expressed before that I’m not conveying my point very well nor the question I’m trying to pose so I’ll try again. I’m not trying to corner you with your own words but you made a profound point in your article that I find radically different than just various experts presenting things slightly differently, specifically:

There is really only one way to directly effect change in the Histrionic. When the Histrionic's behavior has been hurtful, the hurt must be stated in such a way that the Histrionic is unable to deny the effect of their actions.

I’d like to know more. This seems like a more fundamental approach with potentially more structural results than traditionally suggested treatment such as cognitive behaviour therapy. This approach also places a lot of responsibility on the HPD’s partner to effect change but using a different focus than has been described at length on this forum of passing s%*! tests, setting boundaries ad nauseum and distancing from any emotional attachment to the person with HPD. The other implication of your approach is the reason for the person with HPD’s diminished capacity to feel empathy. I interpret from your article that you believe this is because:

They do not want any pain that has been caused to be their fault because it brings them back to the original and damning vulnerability that they are the cause of the pain that made conflict between their parents.

I find this very different than most of what I’ve read that someone with HPD will defend an assault on their “false self” or “false image” of themselves to the max rather than face a reality of inner emptiness.

While this may just be a which came first, the chicken or the egg question, it seems to me that your paradigm of the root cause of some the HPD’s maladaptive behavior’s and feelings is very much different than the mainstay to the point that someone who is trying to help someone with HPD overcome their difficulties may be more effective with a very different approach. Your viewpoint sounds much less hopeless. I think there are a lot of people on this forum, both those trying to overcome these challenges as well as those trying to help someone overcome them who would like to understand further.

Thanks again!

AGent

I have no issues with taking responsibility but what your trying to tell me is that I am the cause of my parents constant fighting growing up? My mom throwing books and crystalware across the house at my dad, and my parent's constant threats of divorce, my mom punching my dad, that crazy crazy screaming fighting where everyone is in tears crying, my mom beating me growing up, my parents lying to each other, them using us kids against each other, and so many of the ways they treated each other and us kids? what your telling me is I am the cause of all that? I just want to make sure that's what your saying, so I can add that ontop of my father starting up meth use at 19 when I dropped out of college - so I can add all that to my dad's current drug addiction, which is about to be the cause of my parent's divorce? his alcoholism problem for the last several years, and him quitting work. what your saying is all that is my fault and I'm just not willing to accept responsibility for it?

I'm just trying to figure out what it is exactly the author is saying - the lack of responsibility part in my present life I will give him. I seem to have issue with being responsible to others after they have emotionally invested in me. I don't do so hot with that. but your saying it's because I wont accept responsibility for my parent's relational issues?

I could see where that could be possible, I'm willing to entertain the idea. My dad did blame us kids for all the fighting growing up. and I do recall him constantly saying don't you kids see how your acting is affecting me quite often. (and no a 6 year old doesn't see what happens on a 20 year time frame)

You don't think the denial of responsibility is more like a learned behavior from the parents past down?

*sits and ponders... does some homework and comes back*

huh...

-------> *sighs*, which would make my previous defense to the author's conclusion true....

*sits and ponders that some more*

let's pretend I am willing to entertain that idea that I'm willing rationalize the actions of a 6 year old that causes the relational issues of 40-50 year old married couple. That belief definately changes how I act in the rest of society....

I still can't quite say I'm willing to say I should feel guilty for that though. how is a 2 year old suppose to know?

Mistaben,

I think you missed the point of the article.

It does not say the HPD is the cause of the parents problems, but it may have left the HPD to "feel" that way. Thus, the HPD feels at fault, but really aren't. It causes them great pain. Thus they don't want to take on more responsible for causing someone else's pain. I am not sure this would be the case for all HPD's. However, I do agree with you, that upbringing, learned behavior and genetics, play a big part.

In your case, you are right. You should not take responsibilty for your parents behavior, it was not your fault.

However, it can also be, that their behavior has effected you and caused you alot of pain, thus might be the cause of your HPD. Learned behavior and genetics. Thus you are unable to face anymore pain, and mask it with the HPD traits. One of those, is not taking responsiblity for your wrong behavior that effects others and why.

If you don't overcome the pain of your upbringing, you may not want to face any more pain or take responsibilty for causing hurt in someone else. In other words, you may run away from it, instead of dealing with it. Thus, you may not be able to unlearn or control your inappropiate behavior, as a result.

You have to deal with the root cause of the pain and the resulting learned behavior of your upbringing first. Then re-learn appropiate behavior, and understand where your thinking is flawed and learn to control it.

It appears you are trying to do that now. So keep it up!

Just my interpretation, as I am not expert. Just my opinion.

C&H.

So are you saying I associate great pain to taking responbility for my actions? - if that's the case I can think of a couple DISTINCT incidents that would have caused that after I turned 18 to now... when stuff I was taking responsibility for turned out... just turned out wildly wildly bad.

but yes also, I can think of a couple of definate behaviors on parent's part that definately look like a denial of responsibility issue that I have seen and still afect me today.

is this like a gross problem with an internal emotional responsibility issue?

- sorry I looked into counseling at my school and it is like 85$ an hour. which I don't have at the moment. I didn't do a phonebook search. like I said in one of my other posts i'm just looking for understanding. I would like to be able to keep friends in my life. or a normal romantic interest. that would be pretty cool someday.

Mistaben,

Yes, my understanding is part of the cause of disorders, is internalized pain you carry as a result of your upbringing, thus wish not to face more or take responsibilty as a result? That is how I interpret it.

Plus inappropiate learned behavior, from parents. Somehow, you need to face that pain and come to terms with it. Also, learn to control the flawed thinking.

Again, I am not an expert. Hopefully someone with training on here can help give you advice to work on that and how deal with it.

Can you get a part time job, to pay for therapy? Can you get medical coverage insurance cheaply through school?

To bad you can't get into therapy, as you are trying so hard.

I am sure someday, your dreams will come true. Have faith in that and don't give up on it.

C&H

Dr Ok,

First off, thanks very much for posting here. Totally understand you are constraint bound from demonstrating your techniques here with live case studies. However totally appreciate you mingling in here with so many HPD sufferers to hear them first hand, and to offer HPDers and Non’s alike such great access to your thinking and writings.

I have to be honest; I’m not following what you posted clearly.

It strikes me a bit like some of Kernberg’s writings. He writes on many levels simultaneously, and worse yet his deep meaning sometimes requires that you hold in working memory several paragraphs (or even pages). What he talks about “prior” is often only understandable from what comes “later”. If your attention slips even for a second, you can’t process his meaning. Reading twice helps, but not completely.

Kernberg always seems to write assuming the audience has a full working background in classic psychoanalytic theory, and object relations theory as his starting points. Almost like he’s addressing third year psychiatry students. On top of that he then extends the classic psychoanalytic theory and object relations concepts well beyond the basics in ways that are uniquely his. At the end of the day you need to put in significant analytical effort to dissect his writings and spend plenty of time clarifying what you lacked as a foundation, by chasing down many of his references, reading relevant portions of them, then returning to his work prepared to tackle it. However, with effort it can be done, and its very rewarding when you finally “get it”. His references are invaluable!

When talking about theories of HPD I think you would be far out in front if you explain where you are starting at vs. Kerberg, Linehan, Bollas, Millon, Benjamin, DSM4/DSM5, or even the emerging neuropsych models at NIMH. That way you could connect people with what you agree with, regarding HPD, and the collective knowledge of it that so far has been built up. Then demark your unique departure with your specific theories of how it operates and build it up from there.

I note that most of the personality theory experts are now getting pretty old - ample room for some solid fresh thinking, and fresh approaches. I’d very much agree, not all experts converge. Yet they do seem to share some major foundation blocks.

With all the current emphasis on managed care, outcome analysis and a medical model (neuroimaging, genome mapping, neuron tracing) it seems like the profession really lacks bright, new, upcoming personality theorists. No one seems to have time for it. Yet it seems like an area that is far from finished. No matter how much they know or learn about the “computer” hardware, the software functions and understanding of the full software “programs” should still be critically important.

I hear all the new psych interns are overloaded being taught the cheapest way to treat each disorder. They come out having memorized a cookbook. Totally lacking in the underlying theory they can’t deal with anything “off the standard menu.” Meanwhile what individual walking into a therapist’s office wasn’t at least 50% totally unique and off the menu?

Your stuff on responsibility development obviously struck a cord here in the HPD forum. When you say “False Self” I think narcissism. When you say BPD beneath HPD I feel like I want to see the full model (like Kernberg’s chart, Millions Styles, Benjamin’s breakdowns.)

You seem to talk about when the infant experiences themselves as the center of the universe – I equate that with not yet differentiating themselves from their mother -- seeing the two as a single unit. Am I way off track? Were you talking about HPD/BPD developing at that 0-1 stage wouldn’t “everything after” like incest, physical and emotional abuse, or utter neglect at ages 2-8 not count at all in developing the disorder?

..so confusion abounds in my head.

If you are coming at this from a family therapy or dyad type analysis that might explain my ignorance. Read some cool stuff from Jurg Willi and David Schnarch, and certainly love a good genogram. But I lack any background in family therapy, social psychology, etc.

Perhaps some clinical examples (masked transcripts) from your practice would also be great?