Goodness gracious, Wisdom!! You have given me so much to look at. I am so thankful to have you. You are patient; something I don't often recognize in others.
wisdom wrote:Sans,
On to reflecting back on some of your posts, to search out patterns, “states of mind” to be labeled, stuff to probe in therapy, etc. Caution, I’m going to press hard at times in here, and its all speculative, so don’t be afraid to skip reading this if you feel too “vulnerable”, are in a horrible mood, etc. Trying to “harp” on some recurrent themes that seem to be evolving.
I can’t tell you how hard this is to “regulate in the delivery” w/o having in-person body language and “vibes” as real time feedback. Forgive me if I’m too blunt in some areas, and seem to “dance around” too much in others. Hopefully overall a few nuggets can be gleaned out of the entire pile…
I don't think you could be "too blunt" to me. I take what you say and really consider it. It helps me because I don't doubt your genuine desire to help me.
Here on this Form and in psychology we can’t be pushing any specific religious ideology, however I would be interested in what makes you the type of person “who could never get into it”? If that ended up being a deep down inside feeling “I’m not good enough” I’d certainly want to challenge that strictly within the domain of psychology (and perhaps point out to you that most religions don’t demand perfection either...)
It has nothing to do with being good enough to be into religion. It has more to do with my beliefs in a God. A singular, omnipotent being that can judge and forgive and determine your fate. I use to believe but as I grew older, I found it increasingly difficult. I more look at it now as a Chaos control theory. Having a God to fear has kept the chaos in this world down. Imagine how the world would be if all those who fear eternal damnation.. didn't!
You're right though. I do want someone to tell me what to do - but I want them to basically tell me what I want is the right thing.
Yikes – you seem to want a “yes-man”, yet someone who is 100% honest?
Yep. Can you do that for me?
Know what I mean?
No, not really…would love a paragraph here. Seems like a very complex feeling/logic inside you.
I just don't have the confidence to do the things I want always. I want to do them, but then I worry how I'm perceived by others. I want someone to tell me what to do but have it be what I wanted to begin with.. That way I know my own desires are ok.
I don't have enough self-confidence in my own decisions and am constantly second-guessing.
Sounds like you are on a foundation of sand? It can’t feel good if you are making decisions then, later, second guessing them. Why is your self so weak, such that you don’t have lasting confidence in your prior decisions?
Idk. Over protective mother who never let me make a decision? Even when I wanted to she would tell me no or try to tell me its not really what I wanted. She had other motives (keeping me safe from a jailed father who promised to get out, find and steal me from her so she'd never have me again!) but it still never let me develop my own sense of self.
I worry that I did the wrong thing [like what?] at the wrong time.
Wrong time? Why was it the “wrong time”? Look deeply at anything that felt OK “at the time” but later “felt wrong”. Get in there and define the “state of mind” you were in when the wrong decision was made. Then look at the “state of mine” afterwords, when you felt the prior decisions you made were wrong. Wrong back then, why? Why OK back then, but wrong now…. switch frames of mind back and forth a few times and see how you feel.
I doubt even almost immediately. For example, I'll send a text message to someone that I think I'm being cute and coy. But after I've sent it, I immediately want to take it back. It feels like.. Maybe it wasn't perfect enough. Oh I should have said this! I pushed too hard. I should ignore them for a few mins so as to not seem so desperate for them.
But, if someone else says it's right, it must be!
Are you confused inside you, as to what is right? Need you to drill deeper in here how you feel.. I strongly suspect your “ internal gyroscope” is spinning just fine.
You mean black and white/right or wrong? Because that I can do. I understand right and wrong. I meant judgement calls- greys.
The only difference in my life is that I'm slowly getting over/moving on/withdrawing a little/whatever you want to call it with the other guy. I still drive myself crazy with him and relish in the whirl wind, talk every day, see him when I can.. But it's been 6 months now and nothing is changing. I can't see myself with things the same way forever. So, it's time to do something drastic.
Lets look at the logic here.
- I’m withdrawing from him [a certain action, concrete, a fact…]
- I relish the whirlwind. [interpersonal drama, centering on me, is a narcotic for me?]
- I talk with him every day, and see him when I can. [When I decide to withdraw but then reverse that, back and forth, its oddly stimulating to me?]
- Nothing is changing.[I recognize this pattern, its happened with many other prior flings. At some point they reach "The Clash” – “Should I stay or should I go” - excitement for a while, ambivalence, move on eventually, numbness to what happened before, and just look forward to the next?]
- I can’t see myself with things [Sounds like the “other guy” has been depersonalized – “things”? That could make it easier to just “do what ya gotta do”?]
- I need to do something drastic [Ok, here is a feeling that’s ultra worth probing. What “needs” to be done? Run away? Destruct? Have a grand finale “break up” with “the other / now a thing”? Then that clears the way, (provides the OK I’m free to shop the market?) opens up “permission” for a fresh new shopping trip? Yet allows for the prior “things” to perhaps regroup, grovel their way back into your life? Finally set things straight and prove his undying love for you? (That could be a good validation boost for you, at least for a time?) What now, considering divorce?
[/list]
Why does drastic action need to be taken, at this time? Why is “now” so radically different? What is radically different such that “drastic action” most
now be taken?”
It's time
now because it can't continue on like this forever. It's too hard on ME. Call it selfish, or call it my path to normality. Therapist asked me if I would be happy 6 months or a year from now if nothing changed. F no I would not be happy. Its hard on me not seeing him more often. I was happy in the beginning just talking to him, but he's caught me more than I would like to admit and thusly, I'm not happy with minimal interactions. I get supply through texts and phone calls daily, but I crave the physicality. I think it would be easier to not have him at all than to hang out in this tortuous limbo.
He pulls other sides out in me. I am use to men who are easier to dominate, lure, get what I want. This one is different. He is essentially how Orion/TK described how to keep an HPD interested. He's dominant, but submissive. He puts out all his feelings, then pulls them back. Provides enough distance to make me question, but then closes the gap with a smooth maneuver. He has some PD, I'm sure. But it's more NPD with AsPD and Masochistic tendencies. He wants to show dominance. He rules his world and everyone in it. He is the best. Everyone else is stupid and not worth his time. Except for me. The intelligent, beautiful, wickedly twisted girl who he wishes would abuse him (his words). He has literally said that he wants to play victim in my world while he remains submissive. That I could control him if I would be more assertive. That it sexually turns him on to think of me being that way to him. He knows I have issues and he plays on them. But to be fair, I know he has issues and I play on them. Unfortunately, he's MUCH better at it than I am. I let my emotions grab me and self doubt fill my head. I find myself second guessing and worrying that he is mad at me when there is no reason. I have no doubts that he does not do this. He is the leading force but makes me do a lot of the work. We are playing power struggles.
or its time to move on, regroup, find a new one.
Is that a question that others can answer? Would you like someone outside of yourself to decide for you? ...more below
No. It was rhetoric.
Not that I feel like I want a new one…
Why not? I thought (based on the above) at least part of you seems to “relish the
whirlwind”. What part of you “relishes the whirlwind” and what part feels like “I don’t want a new one”? Reflection...study...labels...
But I thought after the last guy I wouldn't do this again and yet here I am.
The current “other guy” was supposed to be the last? After that fling then back to monogamous? Why was that one O.K.? As you were doing it (having that fling) were you feeling like you should not have? The comment “
yet here I am” seems like you have gone round and round a circle, and have recognized that you do that, yet are unable to “break the cycle” so to speak. “
I thought I wouldn’t do this again” – yet I did. What was it that you knew prior that you didn’t want to do again, yet you did? Why?
No. The last "other" was suppose to be the last. This one wasn't planned. I recognize the cycle I suppose but am unable to break it. Why? Because I suck. Because I'm empty inside. Because I need external approval to be ok.
I'm sure my husband has some co-dependency issues, but hey! He's made it 10 years with me and I'm sure he'll keep out lasting the rest.
If you could
help him resolve his co-dependency issues he would actually be a more attractive mate for you. And as he felt better about himself you too would likely “rise with the tide”. Can you “protect his backside” here, or do you find that ideally you actually feel safer when he is a bit weak? Perhaps so you feel more “essential” to him for his survival? Just throwing stuff out here…
No, you got it. I feel safer with him down a notch. That I'm important and needed. Needed = loved.
Ok- I've said this before and I'll say it again. Beware; it's not easy to hear.
Is it not easy for me to hear / understand? Or not easy for you to say and hear yourself say it?
Nope. It's not hard for me to say. I don't feel it, remember? I was attempting to be empathetic to the nons reading. Did I fail? LOL
What if the shoe was on the other foot? [My husband cheating on me…]
LOL! It wouldn't be.
I have learned over the years to manipulate him into being ok with me and my "moods"
is he OK with your direct manipulation of him, and your moods? Or does he suffer from your actions?
Most he doesn't recognize. Manipulation is best done when the other person is unaware of it. How can he suffer if he is unaware?
but he also knows better than to be out of line.
He is smarter than you, “knows better” ? Or is it you who is smarter than him / “knows better? If you “know better” yet still somehow act “out of line” does that somehow end up splattering on him, and magically become his fault?
He is smart enough to know better than to upset me or step out. Of course it all is his fault. Geez. (ok, maybe now I'm just getting frustrated again. not that I'm answering but that I don't understand all you're saying. I think.)
I set the double standards I live by.
Takes
two to have double standards and live by them so you are not in total control here. He can choose to be dominated by you, or, absent you treating him the way he would like, can simply exit your relationship. It’s like you get a power rush over the domination aspect, then later you don’t like yourself for having inflicted pain on another? And its just the sort of pain you yourself most hate…inflicted by you, onto to another?
Double standards are usually set by two. But in my case it is set by me alone. I went over this with my therapist today and I think I'll hit on it in your post down a bit, too. I think I know best what others are thinking and truly mean. So I set the double standard and then apply it to him whether he thinks it or not. If he were to say, "Oh it's ok! I don't mind you going out with your friend." I would still see it as, "Of course I fvcking mind. But I'm going to lie and tell you I don't care so that I can get you back for this. Have fun with your "friend"".
I realize cognitively they are double standards but I cannot feel the empathy or remorse associated with it to make me stop or think twice.
As long as that was all 100% solid all down “below” you would rack up AsPD “points” to the max and feel
nothing for others,
or ultimately for yourself. The mere fact it comes up leads me to think that
on some level it bothers you. Other wise Mr. Affair would
remain exciting, or the narcotic
anticipation of the next fling would be absolutely intoxicating. Yet as your torrid affair(s) wears off; as he can’t maintain 100% rapt attention to you over time, the “whirlwind” excitement phase winds down. That seems to leave you exposed to need? Or am I totally wrong here and you totally are ok with double standards, knowing cognitively at a minimum (emotionally perhaps on and unconscious level), that the others, and especially your primary
suffer greatly at your hand?
Then I'll take a few AsPD points tacked on. I
truly feel like my husband will be ok and is not suffering. If he is not suffering, I have no empathy. Well, even if he were suffering (because lets be honest, he is) I still have no empathy for it. I have enough love and attention that I don't detract from him. He is overly loved and smothered by me when he is home. He gets kind of tired of me sometimes (in my eyes) because I'm always trying to touch him, hold him, be in his presence, seduce him
I want all of his attention and he tires of it because he brings work home with him often and has to divide his attentions to it while I play bratty, attention starved wife.
Therapist: This sleet is terrible.
Me: Yeah, it's always like this.
T: You don't mind it? Have you always lived in this area? (nice segue huh? lol)
M: Oh no.. I've lived.. blah blah blah blah
T: I didn't realize you had such an interesting background
M: That's because you never bothered to ask me.
This seems to come up over and over. Him not knowing! And, you constantly being upset / (in the “IDFK” range) about that. Yet here, he's in the lead, hes talking about your “interesting” background – showing he was at least listening sufficiently to find it interesting… He is probing you, trying to get YOU to evoke. Yet he's doing his damnest not to "lead the witness..."
Yeah, yeah... He's a mastermind.
Part of you seems to get some internal benefit out of him not knowing (because you have not just directly told him). You get to put him off center – he’s missed something major and is therefore either slow, or stupid? Has anyone ever done that to you? Worked you into a situation like that, where you “should" have know, but on reflection you really didn’t have all the facts? Gaslighting comes to mind...
I don't think of his as slow or stupid but it does give me internal benefit to deceive him. I make him all "white". He knows everything. He is infallible. He should know me because I'm just like all the other screwed up people popping into his office. He seems "me's" all day. He can read through all of people's BS and body language.
So then I guess I turn him "black" when he doesn't know it all. It gives me satisfaction to be better than all the rest he's seen because
*I* did that to him. *I* fooled him. Why are you playing games with him NOT telling him and NOT directing him always to the very most important things about your internal world? Why is it up to HIM to “ask about you” in such a way that he “magically” discovers things that are most important, why not just lead him by the hand, right to the good stuff immediately?
Because you have set unrealistic goals for him by your ability to read me from the start. You knew more about me from your first therapy post than he still does. (or so its how I see it) Maybe he knows all that you do, but he doesn't show it. I need someone with a voice and you have one Wisdom. He's more passive than I like.
You have to remember I've never gone to therapy before so I have this grand illusion in my mind of how it
should work. And in my head, he leads. He asks me questions and I answer. He's forthright about his dx for me and suspiciousness. When the real life doesn't live up to that, I get frustrated.
Yeah yeah, I'm blame shifting But he didn't ask! So then I went into how I felt like we never accomplish anything and how I'm always talking about the same things over and over. We finally delved a little lower into me and I hope it continues on next week.
When
you talk about the same things over and over (as a defense) you accomplish the objective of not delving into what really at the heart of what’s bugging you. Then you blame him for “never accomplish anything”. On the one side it’s a power trip and another side its intense fear of dealing with “what lies beneath”. Has someone set up that same scenario for you early in life? It's safe to be this way (the way they wanted you to be) over and over, yet you were (or really wanted to be) different?
Huh? LOL. You mean like wanting to grow as a child but having a parent who tried to tell you you were best off how you were? Like you could never be
you because you were striving to be them or their vision?
Another fun section of conversation went like this..
…”fun” as in “fun
and games?”
You don't like my use of "fun"? I, for some reason, use a lot of adjectives in my speech. A lot of, "good guy", "poor girl", "fun conversation", "broken personality". It's not literal... wait? Is that what they mean by impressionistic???
M: That's because my self esteem is so low.
T: Huh? :with confused face:
M: :Laughing: You always look confused when I tell you I have low self esteem.
T: That's because I am confused. I don't see that. It always surprises me when you say it.
Then I think I hurt his feelings a little given his facial expressions and body language.
Sans – you are
paying him to work on
you. Its OK to “hurt his feelings” a little. He’s compensated enough to even tolerate you going into a full red-blooded rant and rage directly at him. You paid the ticket to ride the roller coaster so by all means take the entire ride! Also, the above “feeling” should be brought back to
inside you! “I hurt his feelings a little” might be recast into “I statements” about how YOU felt about all that,
not him. “
I felt bad, I had confused him. I occasionally feel a horrible lack of self-esteem yet I managed to BS him with my masterful performance, and “flawless presentation” to him that really I’m just fine. After I did that, I snapped his head around that he wasn’t the smarty pants he thinks he is, nor is he as cool and “in control” of our time together as he thinks. I showed him just how “off” he was, and got some pleasure in all that. Yet this time, I also caught myself doing it, and I could even feel a bit of his pain, pain I know was inflicted on him by me, and I have to admit I did feel bad that I hurt his feelings, just as my feeling were hurt back when…
[/i]
I couldn't feel his pain. I didn't feel bad for fooling him, I felt proud.
All in all, good appointment and I think he's finally seeing the other side to me. I know I've been holding out on him some. I still judge myself pretty hard and have a hard time showing other people things. That's why I justify everything.
[i]He’s finally seeing …I know I’ve been holding out ----hummm, lets review who is in the driver’s seat here? Yes, lots of control! And sounds like you are rapidly eroding away the "
I...have a hard time showing other people things" walls.
Yes, the walls are eroding. Took me long enough, huh? lol. I still feel like I'm doing all the work. But let me guess? That's the point. Booo.
He also told me I have daddy issues. LOL. Go figure, right? That I'm trying to fill my daddy's place with my husband but he can't live up to what a dad should fill so I seek it other places. And my withdraws come in the form of going from man to man without getting too close instead of self harm. Yeah, self-harm I don't think about but the man to man I have.
I’m at a loss how the “daddy issues” lead to the self harm? Void of daddy approval so you try to “extract” that from adult men? They can’t replace dad so you “punish them” by withdrawing your love from them? That all ends up in self-harm to you because you “throw yourself” at the next one in line and that ultimately ends up labeled as “self harm”? A self reinforcing cycle?
Maybe I missed a middle section. LOL. We were talking about my withdrawing from the other guy sometimes and he said it was normal for a cluster B to withdraw. But that sometimes people will jump from man to man without getting too close and then withdraw as a coping mechanism. And sometimes people self harm to feel something else besides the pain they're in.
I really wanted to talk to him about something I considered the other night about sexual aggressiveness and myself.. but I chickened out.. Maybe next week.
Sometimes the last thing you mention, just in passing is really the tip of the iceberg you want to get a rope on and pull up. By all means journal your ass off on this thing that popped up “
the other night about sexual aggressiveness and myself…”. The fact you “chickened out” is perfect!!!
Are you embarrassed (surprised? conflicted?) about how strong your sexual desires are? Feeling a bit “wolf like, out on the prowl? Like you can have anyone sexually that you desire when you set your mind to it?” Have anything to do with “identifying with the aggressor”, rape, the common female fantasy (not reality) of being delightfully ravished, yet not being in any way responsible for the hot sex? This is an anonymous forum and anything goes. But if its too private just don’t share it (or all of it),
however do journal it. Sounds like its “something” for sure.
Ok, Wisdom. You asked for it. Maybe I'll print this out at the end because there's no way I can bare to say this to all of you and him. I don't even know if what I'm thinking is valid or whatever the word.
My sexual desires, the real ones... not the sex with my husband desires.. are twisted (to me). Violence usually. Not rape because it is "delightfully ravished" but because it is degrading. It is devaluing. When my other guy tells me he wants to abuse me, it turns me on. When he asks me if I want him to grab me by the hair, throw me to the floor and fvck the sh!t out of me.. it turns me on. When he put his hands around my neck, I got wet. It's surprising to even me that it does this. But I suppose after thinking about it for a few weeks (because thats when he started really saying that to me) I've slowly figured out where it comes from. Maybe? After dating my then boyfriend (now husband) back when I was about 16, we broke up for a few weeks. I lashed back and dated a slue of men. I, literally, had dates every.single.night. and slept with a lot of them with mutual consent. Most of the men I met online. I have a boy hobby in my real life and so I hang out on those forums and being one of the only females, I get lots of attention. Well this one guy I met somewhere else (Honestly don't remember. it was 9 years ago). I lied to him and told him I was 19. He was in his late 20s. I went to his house with the intention of hanging out and maybe some kind of innocent fun. I don't remember the night. All I remember is telling him I was really only 16. Then I remember laying on his couch while he said the words, " like it my little 16 year old sl*t" and us having sex. Or rather, me laying there and him fvcking the shell that was me. Then I was driving home, crying. I don't remember because I'm sure I've repressed it. He didn't drug me or anything. But I changed after that. I was already predisposed to being broken (my words again) and I suppose that didn't help. What is it they say? The abused subconsciously seek to repeat their abuse? I don't know.
Alice- Thanks, hun. I've thought about showing him posts from here before. It is much easier to write them than speak them. I don't have any issues with the articulation, more the whole saying it and seeing what I perceive as the judging looks.
Wow two things hit me. 1. try writing things down then perhaps highlight parts of them and read them to your therapist. Read with emotion, not flat. His “antenna” will work better that way. It can be powerful! Can also highlight and read from your prior or others posts. 2.
“his judging looks” – boy probe that to its depths!!! Try to “catalog the judging looks” – what items specifically get him to cast a judging look? What exactly are the judging looks (facial muscle positions, etc shock, horror, disgust, etc – be verbose and specific!) – seriously go round and round on this one till you have it all out on paper. Lots of reflection, recall, study, indexing and cataloging etc. There are gems to be found here!
1. I actually do have a blog that I write on. It's private and zero people have access but me. Zero people even know about it, except you all now but good luck finding it. LOL. Its my own journal and feelings. I don't write in it often but I do. Mostly I write in it because I get home from my "dates" and am so excited and full of energy that I want to relive it. I don't really have anyone else to tell my trysts to, so this serves that purpose.
2. He doesn't actually have judging looks. I talked to him about it today. It's more that I judge me by what I think are his standards. I look at him and see a man, put together, married, probably has the best wife ever, is compassionate and knows how to keep her and treat her.. and then he sees
me and all I do. He is human. How could he not judge? Even if only to himself.
Why is this affair so much less sexual than the prior? If it’s not to satisfy “excess” sexual hunger, what does it accomplish for you? The 2 year ago affair, why was it so much more sexual? If this affair is more easily hidden from your husband, why is that? Does the danger of being caught by your husband increase the sexual tension / release? If some thrill feels good, why not more? What limits the thrill, or is there counter side to it? Do you get off the “getting away with it” or perhaps feel more “in control” over your destiny having “one upped” your husband who is “none the wiser”? Does the string of affairs bring you “unlimited intimacy” (do it with anyone you feel like it, when you feel like it, as you like it) or does it destroy the very intimacy (trust, protection, not feeling at real risk of being abandoned) that you really seek? Again, much here!
This one is less sexual because.. well.. it's been 6 months and we haven't had sex!!! LOL
My usual string of men are short lived. A month maybe. And in that time I get what I need- sex and attention. The last one (the one I thought would be IT) lasted a month. We were intense and I saw him all the time. He would come over under the veil of helping out my husband with his car but then would come into the house for a "drink" and we'd fvck on the bar stools.. or the kitchen sink.. or the chase. MmM.. The bar stools were my favorite.
What limits the thrill of this one? Him. My inability to see him more often. He has me to the point right now were I'm so sexually ready for him that I would take him in the middle of the day in a populated park. The last time we went out and started our course of sexual touching.. I hinted at wanting to move forward and his lame excuse of not wanting to do it in the car was he had too much respect for me to do that. Wtf.
________________________________________________________________
Thank you again, Wisdom. I hope some of these answers clear up things for you and everyone, but there's a good chance they haven't LOL.
Thoughts?
- Sans
Only keep you warm and show you my empath for your cold tooties. See? I can be nice. Nicer and sweeter than one could ever dream, actually. Won't you let me show you?
Where are you when i need you... 
I realize I've slacked on updating. Been feeling withdrawn from the thread for some reason. Anyway, time to update. 
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