Had my first therapy session today!

jmac wrote:

serena_littlefield wrote:

SansStars wrote:But really I don't have shame and I'm not embarrassed by my actions- I just know what I'm suppose to feel in a given situation and can portray my body into giving off those signals as well. Less conflicting words with actions makes me a much more effective manipulator.

I've read a number of your posts because your case interests me. You want to know who or what you are? You're a psychopath. You may have HPD and BPD traits but they are secondary to your core problem.

Regarding your therapist's reluctance to consider a personality disorder diagnosis, it may be because therapists in general don't like diagnosing anyone with a personality disorder because a person's personality is something that can't be changed or treated. So expect your therapist to keep shoving axis 1 disorders in your face.

If in fact you do have a personality disorder, the only thing you can do is equip yourself with some coping strategies (this part you know). But here is the thing, you are already using coping strategies, a lot, and quite successfully given your problem. Unfortunately for you, there are no coping strategies that can help you deal with the experience of your parent's love being cut off and the emotional bond broken. (Sex only goes so far in alleviating that feeling of being alone in the world.)

If you want to change, which I know you don't, you will have to start trusting people. You will have to somehow learn to love and form emotional connections with others; however, even if you wanted to change, I don't believe you could as personality is just too engrained.

So long as you feel unlovable, distrustful of humanity, and emotionally disconnected from others, you'll continue to wander this earth a corpse, telling people what they want to hear and playing the part so that you get what you want but not quite because what you really want is to be loved but you're incapable of giving or receiving love and so you're f*cked.

Good luck.

Sans seemed to have agreed with most of what you said, but that you used the term psychopath instead of sociopath. If she agreed to you so much, I don't understand why the "rescuers" came. This means you obviously knew more of her disposition than the false friends (people who say what one wants to hear and not what is actually true).

Mostly what I wanted was for Chris to come back and play with me. Sadly though, he doesn't seem to be coming back. So I will have to settle for you Mac-attack. (Hehe. That's cute )

Why should I argue with the statement above, given that sociopath is exchanged for psychopath. It fits me. I do distrust humanity, emotionally disconnect, and feel unloved. I'm not going to lie in order to make myself appear better. I'm horribly paranoid and not sure I even know what love is. I feel what I consider love but we've proven more than once my maladaptive thinking and flawed reasoning. My husband loves me but according to my therapist, "it will never be enough because I'm expecting him to fill a parental role of love and that is more unconditional than any other. So, it will never be filled by one person."

I don't think Alice is a false friend and it's not nice to call her that. Your friends do not always know everything about you either, Mac. She based her loving and emotional responce on the fact that she has respect for me. She is a friend. If she was false, she would not have cared enough to try. I commend her for speaking her mind and heart. <3

What do you think, Mac? Was Chris correct on psychopath? Should the world shiver at my name?

Gracefully,

Sans

Sans Wrote: My husband loves me but according to my therapist, "it will never be enough because I'm expecting him to fill a parental role of love and that is more unconditional than any other. So, it will never be filled by one person."

Powerful statement San's.

I am sure you are very interested on how your therapist, will help you to learn and control your thoughts, to fill that void in a more healthy manner.

I shiver Sans, brrrr ... !

I have a warm, fuzzy blanket with your name on it, Musician. Come on over and get it. I'll help with those shivers.

C&H- I'm interested as well. Is that even possible? Doesn't everyone deserve to know they're loved unconditionally? How do you stop feeling such a void when you cognitively know nothing has changed? I will still never have that love.

Sans
I think it is terribly irresponsible and wrong for drop-in anonymous people to be flinging cheap B.S. labels like psychopath around, trying to stick them on you or anyone else. For one thing, people recklessly embrace the term "psycho" as if it is obvious concrete factual reality; instead they should at least once try the opposite - see if it stands up under scrutiny.

First of all, in common parlance the term psychopath is automatically a moral judgement, as well as an alleged personality disorder. But how can it be both: how can you judge someone to be evil who supposedly has no biological or psychological basis for goodness?

Moreover, if you ever sit down and research the psychological / psychiatric history of this term, it is fraught with ambiguity and elusiveness. At various times psychopaths have been characterized as people with no conscience (they were all id), or they were in reaction formation to too much conscience (they were all superego). Completely opposite causes, can both be true?

At first, psychopaths were formed due to societal influences, then it was Freudian mechanisms, then genetics, the latest theory is it is due to all of the above.

In Nazi Germany, normal married men who loved their own children went to work as prison guards and did terrible things to the children of Jewish people and other children of non-Germans there. Later, studies of students at Stanford university demonstrated that most people will readily harm others if they feel they are obeying authority. So does this mean that everyone is a latent psychopath?

When I was studying Criminology, an instructor of mine pointed all this out. He noted that there was as much statistical variation within the psychopathic PD as there was in the general population. In other words, psychopaths had as many characteristics as normal people did: the two classes were the same.

But I do believe in anti-social traits, and I believe there are evil acts, since I seen them in my line of work. I don't see them in you - you aren't trying to violate anyone's rights in the forum, you let everyone have their say and where you disagree, while you do so strongly (me incl. ) you don't try to eliminate anyone's POV.

Also, your screen name and your motto indicates that you feel you are missing something, something you would like to embrace, the stars, symbolic for light, for love. A person with an overabundance of anti-social traits probably would not open up and admit that there was something she felt she needed more of, but instead smugly think that she was blessedly self-sufficient, and contemptuously assume that anyone looking for such qualities was pathetically weak (those HPD Disingenuous subtypes I was talking about power dating? - I know them well, you don't remind me of them).

So don't waste your time beating yourself up with the psycho rap due to guilt or whatever; instead stay focused on those stars.

Orion

SansStars wrote:I have a warm, fuzzy blanket with your name on it, Musician. Come on over and get it. I'll help with those shivers.

awww Sans! How sweet (it is freezing here after all). Ok i shall come get your blanket, but only if you promise not to eat me up like a Preying Mantis... !

Mwah Musician (Grasshopper)

'Serena's' post was flawed b/c it suggested that people struggling w/ a PD are essentially a lost cause. I don't subscribe to that, and I'll go to the grave believing people have the ability to change themselves if they want it bad enough. I would agree that a person's core character becomes rather set after the teens, and it takes a focus to sway it.

Other than that, I didn't find the post perhaps as awful as some of you do. Serena was merely trying to call Sans out for her bs. Couple of observations:

1. Alice - not entirely convinced you are HPD. That or you have made progress. If so, congrats - you're likeable.
2. Sans - your brutal honesty is respectable, but your posts also reek of pride. I think that's where I lost some respect for you - not that you care - not that I care that you care (lol) but I'm writing b/c you I believe you sought out therapy for reasons other than proving your ability to manipulate a therapist - that happened as a consequence of who you are right now and what you need - but it's not why you took that step in the first place. Suggestion: why don't you tell the therapist what is going through your mind as it comes in (all the manipulations)...don't hint at it...spit it out. Print out your own posts if you need to. If you truly want someone to help you - if you really want to go through the adventure of change, you're shooting yourself in the foot by dancing around. Let the guy know that you are trying to manipulate him - or find a female therapist that won't fall for your charms and will call you on your bs. Otherwise, your sessions will amount to dead time. And yes, then you may wind up as that 'corpse' Serena referred to.

Rhodes wrote:1. Alice - not entirely convinced you are HPD. That or you have made progress. If so, congrats - you're likeable.

I'm glad you find me likeable- I've noticed a lot of people here haven't been liking me very much lately

I'm curious to ask though, why do you NOT think I'm HPD?
Please tell me as much as about the foundation of thought as you can, because it greatly interests me that you DON'T see it!

I have been in therapy off and on all throughout the course of my life, and my last proffessional was a Psychiatrist who did diagnose me as Bio-polar, Borderline Personality Disorder & Histrionic as well...

Ergo, my curiostity as why you think I'm not?
Not that I don't doubt your foundation for misbeleive, I'm intrigued by it actually. This is something I've only been working on the past month, so I'm curiouos to see what progress I've made (if any) that leads you think I'm not afflicted by the disorder?

Thank you- I look forward to hearing your thoughts on this

Sans wrote: My husband loves me but according to my therapist, "it will never be enough because I'm expecting him to fill a parental role of love and that is more unconditional than any other. So, it will never be filled by one person."

This strikes me as a key concept in both DBT and TFP – getting towards seeing “gray” in a person, and still having that be OK! Vs. a black and white view of people which is by definition a more polarized view. Think of a bar of steel with zero magnetism as “normal” – there are good parts and bad parts and all are mixed together. Overall the person is good, however there are many flaws. This is normal.

Now imagine that same bar, but all the positive charge coalesced on the top tip, and all the negative charge coalesced on the bottom tip. The bar would now be magnetized with distinct ends (the poles). No charge would really exist in the middle.

Instead of seeing the un-magnetized bar, the BPD (sometimes this happens only when under some stress) sees only one “polarized” end. They are contemporaneously 100% blind to the center and other polarized end. They then react immediately to the only pole they see. Think of the harsh “reactive” reaction as actually fully appropriate to what they can myopically see at that particular time. If they saw the entire “whole” without bias, their “reaction” would be perfectly regulated!

Above quote looks like parents failed in the unconditional love department (and all do, on some occasions, more or less…) and as a result, from that point forward, there remains a void that needs to be filled. The same is true in everyone, since no parent is perfect, without a flaw in himself or herself. All kids reach adulthood with at least some childhood injury and neediness. Severity of course varies.

Don’t want to beat a dead horse here but religion / spiritualism / naturalism, (many routes to the same thing in my book) etc… can give adults a vision of a perfect, 100% pure, ideal parent. After all, a perfect parent doles out tons of love, but also protects and comforts a child from getting themselves into harm’s way, instills some basic discipline that is best learned and “internalized” for use in the future, helps the child avoid trouble all together, helps with resilience building after adversity (from chance, from normal bumps along the road, and from the normal “toil” required to meet objectives, and after typical “errors in judgment” that are a natural part of growing up, risk taking and transition to adulthood), provide gentle redirection, substantial help after major trouble, help getting things back on track, etc. As an adult, religion / spiritualism / naturalism can help “backfill” in the hole that the parents left behind.

I agree the love you need as an adult comes from several sources, with love for yourself right at the very core. Make a beautiful self and then feel the love of that inside. That only becomes pathologically narcissistic if you construct your self that way. In any case, get rid of conflicts at the core of yourself and you will magically find what’s left is eminently loveable. That positive energy can also be shared with others. Oddly, giving it away doesn’t diminish what you have left inside for yourself, in fact giving it away actually increases what you have “left”.

Your spouse can also be a huge help and a huge source. His ability to “supply” will be greatly enhanced by your unconditional love for him. There is no double standard here; you love him, it comes back to you double – both in him (he’s stronger, that’s great for you!) and in you (the positive boost you will get for having freely given a bit of your self to him, without expectation of “return.”)

The ability to “tolerate” flaws must be an art – flaws in your parents, flaws in your spouse, flaws in others, flaws deep in your self. You do the best you can. Expect imperfection and do your personal best, that’s all that’s required by love. The honest attempt is always good enough. Its loveable.

Although the above quote from the therapist is true, it’s not without great hope. It’s not a permanent verdict that you must live, for the rest of your life, without something you essentially need to be really happy. Some day soon you will likely recognize that the “quantity” of love coming out of your husband for you is already more than ample for your own immense happiness, so he is more or less “off the hook” already. He would however be even stronger if you did your personal best to love him back.

The love for yourself will eventually show through if you solve your internal self conflicts. And, you are forthrightly dealing with all of those in your current therapy -- much to the cheers and hoorays of all the Non’s and HPDers here. I for one can feel you push your self forward in your therapy. I’m sure others can clearly see and feel that too! I already see large changes! You are already catching yourself “not telling” your therapist what’s most important to you, and running him in circles around on things that are not moving you forward. You yourself are catching these things, then just “laying it out” to him, raw, uncut, so you can both look at what’s going on together. Every time you do that you only get stronger. I can already see benefits of that process in much better emotional regulation, so its already paying handsome dividends!

Hang in. Many, many people here are totally routing for you. We (and many more readers in the future) appreciate you courage in sharing your struggle here, complete with the occasional setbacks, and “lost / frustrated / WTF” feelings along the way. Its inspiring to see you doing your best to just push this disorder right out of your life. Its also super beneficial for those who can’t afford therapy, don’t have access to it, don’ t understand or are just to afraid to get started. Thanks!!!

More direct thought on some of your prior quotes in a bit…

Sans,

On to reflecting back on some of your posts, to search out patterns, “states of mind” to be labeled, stuff to probe in therapy, etc. Caution, I’m going to press hard at times in here, and its all speculative, so don’t be afraid to skip reading this if you feel too “vulnerable”, are in a horrible mood, etc. Trying to “harp” on some recurrent themes that seem to be evolving.

I can’t tell you how hard this is to “regulate in the delivery” w/o having in-person body language and “vibes” as real time feedback. Forgive me if I’m too blunt in some areas, and seem to “dance around” too much in others. Hopefully overall a few nuggets can be gleaned out of the entire pile…

Religion to me is something that sounds really good in theory, but not something I could ever get into

.
Religion is great in theory, and indeed it is exceptionally hard to put into practice. One theologian friend of my lamented, “had I thoroughly understood that 100% of my theology education could be boiled down to “Love thy neighbor as thy self” I never would have invested all that time and effort.” Here on this Form and in psychology we can’t be pushing any specific religious ideology, however I would be interested in what makes you the type of person “who could never get into it”? If that ended up being a deep down inside feeling “I’m not good enough” I’d certainly want to challenge that strictly within the domain of psychology (and perhaps point out to you that most religions don’t demand perfection either...)

You're right though. I do want someone to tell me what to do - but I want them to basically tell me what I want is the right thing.

Yikes – you seem to want a “yes-man”, yet someone who is 100% honest?

Know what I mean?

No, not really…would love a paragraph here. Seems like a very complex feeling/logic inside you.

I don't have enough self-confidence in my own decisions and am constantly second-guessing.

Sounds like you are on a foundation of sand? It can’t feel good if you are making decisions then, later, second guessing them. Why is your self so weak, such that you don’t have lasting confidence in your prior decisions?

I worry that I did the wrong thing [like what?] at the wrong time.

Wrong time? Why was it the “wrong time”? Look deeply at anything that felt OK “at the time” but later “felt wrong”. Get in there and define the “state of mind” you were in when the wrong decision was made. Then look at the “state of mine” afterwords, when you felt the prior decisions you made were wrong. Wrong back then, why? Why OK back then, but wrong now…. switch frames of mind back and forth a few times and see how you feel.

But, if someone else says it's right, it must be!

Are you confused inside you, as to what is right? Need you to drill deeper in here how you feel.. I strongly suspect your “ internal gyroscope” is spinning just fine. You just seem to block some things, make certain choices during that blockage, then later, when you calmly reflect on things, the “blockage is removed” so you then experience the prior things as wrong. Then you feel bad about yourself? Or do you feel absolutely “unstable” (or constantly flipping?) at your very core? If you can, try to recall specific examples of situations that illustrate each state and the “typical pattern” of behavior in that state. Ultimately if you can get this out in the open where you can see each facet you can then integrate them better. That would bring a large boost overall!

The only difference in my life is that I'm slowly getting over/moving on/withdrawing a little/whatever you want to call it with the other guy. I still drive myself crazy with him and relish in the whirl wind, talk every day, see him when I can.. But it's been 6 months now and nothing is changing. I can't see myself with things the same way forever. So, it's time to do something drastic.

Lets look at the logic here.

1. I’m withdrawing from him [a certain action, concrete, a fact…]
2. I relish the whirlwind. [interpersonal drama, centering on me, is a narcotic for me?]
3. I talk with him every day, and see him when I can. [When I decide to withdraw but then reverse that, back and forth, its oddly stimulating to me?]
4. Nothing is changing.[I recognize this pattern, its happened with many other prior flings. At some point they reach "The Clash” – “Should I stay or should I go” - excitement for a while, ambivalence, move on eventually, numbness to what happened before, and just look forward to the next?]
5. I can’t see myself with things [Sounds like the “other guy” has been depersonalized – “things”? That could make it easier to just “do what ya gotta do”?]
6. I need to do something drastic [Ok, here is a feeling that’s ultra worth probing. What “needs” to be done? Run away? Destruct? Have a grand finale “break up” with “the other / now a thing”? Then that clears the way, (provides the OK I’m free to shop the market?) opens up “permission” for a fresh new shopping trip? Yet allows for the prior “things” to perhaps regroup, grovel their way back into your life? Finally set things straight and prove his undying love for you? (That could be a good validation boost for you, at least for a time?) What now, considering divorce?
   [/list]

Why does drastic action need to be taken, at this time? Why is “now” so radically different? What is radically different such that “drastic action” most now be taken?”

or its time to move on, regroup, find a new one.

Is that a question that others can answer? Would you like someone outside of yourself to decide for you? ...more below

Not that I feel like I want a new one…

Why not? I thought (based on the above) at least part of you seems to “relish the whirlwind”. What part of you “relishes the whirlwind” and what part feels like “I don’t want a new one”? Reflection...study...labels...

But I thought after the last guy I wouldn't do this again and yet here I am.

The current “other guy” was supposed to be the last? After that fling then back to monogamous? Why was that one O.K.? As you were doing it (having that fling) were you feeling like you should not have? The comment “yet here I am” seems like you have gone round and round a circle, and have recognized that you do that, yet are unable to “break the cycle” so to speak. “I thought I wouldn’t do this again” – yet I did. What was it that you knew prior that you didn’t want to do again, yet you did? Why?

IDFK. I'm frustrated.

I understand you are frustrated. I can feel it. I can sort of feel what you get out of the other guy, the excitement, the “whirl wind”, his rapt interest in you, perhaps sweet validation of your desirability? Yet all the energy you expend in making yourself awesomely desirous in that relationship, comes out of the life energy you can devote to being awesomely desirous to your primary relationship? And if you feel any guilt in the auxiliary relationship, that takes away from fuel you could have thrown on the primary relationship “fire”.

If you fracture your primary relationship your need for validation / protection / adoration / tolerance for you, "being you”, would likely go up a healthy notch, no? The “IDFK / I’m frustrated” part of above is best not ignored. Instead of running away and “medicating” that frustrated pain, why not boldly enter right into the heart of the frustration, directly “into that pain”, and have a good look around – what is in there? Where are your real fears?

I'm sure my husband has some co-dependency issues, but hey! He's made it 10 years with me and I'm sure he'll keep out lasting the rest.

If you could help him resolve his co-dependency issues he would actually be a more attractive mate for you. And as he felt better about himself you too would likely “rise with the tide”. Can you “protect his backside” here, or do you find that ideally you actually feel safer when he is a bit weak? Perhaps so you feel more “essential” to him for his survival? Just throwing stuff out here…

Ok- I've said this before and I'll say it again. Beware; it's not easy to hear.

Is it not easy for me to hear / understand? Or not easy for you to say and hear yourself say it?

What if the shoe was on the other foot? [My husband cheating on me…]
LOL! It wouldn't be.
I have learned over the years to manipulate him into being ok with me and my "moods"

is he OK with your direct manipulation of him, and your moods? Or does he suffer from your actions?

but he also knows better than to be out of line.

He is smarter that you, “knows better” ? Or is it you who is smarter than him / “knows better? If you “know better” yet still somehow act “out of line” does that somehow end up splattering on him, and magically become his fault?

I'm the dominant personality.

What do you get out of DOMINATION if not pleasure over having the submissive one do something they personally find repugnant? Why or how does his suffering somehow bring you “relief from suffering?

I set the double standards I live by.

Takes two to have double standards and live by them so you are not in total control here. He can choose to be dominated by you, or, absent you treating him the way he would like, can simply exit your relationship. It’s like you get a power rush over the domination aspect, then later you don’t like yourself for having inflicted pain on another? And its just the sort of pain you yourself most hate…inflicted by you, onto to another?

I realize cognitively they are double standards but I cannot feel the empathy or remorse associated with it to make me stop or think twice.

As long as that was all 100% solid all down “below” you would rack up AsPD “points” to the max and feel nothing for others, or ultimately for yourself. The mere fact it comes up leads me to think that on some level it bothers you. Other wise Mr. Affair would remain exciting, or the narcotic anticipation of the next fling would be absolutely intoxicating. Yet as your torrid affair(s) wears off; as he can’t maintain 100% rapt attention to you over time, the “whirlwind” excitement phase winds down. That seems to leave you exposed to need? Or am I totally wrong here and you totally are ok with double standards, knowing cognitively at a minimum (emotionally perhaps on and unconscious level), that the others, and especially your primary suffer greatly at your hand?

I had a really good therapy session today. I actually felt like I got something out of it. I went in and it kind of went like this..

I loved this recounting of the dialogue and thoughts!

Therapist: This sleet is terrible.
Me: Yeah, it's always like this.
T: You don't mind it? Have you always lived in this area? (nice segue huh? lol)
M: Oh no.. I've lived.. blah blah blah blah
T: I didn't realize you had such an interesting background
M: That's because you never bothered to ask me.

This seems to come up over and over. Him not knowing! And, you constantly being upset / (in the “IDFK” range) about that. Yet here, he's in the lead, hes talking about your “interesting” background – showing he was at least listening sufficiently to find it interesting… He is probing you, trying to get YOU to evoke. Yet he's doing his damnest not to "lead the witness..."

Part of you seems to get some internal benefit out of him not knowing (because you have not just directly told him). You get to put him off center – he’s missed something major and is therefore either slow, or stupid? Has anyone ever done that to you? Worked you into a situation like that, where you “should" have know, but on reflection you really didn’t have all the facts? Gaslighting comes to mind...

Why are you playing games with him NOT telling him and NOT directing him always to the very most important things about your internal world? Why is it up to HIM to “ask about you” in such a way that he “magically” discovers things that are most important, why not just lead him by the hand, right to the good stuff immediately?

Yeah yeah, I'm blame shifting But he didn't ask! So then I went into how I felt like we never accomplish anything and how I'm always talking about the same things over and over. We finally delved a little lower into me and I hope it continues on next week.

When you talk about the same things over and over (as a defense) you accomplish the objective of not delving into what really at the heart of what’s bugging you. Then you blame him for “never accomplish anything”. On the one side it’s a power trip and another side its intense fear of dealing with “what lies beneath”. Has someone set up that same scenario for you early in life? It's safe to be this way (the way they wanted you to be) over and over, yet you were (or really wanted to be) different?

Another fun section of conversation went like this..

…”fun” as in “fun and games?”

M: That's because my self esteem is so low.
T: Huh? :with confused face:
M: :Laughing: You always look confused when I tell you I have low self esteem.
T: That's because I am confused. I don't see that. It always surprises me when you say it.

Then I think I hurt his feelings a little given his facial expressions and body language.

Sans – you are paying him to work on you. Its OK to “hurt his feelings” a little. He’s compensated enough to even tolerate you going into a full red-blooded rant and rage directly at him. You paid the ticket to ride the roller coaster so by all means take the entire ride! Also, the above “feeling” should be brought back to inside you! “I hurt his feelings a little” might be recast into “I statements” about how YOU felt about all that, not him. “I felt bad, I had confused him. I occasionally feel a horrible lack of self-esteem yet I managed to BS him with my masterful performance, and “flawless presentation” to him that really I’m just fine. After I did that, I snapped his head around that he wasn’t the smarty pants he thinks he is, nor is he as cool and “in control” of our time together as he thinks. I showed him just how “off” he was, and got some pleasure in all that. Yet this time, I also caught myself doing it, and I could even feel a bit of his pain, pain I know was inflicted on him by me, and I have to admit I did feel bad that I hurt his feelings, just as my feeling were hurt back when…

M: :sits back, smiles, and says smoothly: Yeah well it does give me a sense of satisfaction to know that you have 20 years experience and I could fool you into believing my manipulations without even trying. Its been almost 2 months and you haven't seen it.
H: Well.. I am fallible, too.

Supports all the above.

Later I told him I thought he was wrong about my diagnosis. That I completely understand WHY he gave me that one. Because I do have trouble regulating emotions.. but that it's so much more than that to me. Its involuntary.. ingrained.. And he did make some references to my behaviors and cluster B pds more than the mood disorder.

Ask directly if there are any insurance issues related to the diagnosis? Mood disorder might be 100% covered (thought to be treatable) where PD might not (thought to be too “ingrained” to respond to treatment). Also might ask him, “would your therapeutic approach change if I came to you from a world class academic clinic with either diagnosis?

All in all, good appointment and I think he's finally seeing the other side to me. I know I've been holding out on him some. I still judge myself pretty hard and have a hard time showing other people things. That's why I justify everything.

He’s finally seeing …I know I’ve been holding out ----hummm, lets review who is in the driver’s seat here? Yes, lots of control! And sounds like you are rapidly eroding away the "I...have a hard time showing other people things" walls.

He also told me I have daddy issues. LOL. Go figure, right? That I'm trying to fill my daddy's place with my husband but he can't live up to what a dad should fill so I seek it other places. And my withdraws come in the form of going from man to man without getting too close instead of self harm. Yeah, self-harm I don't think about but the man to man I have.

I’m at a loss how the “daddy issues” lead to the self harm? Void of daddy approval so you try to “extract” that from adult men? They can’t replace dad so you “punish them” by withdrawing your love from them? That all ends up in self-harm to you because you “throw yourself” at the next one in line and that ultimately ends up labeled as “self harm”? A self reinforcing cycle?

I really wanted to talk to him about something I considered the other night about sexual aggressiveness and myself.. but I chickened out.. Maybe next week.

Sometimes the last thing you mention, just in passing is really the tip of the iceberg you want to get a rope on and pull up. By all means journal your ass off on this thing that popped up “the other night about sexual aggressiveness and myself…”. The fact you “chickened out” is perfect!!! Are you embarrassed (surprised? conflicted?) about how strong your sexual desires are? Feeling a bit “wolf like, out on the prowl? Like you can have anyone sexually that you desire when you set your mind to it?” Have anything to do with “identifying with the aggressor”, rape, the common female fantasy (not reality) of being delightfully ravished, yet not being in any way responsible for the hot sex? This is an anonymous forum and anything goes. But if its too private just don’t share it (or all of it), however do journal it. Sounds like its “something” for sure.

Alice- Thanks, hun. I've thought about showing him posts from here before. It is much easier to write them than speak them. I don't have any issues with the articulation, more the whole saying it and seeing what I perceive as the judging looks.

Wow two things hit me. 1. try writing things down then perhaps highlight parts of them and read them to your therapist. Read with emotion, not flat. His “antenna” will work better that way. It can be powerful! Can also highlight and read from your prior or others posts. 2. “his judging looks” – boy probe that to its depths!!! Try to “catalog the judging looks” – what items specifically get him to cast a judging look? What exactly are the judging looks (facial muscle positions, etc shock, horror, disgust, etc – be verbose and specific!) – seriously go round and round on this one till you have it all out on paper. Lots of reflection, recall, study, indexing and cataloging etc. There are gems to be found here!

And you're right about him only being able to dx what I show him. That's why I'm trying to show him the other side of me. I hope we continue on as we did this time because I felt like it accomplished much more.

Major progress – from he’s not seeing (I’m not telling) to “we…accomplished” (I told him more and that felt good, not only that he had more to go on and understood me better but oddly that enabled me to feel comfortable going deeper…)

I understand I am fallible. No one is perfect and it is possible that one day he may find out. But the reason I feel I won't get caught is because I never have before. Even as recently as 2 years ago I had a much more sexual affair and he was never the wiser.

Just a thought, related to the above aggressive sexual drive you mentioned, why is this affair so much less sexual than the prior? If it’s not to satisfy “excess” sexual hunger, what does it accomplish for you? The 2 year ago affair, why was it so much more sexual? If this affair is more easily hidden from your husband, why is that? Does the danger of being caught by your husband increase the sexual tension / release? If some thrill feels good, why not more? What limits the thrill, or is there counter side to it? Do you get off the “getting away with it” or perhaps feel more “in control” over your destiny having “one upped” your husband who is “none the wiser”? Does the string of affairs bring you “unlimited intimacy” (do it with anyone you feel like it, when you feel like it, as you like it) or does it destroy the very intimacy (trust, protection, not feeling at real risk of being abandoned) that you really seek? Again, much here!

I don't know that I'm in therapy to change. I guess I don't know why I'm there at all anymore. I went for some understanding of myself but now everyone thinks I'm trying to change and I'm not; for now. So, am I going for the wrong reasons? Why would I keep going then?

Go for answers! Probe deep. “I went for some understanding of myself” – just keep that in focus and you will get answers.