Had my first therapy session today!

Want some advice that has helped me?

"the rightous will walk by faith" - I'm not exactly sure what that biblical line is refering to... but when you KNOW your not doing anything wrong, continue on talking to/interacting with the person. eventually they will see (and so will you!!!) what the other person's internal emotional world is like. anyways I heard that one day on the radio and I remember thinking it completely describes what I have been doing with people as I tinker toy with their heads. some times I get all these social rules back and emotional reframes back and then other times they do ALLLLL these screwy weird weird things and other stuff I watch... but eventually, they get to see into my personality and realize I wasn't messing with them, we just have different expectations. with time and practice you will learn that people have a couple of different standard personality and ego types and you will learn how to interact with each. sometimes you will fail no matter what you do. the more you labor at it the better you will get it. the more you learn about yourself the easier it will be to work with others. just keep working at it, you'll get it or get better at it eventually.

and if that wasn't what you were expecting as a response:
*runs up, hugs and shouts:*
"Snuggles!!!"
*and then immediately runs off out of sight*

thisislabor wrote:
and if that wasn't what you were expecting as a response:
*runs up, hugs and shouts:*
"Snuggles!!!"
*and then immediately runs off out of sight*

DIS' ONES BETTER!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

SNUGGLES FTW!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Hey wait... come back and snuggles wif me

Without Stars -

Hmmm... so your dx is NPD... That's a bit of a surprise. I do agree with LS that women do get dx-ed HPD wrongly when they are NPD. Anyways, lets leave the dx to the professionals. If this is the dx you got, so it is.

You see I fit #3 - #8. But I'd consider those to be the center section that could really be any/all of them. I don't fit #1 or 2 or 9 (those some may disagree with me on 9). #1,2,9 to me are the more defining traits. The others are the gooey overlap.

Does that make sense or is my reasoning flawed here, too?

The differential dx can't be based just on DSM criteria. It has to take developmental history and other factors into account, which is why a professional is the best person to do that. We can only discuss our opinions on the forum

OKHWG- Why is it that you seem to always miss Wisdom's points so completely....

Well, I must say that sometimes I agree with OK on this. Wisdom, may have the best of intentions ( and I am sure he does), but sometimes it gets a bit spooky. His obsessive, voluminous, collected and copy-pasted theoretical ramblings, which one can easily read on the internet, and many a times unconscious (hopefully) manipulation to maintain the position of the most "wise" is pretentious and can get a bit irritating If he could only tone down his "competitiveness" to be the best guide/attention-grabber to you or Alice or Masquerade just a little bit, I am sure he is a delight to read

(Sorry Wisdom, for this rudeness)

But he sure does know how to keep you happy, Sans ( and I mean this positively and in good humor)

Anyways, best wishes with your progress in therapy.

Sans,

Suggest going through each of the NPD 1 to 9 and answer two ways:
1. inside an intimate (physical or emotional) relationship
2. inside an inter-personally close, but NOT intimate relationship - things like associates, friends, colleagues, co workers, you & the boss, you and subordinates, etc.

If its "the same" then its NPD. If its MUCH more pronounced in pure intimate relationships then I'd argue its BP organization with NPD and HPD features (in the parlance of DSM 5 draft / Kerberg
-or-
take a look at these.
Source: http://www.millon.net/taxonomy/summary.htm

Histrionic - Disingenuous (antisocial features) ... ask Orion about this group!
Underhanded, double-dealing, scheming, contriving, piloting, crafty, false-hearted
egocentric, insincere, deceitful, calculating guileful

Narcissistic - Amorous (histrionic features)
Sexually seductive, enticing, beguiling, tantalizing
glib and clever
disinclines real intimacy
indulges hedonistic desires
bewitches and inveigles the needy and niaeve
pathological lying and swindling

Antisocial - Risk-Taking (histrionic features)
Dauntless, venturesome, intrepid, bold audacious, daring
reckless, foolhardy, impulsive, heedless
unbalanced by hazard
pursues perilous ventures

Last part of prior post was a desire to have you at a psychiatrists office that is part of a university medical school. Team is headed by one or more super stars and you get a bright "up and comer" but have strict back field supervision by huge PD experts. Gota get down to the nitty gritty here.

Ahhhh...Your past guy was a touchy-feely type! You thought he was too timid, not able to handle you. Likely true, however what you need he has got. Says your too cerebral. Perhaps he's just who you want - to feel more! Of course someone who has all that is not "Attila the Hun" by nature. He is saying you need to fix up your "feelers"... Just a thought.

RE having therapist "abandon" you

A bit dejavu-esque. Is that by my own doing? Like, am I subconsciously building these relationships and then breaking them? Hmm...

Long ago I speculated you might not want to be known. Have a high need to remain unknown. So, constantly brush the trail. Keep running so they can't find you. Exercise every strategy to frustrate them and thrown them off track. Here is where I got that from:

Bollas, C in his book Hysteria wrote:The borderline’s attack on links is a psychotic process that eliminates meaning, even if the borderline has a lot to talk about. Repression would seem to eliminate a link, but it is specific: it removes from consciousness a specific sexual mental content. Furthermore, as repression is intended to fail, derivatives of the missing link are always returning to consciousness in displaced form, both in the patient’s narratives and, crucially, in the psychoanalyst’s inner associations as well. Hysterics are unconsciously devoted to communicating themselves to the other, whereas borderlines seek malignant misunderstanding, because it is in the chaos of misalliance that they constitute the object of desire.

OK, Bollas writes for a clinical audience so let me try to decipher.

"The borderline’s attack on links is a psychotic process that eliminates meaning, even if the borderline has a lot to talk about."

Normal transference that emerges in therapy is linked to subconscious "gook". When you look at the transference you have a shot at pulling up the "gook". However with BPD they sometimes actually destroy that otherwise great link, because they don't want to be known.

"Repression would seem to eliminate a link, but it is specific: it removes from consciousness a specific sexual mental content. Furthermore, as repression is intended to fail, derivatives of the missing link are always returning to consciousness in displaced form, both in the patient’s narratives and, crucially, in the psychoanalyst’s inner associations as well."

In a typical psychiatric patient (not just PD but garden variety depression, neurosis, everyone, etc) the link is not obvious to the patient due to repression. Yet, if you "loosen up a bit", study the transference, and the stuff in the loose associations in the semi-conscious, you, as a therapist can stay on the trail down the link into the subconscious and get at that gook.

"Hysterics are unconsciously devoted to communicating themselves to the other, whereas borderlines seek malignant misunderstanding, because it is in the chaos of misalliance that they constitute the object of desire."

This is the "killer". We are in a section of his book were he is comparing HPD to BPD. It's out of date as current thinking in DSM 5 is HPD IS BPD, just a different "flavor". Same with NPD - just a different "flavor". Wind back the clock before this and understand Bollas is trying to be "brilliant" here differentiating between HPD and BPD - getting at the key difference. As of today, just lump both together. Still he makes a brilliant point.

Some people with Cluster B are "are unconsciously devoted to communicating themselves[ to the other. Bollas writing about HPD loved that aspect of treating them. He felt subliminally they were slipping him clues all the time how and exactly where to find links to the gook inside. Frankly, I get this feeling STRONGLY from ALICE, her subconscious wants to help others find her inner self. It like she unconsciously throws out bones for us to find, that lead right to the correct target.

Others, and San's I'd put you in this category (although I must admit things seemed to be changing in you with therapy!!!) of actually working to DESTROY those meaning links! In Bolla's language "borderlines seek malignant misunderstanding. I sort of saw you doing this.

"it is in the chaos of misalliance that they constitute the object of desire."

Must fully admit I don't know exactly what Bollas was driving at here. I know this much - his BPDs had a damn good reason for creating and maintaining "the chaos of misalliance". As far what comes out of that "they constitute the object of desire" I'm totally unclear what he meant. They cause the other to "go mad" so they remain in control, safe, protected and don't have to be really seen or understood?

"Like, am I subconsciously building these relationships and then breaking them? Hmm..."

I'd say that's not real close, it's dead on.

I have to say that while I do agree I'm cluster b, I don't agree with the NPD. I think Therapist never really understood me (though I know that reasoning of "no one understands how special I am!!!1!!111" is an NPD trait). He just saw the desire to break and control people and focused on it. He figured I did it just for the power. I actually usually do it out of my need to be needed/desired. I don't want to break people just because I can (ok, maybe a little).. I want to break them because I want to be special to them. I want them to want and love me, accept me. If they break all their norms for me, they must love me extra special and then they won't leave me. The abandonment issues I have are huge and he never touched on them. When my husband and I fight, the first thing I do is say, "If you aren't happy, LEAVE! Why would you want to stay with someone who you don't love and can't make you happy.". He doesn't understand how I can jump from a simple fight to divorce. I tried to explain to my husband once that it's how it works for me. It's how it always worked. Things got hard for the only two parental men in my life and they left (dad and step dad). It's all I know. When things get hard, flee. BUT! If someone loved me so much that they made exceptions of themselves, they couldn't possibly want to leave me. The control I feel derives from my fear of abandonment and I don't think my therapist ever understood that. Therapist acted surprised when he asked me, "But you get pleasure out of controlling people at work you already control, like those who you're their boss.. right?" and my response was, "No. I would act the same way if they were MY boss, lateral, or under me." Then he kind of stuttered about how I didn't need to meet all 9 criteria to be NPD.

I don't inflate my achievements, infact, I little them. I'm not full of myself. I do think most people are stupid and weak, but I think I'm weak, too, a lot. If I were a stronger person, I wouldn't do some of the things I do. I am weak to myself. I give in and make myself vulnerable which is a weakness. I'm not good enough to be NPD most days.

I don't think I'm disingenuous either. Can I be honest? Therapy made me worse. Before I started going, I had feelings. They didn't always work right, but they existed. I could be happy, sad, sometimes even care. I never did have empathy though. But now... now I just don't feel much any more. It's as though it made me devoid of it all. All I ever feel now is anger and contempt. I hate people. I hate how they can't understand me. I hate that they don't know what's happening inside me. I hate that they expect me to understand them (nice contradiction, right?). I hate pretending to care but I have to pretend to care all the time because a) its my job and b) I'm a good little doll who does what she's told. You may not believe B, but it's true. Much of my life is spent trying to live up to everything. I have to smile, be nice, play fair, care.. and I don't want to do any of it. Therapy made me see this and all of it makes me ANGRY now. I resent having to behave this way to function in society. I would love to be the biitch I am, but then I would break my perfect shell I have created. I am like a Jekyll and Hyde. I can be the coldest person if you annoy me, but I can also be the most loving thing in your life. Sometimes I let myself out (but usually only with my husband (trust maybe?)), but most times I'm stuck being the image of perfect. In this forum I can be more me. I can be the outspoken person I am inside. IRL, I'm not. I'm still a strong personality, but somehow I feel meek also in the real world. Maybe I feel small because I know I'm not me.

I guess it is more likely I'm NPD than HPD because of my looks. NPDs tend to be normal people who think they're better looking and HPDs tend to just be gorgeous, right? I go through stages of back and forth. Sometimes I think I'm cute, sometimes I think I'm awful. I'm not in love with my body, I wouldn't call my body hot, either. I would love to be thinner but it's just not happening. I've resolved to not care because I'm me and that's all you peoples get. You will love it or not. If not, f you.

Since Therapist guy wouldn't ever really give me any fun personality tests to take, I've taken some myself that I could find. Obviously they're not 100% reliable given that I found them online and administered them to myself without training.. But I find the results fun, nevertheless.

NPI- Narcissistic Personality Inventory

Your Total: 30
Between 12 and 15 is average.
Celebrities often score closer to 18.
Narcissists score over 20.

http://psychcentral.com/quizzes/narcissistic.htm

PCL-R

I took the more criminal aimed version of this so I had some 0's on a few questions (never been caught in a crime )

Normal scores a 5-7
AsPD scores over 25-30 depending if you live in the USA or Europe
Scores between 7-25 are the people with PDs
My Score: 20

Machiavellian Personality Test

My score: 94% with high Machs

Test is scored from 0-100%. High Machs constitute a distinct type: charming, confident and glib, but also arrogant, calculating and cynical, prone to manipulate and exploit. (Think Rupert Murdoch, or if your politics permit it, President Clinton.)

True low Machs, however, can be kind of dependent, submissive and socially inept. So be sure to invite a high Mach or two to your next dinner party.

http://www.salon.com/books/it/1999/09/13/machtest

Personality Disorder Test

DISORDER | RATING

Paranoid: Very High
Schizoid: Low
Schizotypal: Moderate
Antisocial: High
Borderline: Very High
Histrionic: Very High
Narcissistic: Very High
Avoidant: Moderate
Dependent: High
Obsessive-Compulsive: Moderate

http://www.4degreez.com/misc/personalit ... er_test.mv

I realize I've rambled here and not answered any of Wisdom's questions but I needed to get it all out. I hope to come back when I settle myself and answer Wisdom's post, too.

- Sans

Wow...that's the most you ever opened up and the most honest ever!

That's a good thing. This therapy thing, is working. You just don't get it yet.

No pain, no gain. Good for you!!!!

@OKHWG

Your an ass dude.

@sans
your not NPD hun. you may have issues with connecting with people and maintaining that connection but quite frankly I just don't see NPD. I'm not even gonna bother going into explaining why, but I just don't see it. Hang in there hun, it is labor, if nothing else you are learning about yourself and are exploring yourself more.

sometimes you make more progress then others.

Sans

to you with the utmost in care and respect

IMHO, as a laymen

(1) RE BPD: Your abandonment fears speak BPD clearly, plus the frustration and emotional exasperation I hear in you periodically. Also, I really resonated with Wisdom's commentary at how BPD's sabotage efforts at uncovering and understanding them...I think I have seen that in you, too.

(2) NPD: I actually think you're NPD dx DOES bear further examination, especially in light of your comments about how you resent stupidity...this a possible indicator of cerebral or intellectual narcissism (as opposed to somatic). Your absence of a relaible father while growing up could have been a source of the injury that is underneath all NPD (you know that I have my own pain that resides in this area).You definately have a coolness to you (and as I have said before I find it attractive...but I have come to realize I have issues with my own cool narcissisim and so perhaps seeing it in you simply resonates within me?). You are seductive, but even though seduction is ultimatley physical yours has a definate cerebral, even intellectual quality to it (although maybe I sense this only because we communicate through writing). But...seductiveness is not limited to HPD, but is also a feature of NPD. You acually ARE very intelligent; I could envision you as a Doctor in the profession you work in now. Maybe NPD can be a function of occupational frustration? I know you like attention, but attention seeking is also a feature of NPD, besides HPD.

(3) RE HPD: Also I've noticed that you don't mention a lot about cosmetics and clothing, stilletos and the whole seductive HPD street and club 'combat kit'. As you mentioned your honest evaluation of yourself doesn't seem to fit the HPD morphology, at least not the classic stripper or exotic dancer body type (although I realize these body types are not mandatory for HPD).
Since the father figures in your life dissappeared relatively early, you don't seem to have experienced the classic father daughter HPD pull-push dynamic. You have never dissociated, that I know of. You aren't dependent (definately not in an infantile way), you are not appeasing. You aren't overly dramatic.

Indeed, you probably have one of the strongest personalites on this forum!

However, although you have a strong and dominant personality, you don't tell easy lies or do the 'set em up knock em down' maneuver. You seem to honest and you carry through with what you say you will consistently. When you are depressed or upset you are genuine: you put your heart on your sleeve. To me, these qualities seem to mitigate against you being a Disingenuous HPD, who in my experience are a lot like their AsPD cousins: masters at lying, manipulation, and deception.

I hear your frustration but I would stay with some form of therapy. For one thing all these PD's and subPD's are so close you could have overlaps in all three so therapy for one probably has some benefit for another. Also, you need to stay in contact with someone - a professional - who has a lot of extensive practical experience in cluster B PD's. A woman therapist might indeed be a refreshing change of perspective.

But even if you are more NPD than HPD please stay over here with us!

Best of health,
O

Hi Stars,

This is very great news. I say keep it up and if you find the dx questionable, keep pursuing the truth. That's what this path is all about. It's not like anyone hands us a dx and then takes us through steps 1-10 to emotional perfection. Though, wouldn't that be wonderful. Rather, it's a searching out process and the goal is the you who exists free of the old wound and coping mechanisms. Don't forget that you're on that path as we type.

Cheers. Can't wait to read about the new girl.

Sans
Then again, a recent tour of the NPD forum has me wondering... you have a certain amount of open warmth and vulnerability I was hard pressed to find over there, although most of them are guys (and boy, some of them seem like really lost, angry dark characters).

So maybe it's like you have 'a minor' in NPD...some traits only. Or, it seems reasonable that, like HPD's, NPD's are continously variable and some are warmer and less narcissisitic than others (?)

The one thing that did stand out in the NPD forum is brains, and as I noted earlier you definately are sharp witted and intelligent.

So roll with it and see where it leads. I don't think any kind of professional therapy is a bad move, 'cause for one thing we all learn from our mistakes.

Peace,
O