Had my first therapy session today!

orion8591 wrote:Then again, a recent tour of the NPD forum has me wondering... you have a certain amount of open warmth and vulnerability I was hard pressed to find over there, although most of them are guys (and boy, some of them seem like really lost, angry dark characters).
So maybe it's like you have 'a minor' in NPD...some traits only. Or, it seems reasonable that, like HPD's, NPD's are continously variable and some are warmer and less narcissisitic than others (?)
The one thing that did stand out in the NPD forum is brains, and as I noted earlier you definately are sharp witted and intelligent.

Hi SansStars

I continue to think that you have more pronounced NPD traits than HPD traits, although I see both PDs displayed in your writing.
I think you won't get the fuller picture of what you have to deal with, Sans, if you focus rather exclusively on HPD; it is the NPD'ishness in you that, I think, makes you distinquishable from the other HPD persons who are currently posting in this HPD forum.

As for the NPD forum, most of the current narcissistic posters are adolescents or young men, most of whom aren't diagnosed, and most (all?) still live at home, at school, or are otherwise supported and dependent on others. They are still 'flying high' with their narcissistic views and ways, and life hasn't yet taught them enough lessons to make them question themselves with any real depth.

I'd suggest that you do a search for the posts of "Tom Crown" from the past, or "narcbolan" (who posts on and off currently), both of whom are older, married, diagnosed, and who show significant insight into their diagnosis, thought patterns and behavior patterns. You'd probably feel a greater affinity with them than you might with the current younger posters. You might also read 'sfguy' - he drops in now and then, is diagnosed PD NOS with significant narcissistic and antisocial traits - some of his posts sound strangely like your posts, Sans. All 3 of these men are intelligent, articulate, accomplished in their jobs and their lives, married and either resigned to the futility of the marriage or working honestly to be a better partner to their wife, and candidly honest about their struggles. You may see some of yourself in some of their posts.

Orion, you might also want to read "Tom Crown", "narcbolan", and to a lesser degree, "sfguy" to get a broader, deeper, flavor of NPD from those who've lived with it for many years, and aren't still thinking that being NPD is just so cool and awesome as do many of the young posters.

Let me know what you think after you've read these posters. Might be good to resurrect some of their posts to which you can relate as well... might give the NPD forum some depth again ...

Lifesong

Orion, V, LS.. Thank you guys, you've given me a lot to think about. This weekend for me has been packed with 12 hour shifts.. this is my 3rd in a row tonight (and work blocked PsychForums recently, boo) so I haven't been able to reply the way your posts deserve. I'm off tomorrow so I can really look into it.

And LS, thanks for the suggestions on peoples to look into! I'm going to do that.

But now... now I'm off to work!

wisdom wrote:Last part of prior post was a desire to have you at a psychiatrists office that is part of a university medical school. Team is headed by one or more super stars and you get a bright "up and comer" but have strict back field supervision by huge PD experts. Gota get down to the nitty gritty here.

LOL. Aww.. I'm a bit flattered you think I need my own team of people and HUGE PD experts

Ahhhh...Your past guy was a touchy-feely type! You thought he was too timid, not able to handle you. Likely true, however what you need he has got. Says your too cerebral. Perhaps he's just who you want - to feel more! Of course someone who has all that is not "Attila the Hun" by nature. He is saying you need to fix up your "feelers"... Just a thought.

Yeah, he was all soft. Doesn't appeal to me. Why do I need to be more emotional? I like being smart. I guess I kind of see not being so cerebral (because too much of it makes me doubt even my own thoughts), but emotional still doesn't appeal to me anymore because emotion just hurt and are more confusing than thoughts.

RE having therapist "abandon" you

A bit dejavu-esque. Is that by my own doing? Like, am I subconsciously building these relationships and then breaking them? Hmm...

Long ago I speculated you might not want to be known. Have a high need to remain unknown. So, constantly brush the trail. Keep running so they can't find you. Exercise every strategy to frustrate them and thrown them off track.

You were correct all those months ago and I knew it then, too. I remember that being why I started to focus on BPD.

OK, Bollas writes for a clinical audience so let me try to decipher.

"Hysterics are unconsciously devoted to communicating themselves to the other, whereas borderlines seek malignant misunderstanding, because it is in the chaos of misalliance that they constitute the object of desire."

This is the "killer". We are in a section of his book were he is comparing HPD to BPD. It's out of date as current thinking in DSM 5 is HPD IS BPD, just a different "flavor". Same with NPD - just a different "flavor". Wind back the clock before this and understand Bollas is trying to be "brilliant" here differentiating between HPD and BPD - getting at the key difference. As of today, just lump both together. Still he makes a brilliant point.

Some people with Cluster B are "are unconsciously devoted to communicating themselves[ to the other. Bollas writing about HPD loved that aspect of treating them. He felt subliminally they were slipping him clues all the time how and exactly where to find links to the gook inside. Frankly, I get this feeling STRONGLY from ALICE, her subconscious wants to help others find her inner self. It like she unconsciously throws out bones for us to find, that lead right to the correct target.

I agree. This is very, Alice. She's always saying things that lead places but doesn't even realize she's doing it.

Others, and San's I'd put you in this category (although I must admit things seemed to be changing in you with therapy!!!) of actually working to DESTROY those meaning links! In Bolla's language "borderlines seek malignant misunderstanding. I sort of saw you doing this.

Yep! That's me. I don't think I was really getting "better" with therapy so much as I just had a new mask to play with. Something else to do. A new face to see and play with. New attention (even though it was paid for). And I could then turn around and play the new victim in here about how I'm never understood.

"it is in the chaos of misalliance that they constitute the object of desire."

Must fully admit I don't know exactly what Bollas was driving at here. I know this much - his BPDs had a damn good reason for creating and maintaining "the chaos of misalliance". As far what comes out of that "they constitute the object of desire" I'm totally unclear what he meant. They cause the other to "go mad" so they remain in control, safe, protected and don't have to be really seen or understood?

Can I take a stab at it? I interpret it as pretty much exactly how I feel. I feed off of the misalliance, the deceit. No one is ever as smart as I am because I lead them into confusion. I desire that. I can twist anything back on someone creating any illusion. But, it's illusion and then the other person can't grasp it and I'm the superior one because I know exactly what it means and they don't!

I had two other posts in here.. one to Orion and one to LS. They got deleted when the board reset today.

Lots has happened to the board in the last couple days.
Many posts are missing in a number of forums. An Admin has quit. Some members have been banned.
The AsPD forum was taken down and then reinstituted, but it's still being worked on.

Sans,

Great posts!

Following selected theme - some BPD's desire / ability...not to be known....

SansStars wrote:

Bollas, C. wrote:"it is in the chaos of misalliance that they constitute the object of desire."

Can I take a stab at it? I interpret it as pretty much exactly how I feel. I feed off of the misalliance, the deceit. No one is ever as smart as I am because I lead them into confusion. I desire that. I can twist anything back on someone creating any illusion. But, it's illusion and then the other person can't grasp it and I'm the superior one because I know exactly what it means and they don't!

Sounds like a potential live "case example" of "Gaslighting", although I hate the term because its too "catch all." While lots of stuff gets tossed into gaslighting, I believe this to be much more narrow (...and hence actionable)

• deceit
• lead them into confusion. I desire that [full, rational awareness and intent to deceive]
• I can twist anything back on someone [twisted in a unique way, for a specific target, with ultra quick & precise timing]
• creating any illusion [hummm....even the illusion of total self grandiosity? Read your post here -- especially around horrible fear of abandonment...]
• the other person can't grasp it [sucker!!!]

Here is the downside

I feed off of the misalliance
- and it feeds off you. That's the price you pay for "misalliance". It sucks you. Misalliance takes huge amounts of psychic energy and concentration. That energy could go elsewhere, very much to your personal benefit!

deceit
- through the above process you momentarily -- in your fleeting, top-of-mind, "here-and-now" consciousness -- feel superior, yet you also know throughout your entire unconscious mind and all "throughout your entire body (being)" that deceit is not truth, which is hands down superior. Hence YOU suffer. No deceit is as perfect and elegant as the actual truth. To deceive them you must deceive part of yourself too. You can profess that you can keep deceit separate, well contained, locked up in its own "locker", but in truth, the deceit can't be kept calm, in its own separate box inside you. You know that. It leaks out, if only in your subconscious. Then it takes constant live energy from that point forward to repress. That energy is "robbed" from the rest of you to service the unconscious guilt/shame.

No one is ever as smart as I am
- This is a horrible unneeded burden! You don't need to be the smart one all the time! Let others be smart most all of the time, and then be inter-dependent. Inter-dependent maximizes the "smarts". [If you need to feel dumb just take an advanced math class at MIT]. You need to have self worth without requiring yourself to be universally the smart one. Being alone at the top of the "smart" pyramid is really just fear masked, and self delusion.

I'm the superior one because I know exactly what it means and they don't!
- No you have just used someone to feel superior. They have paid a horrible price for you to somehow feel "whole". Someone who is not "whole" can never be considered superior. Even with the price they pay to fill your "deficit" you only end up sort of "whole" - far from superior. The superior one is actually more than just "whole" - she generates not only enough to make herself whole but also generates a surplus to just give away others, with no expectation whatsoever of getting a return - yet she is not diminished at all by the giving away. That's the superior one....

Sans, I'm sure you realize I'm fairly OC. It's maladaptive, and an area I've explored in some depth in my own deep therapy many years ago. Yet it still remains a constant management challenge for me even today. My therapist was a terrific guy, a fully ordained Catholic priest that left that vocation, became a full clinical psychologist (top of his class type student), married with a full family, very much a "touchy-feely" type (however also strongly analytic and extreemly well read), all with a titanium knight solid core. Yes, he taught me a lot about myself and psychology in general too. I recorded every session and reviewed each recording in depth in between sessions. I fully applied myself to it all. Best of all, the entire process was contained, and I felt good and knew within myself when the process was complete.

Although its been some years, I remember a session with him vividly. I was describing in some detail specific OC behaviors I was struggling with, clearly communicating how uncontrollable it felt to me, how I felt compulsion to keep repeating doing it, even felt I needed to do more of it, how it felt so damn good on one level, especially as I was fully absorbed (and lost) in it, but I could also see it was clearly getting way out of hand - unbalanced. I circled around all that several times,as only a OC can, cycling between the pleasure (temporary relief of intense anxiety) of the compulsive behaviors, and the pain / anxiety of knowing, on another level, that it was clearly it was unproductive and maladaptive.

He listened intently. He was very present in the room, fully rested, fully attentive to me, focused very much on "our" situation. I trusted him because I knew he was well qualified. He had all the facts, the details, etc. He knew me pretty well psychically, so I was eager for his help, interpretation and illumination here. I could feel him fully "with me" in that moment. I was waiting for his wisdom nugget, and sure enough, I wasn't disappointed.

He just looked at me directly and said with total seriousness, but zero alarm over the situation...

"You have got to stop doing that."

It was just a simple statement of fact. I thought to myself "...it can't be that easy???" I'm sure he read my visceral reaction and just nodded. I said "just stop?? Thinking to myself... f*ck, it can't be that easy, that straightforward, that simple??

He said calmly,

"Yes, it's that simple"

It hit me intensely! I felt like "...he is giving me his full permission to just stop" I felt at that instant very enabled to do just exactly that. It reminded me of people climbing tall mountains in India and seeking the guru's incredible wisdom, only to have them bend forward strike their head on your head, and say something ridiculously simple. Profound ,but so simple you were "mortified" and wanted to say "you have got to be kidding me!!!". I thought to myself ...this guy isn't stupid, he obviously thinks I can just stop doing these things. He believes in my ability to simply do this! WTF, I guess he is right, all I have to do is stop the OC behaviors and this problem is over!...wow am I relieved it wasn't anything serious!

It worked great. It just stopped the OC behaviors. Its not a permanent "automatic" solution, but often in my mind I go back to that vivid therapy session and relive it.. I can see and hear him in there, telling me, like one bright person to another: "you fool...you know exactly what to do...just do it...you have the solution to your problem and it's so simple...just follow through!".

That's my advice to you Sans, on your stuff. It's troubling you very deeply on some level - just stop! You know what you are doing, and you have it inside yourself - every bit of willpower, strength, smarts, etc to just stop doing it. It will feel good when you do....It's just that simple....

WOAH THERE LADY!

I guess it is more likely I'm NPD than HPD because of my looks. NPDs tend to be normal people who think they're better looking and HPDs tend to just be gorgeous, right? I go through stages of back and forth. Sometimes I think I'm cute, sometimes I think I'm awful. I'm not in love with my body, I wouldn't call my body hot, either. I would love to be thinner but it's just not happening. I've resolved to not care because I'm me and that's all you peoples get. You will love it or not. If not, f you.

I'm really hoping this the 'self worthlessness and belittlement' of your HPD side saying this, because I saw your pictures hunny & you are GORGEOUS!!!!
(infact I thought you looked like a younger me, if I can get my hands on older pix I will show you just how much we look alike- k?)

Sans,
I've been really busy with school and doing my own thing when the board when it comes to the boards here lately, I missed your new Dx, but just like the 'mood disorder NOS' thing- whatever you are/turn out to be you're the same wonderful fun loving (perhaps a bit michivious) girl I was having a pillow fight with just a few weeks ago & I think you're very special

Trying to figure yourself is HARD, and once someone figures it out for you, coming to terms with the find can be just as difficult if not moreso.

I suspected as much when I went to my own shrink, that I was Bi polar- how could I be the way I AM and NOT suspect that but when he said BPD/HPD- I couldn't cope and I wasn't gonna listen or look into it for FEAR that he was right.

I searched your recent posts to see where you've been lately, and I see you're out there looking into these things, and sepreading your PD wings into other facets of the disorder & I'm really so PROUD of you for doing that! Not running away for your shrinks ideas, but confronting his findings and looking them straight in the face to identify and examine the possibilities.

I believe that were PD's are concerned it the beliefe that we are all centered on BPD itself, and then run through a mix of all the others (some more dominant than/others more subdued)so the fact that you have a combination of these things is not surprising in the least. We all do

I always thought it was my extreme hypersexuality that lead my shrink to tag as HPD, but as I learn more about the other facets of HPD- I see them strongly inside me NOW, where I didn't (and even denied them) before. My point is that as you journey into these areas and spend time looking and relating to them, you will probably see the same thing happen to you.

It's confusing and complex (hence why they get paid the big bucks- right? ) but you're running TOWARDS the answers, not away from them- and that's so wonderful to see

I miss seeing you on here , but I understand why you're not arround right now whatever you're finding and what ever's going on in that search- don't forget about us (you are after all part HPD too ya know ) and let us know how you're doing- k?

You're a beautiful woman, inside and out- I saw it for myself and it's by no means a delusion that you would ever think that. Whether HPDs are prettier than NPDs, matters not, you've got Histrionic eyes hunny and they sparkle like STARS

Miss you Much
~Ali

Please allow me to do the honor to revive this thread...it is very helpful to me and I think other people may also want to read it...