Who actually has HPD? (janey, scarlett1939, miss meow? …)

note: readers following Masquerade’s story can find a continuation on her new thread:
Home from hospital

Scarlett,

On behalf of myself, and other readers of this board, can’t thank you enough for probing to the depths of your behavior and thought patterns. Your posts are outstanding! Thanks!!!

I have already read them 2-3x and stuff is still percolating up in my mind! I will end up reading them a few more times at least; they are so rich. I also invite you to re read your earlier posts, my response, and even press in deeper, perhaps even drilling in a few more layers. In particular, are there any areas that, on reflection, you find have a bit more emotional charge left on them? Is there any “more” there “inside”?

What intrigues me, haunts me, and challenges me are the similar patterns that are seen across various people posting on HPD behaviors, conscious thoughts and feelings, and the various Non’s first person accounts of dealing directly with them. I can assure you its supremely challenging to drill down to the depths, right along side the postings, while simultaneously drilling into the professional literature that seems relevant (at least at first pass) to what the HPDs are posting about.

Scarlet, I understand you (and many others) have read pretty much all the popular self-help books. I know how many there are, how they initially appear to offer hope, help and guidance yet later after much time and effort prove to be disappointing. I’m doing my best to drill deeper and bypass that popular tripe. What I find is very interesting. Some of the older writings have very best nuggets!

For instance, back in 1882 William James, a then prominent psychologist, wrote some very good things on attention, including several surrounding areas including perception, will, volition, involuntary attention, etc. In one of his most famous lines he wrote:

“What holds attention determines action.”

Ruminate on that statement for a while, particularly in conjunction with HPD. Shivers run up and down my spine.

I’m coming to believe that someone with HPD has both the innate make-up (genetic enablement and predisposition) to enable them to capture and hold involuntary attention, plus they have been raised in an environment where that innate, latent capacity was honed to perfection, as a viable adaptation, that enabled them to survive and prosper in an otherwise very harsh emotional development environment. What that finely honed ability for gaining and “holding attention” delivered was the ability to “determine action” i.e. the ability to control others.

I’m just at the foothills of the research here, but I’m finding some far-flung but exceptionally compelling material on the first few bushwhacks through the territory. When I say far-flung I really mean it! Things like: involuntary attention (fascination), a brilliant 1800’s psychologist, a French philosopher, a naturalist (with hard core psychological research supported, oddly enough by the National Forest Service), the physiology of perception, early philosophers and medical doctors beliefs and writings on Emission Theory (the eye projecting/communicating out in the process of looking/seeing/being seen), some reasonably serious academic study of the beliefs in “the evil eye”, oculesics (the study of eye contact), plus some stuff from a very well read / referenced marriage & sex counselor who has deep and current neuropsychological & brain physiology knowledge – who comes close to reproducing via an entirely different “track” a concept he calls “reflected sense of self” vs. what M Klein was driving at with self psychology and projective identification and what Otto Kernberg calls the “reflective self function”.

What has driven this wide inquiry as been my own brief but striking observation of two girls about age 5 out to attract attention of drivers going by on their street, and things ruminating up from reading your posts. I’m beginning to see some possible patterns but the focus is not yet perfectly clear. What’s more is Melanie Klein’s work, which underlies the “active ingredient” in Otto Kernberg’s therapy recommendations for many of the personality disorders is not at all easily accessed. It’s taking some significant effort to work through her content. I’m also waiting on some books by Jürg Willi.

To make a long story short your posts have been exceptionally inspiring. On a very preliminary basis (remember I’m still very fuzzy here, its early, and my working hypothesis is not really gelled up), where I’d encourage you to probe is how does HPD attracting attention work, on both ends? To “consume” the person, an HPD extracts involuntary attention, and as a result can easily control them. While that all seems “effortless” to the HPD, in reality, hijacking attention like that comes at a huge cost. Initially someone with HPD only sees the benefits it produces for her, but is blind to the costs. Only through reflection do some of the costs start to finally appear.

Masquerade,

I just read your post over on the Domestic Violence - Verbal & Emotional abuse board - Link here: At last l can express my anger

I totally agree with jasmin the admin - its a very illuminating post!

jasmin wrote:Masquerade, good for you! You are right, the way your parents treated you is abusive and very unfair and cruel. It's awful not to let a child develop into a person. You didn't get emotional validation from them or your emotionally abusive partners, but you're getting it from yourself now and that is great. I'm sure others will find your post helpful.

I must admit I loved this line of yours in particular: As a little girl my parents gave me lots of love and approval and material things, but it was all conditional upon me being the perfect pretty little princess.

Connecting with the anger is indeed very therapeutic! What's also great is that you write in such a way that many other HPD sufferers may be able to relate to your journey. You show them there are some real benefits to be had if they can just find a way to overcome their natural resistance to change and forage into that process. Yes, its hard work but look at the terrific upside.

Ok so I have been seeing a therapist for over 2 years now. I have anxiety and depression. I also supper from ADHD. I take Paxil, clonazepam, Ritalin, Bupropion. Now recently my therapist read to me some of the psychologist's diagnosis and in there opinion I had Histrionic Personality Disorder. Now I've done some research and some of the axioms in the DSM. Here are the one that seem to cut close to the bone as it were:

-Physical appearance: Individuals with HPD consistently employ physical appearance to gain attention for themselves.
Now I don't wear fancy clothes. I don't have a mohawk. In fact I think I wear average cloths. Baggy pants and t-shirts mostly. I do make sure when I go out that I'm clean, not like matted hair or smelling like a pile of dirty cloths. I do sweat a lot but I do that because I am over weight and I'm nervous all the time that people are looking at me and thinking that I'm ugly or wondering why I'm sweating so much. When I was working steadily I did enjoy having odd things to my dress. I once wore a pocket watch on me for years. I wore John Lennon type sun glasses. But I don't think I was wearing these things to impress people I was just wearing them because I liked them.

-Speech style: The speech style of patients with HPD lacks detail. Individuals with HPD tend to generalize, and when these individuals speak, they aim to please and impress.
This one confuses me a bit as I do pride myself on having a very good vocabulary and the ability to speak a great deal on many and varying topics. So when it says "lacks detail" I am wondering if it means a HPD speaks in such a way to avoid being specific. See I hate to rule out options and when I describe something I may describe something vary detailed but leave options for other possibilities open because I don't claim to be an authority on anything I'm just going on what I know so I may try to describe something as detailed as I feel comfortable doing, but does that make my speech less detailed? I know I can generalize and do, but usually for comedic effect. One of the things I try to do when I'm nervous is I try to make people laugh and bring a good mood about the discussion. I feel this does 2 things, it helps not only me but other relax and enjoy the conversation and it diffuses my anxiety. I know I tend to want to impress people but I just want to put the best version of me out there, as I would think anyone would want to do. Believe me if I do my best for a good first impression and the recipient isn't having it. I can withdraw and try to conduct myself in a more muted way as to no be an overwhelming blowhard.

-Dramatic behaviors: Patients with HPD display self-dramatization and exaggerate their emotions.
Now this one cut really close. Because I don't like to think I'm some sort of Drama queen. But its a description that has popped up through out my life. I was nominated as Most Dramatic in High School, but I lost to someone else. And honestly I didn't care. But I know when I am trying to be funny and diffuse tension I can make overly dramatic statements for comedic effect, but I would never believe those exaggerations.

-Suggestibility: Other individuals or circumstances can easily influence patients with HPD.
Now this I know to be true because I can be moved by others. I feel for others and I want to help people. I can also become frustrated over simple things like a slow moving internet connection. I can also become easily excitable over new things or meeting new people. Once I help my land lord take one of her famous art friend down to the train station in a town I lived. And I was so excited to be able to talk to this person that upon pulling into a one way street I completely forgot what street I was pulling on and ended up starting to turn into the wrong way. I managed to get the car going in the correct flow of traffic, but I was so embarrassed I didn't say two words to the artist after that. I was mortified. So I concede that. Plus when I was younger I would always go and do what my friends wanted to do I never really made a protest over any of their suggestions.

-Overestimation of intimacy: Patients with HPD overestimate the level of intimacy in a relationship.
Now this is something I use to do as a child. I would overestimate friendships to the point where I was constantly being disappointed because it wasn't on that level I thought it was. Sometimes I would get jealous if a friend of mine made friends with others and not included me. Or if I really liked a teach at school I would think we were friends rather than just a student teach relationships. I always wanted to be more than just an average friend or just another student. I craved the idea that somehow we had something different. It took me a while to understand that if you get along in class, it didn't mean you'd get along outside of class. I remember this one time in 5th Grade. I didn't want to play with the kids because they always picked on me and I would hang out with my teacher asking questions about the days lessons and trying to learn. She turned to me and said, Why don't you go and play. This isn't what recess is for. I apologized and walked away and I remember feeling so hurt by that because I felt I had over stepped a line and made her feel uncomfortable.And now that I think about it there was this one time in College I think I did the same thing to a professor I really liked and thought we had a great report. One day she came in and we were going around the class talking about someone's short story and it was clear that no one had read the assignment. I know I didn't. I wasn't being malicious I just didn't get to it. Anyway she left the class 20 minutes after it started, not even saying if she was coming back. I felt I had disappointed her and called her office later that day to apologize for disappointing her. The thing is after that she stopped being my adviser and she stopped talking to me all together outside class. We use to be able to say hi and joke around a bit but after that phone call I think she got weirded out by me. But I respected her decision. I was confused and all I wanted was a straight forward answer as to why she changed her attitude around me. I wasn't mad. I kept things very professional afterward. I didn't call her or email her or anything. I took another Adviser and just let her be. I guess I was hoping we could have been friends.
But see that's why I'm in constant worry about what people think about me. I just wanted to offer my apologies and have that student teacher moment where you reconcile disappointment and you work to earn respect. But I guess I over stepped a line. Anyway I never got to speak to her again. She was a great teacher and I'm sad that it had to be such a blemish. It haunts me.

So that's five of the eight axioms. Which I guess means I have it. But reading these post many seem to have trouble with relationships mainly in that there is a desire towards infidelity. And the relationships I've had I was vaguely infelicitous once, out of 6 relation ships I've had. And the one I was infelicitous in was my second relationship. Besides that I have been all in for my relationships. After my first relationship I was rather controlling, but I had never had a relationship before. And you know with your first relationship you have all these high minded ideals like this is the one I'll have forever. There isn't another one for me, etc etc. But I think that naivety not a socio-manipulative thought.

So I am confused and I don't know. Part of me sees the rational side of this diagnosis. I can see where the therapist is driving at. But I couldn't describe myself as an emotional vampire, or wanting to toy with people for gratify myself. I want to listen to people and help them the best I can. I don't know I seem to be reading a lot of extremes and I feel a bit lost. So if anyone could offer their opinion, I'm listening.

Oh also on the sweating issue. If I have a biological cause to HPD through the adrenal gland could that be triggering my flight or fight senses and thus making me sweat more than normal?

Hey DWBear,

Wisdom doesn't post here anymore. He's an excelent source of information, and a very compassionate man on top of that; so it is a shame that he's no longer here. I do miss him...

dwbear wrote:"I have anxiety and depression. I also supper from ADHD. Now recently my therapist read to me some of the psychologist's diagnosis and in there opinion I had Histrionic Personality Disorder."

Personality disorder is a big scary word and it's enough to make you go WTF? do a bunch of research and try and find a way out of having one. It's easy to set yourself aside from it, and because it's not always a perfect fit (everything is different for each person with a PD) you see were you don't fit the criteria and hold on to that in order to question your Dx.
This is very natural- I did it myself.
When I was diagnosed as being Boerderline & Histrionic Personality Disorders combined- I looked at it, saw what it was and said, "Hell NO! I'm not that crazy!" and wouldn't except my Dx at all.
Like you, I had been Dx'd with a few other things prior to reciving my BPD/HPD Dx. None of them ever made me flinch, but personality disoder really scared me a lot!!!!
I'm not sure if it's the same for you; but PD's were way to much for me even consider. I lived my life under the assumption that I was misdiagnosed and more than likely was bipolar (because of my extreme highs and lows) for about 3 years before the PD's caught up with me and I had to face them.
Many of us who have been diagnosed this way (without suspecting we had a PD before it was presented us by a professional) react this way. We look into it, see some similarities but at the same time, many differences to the criteria.
It's a difficult thing to except is basically what I'm saying...

I'm not sure I can say much that can solidify what your therapist said; but if she said HPD then chances are it means something to a degree- right?


One thing with PD's is that you'll often see that not all the pieces 'fit' and you don't melt into the classic mold 100%. Everything is varriable (not the same for each person) and forever shifting. The things that are somewhat consistant over a life time are so transient that you don't really pick up on them until deep self investigation and brutal self honesty. Or when your shrink points them out to you; but even that is near impossible to see until you open your eyes and brave the experience and journey of self honesty.


All disordered minds evelove to a point of what I like to call 'the delussional bubble' (it really is a bubble if you think about it because we're in there and unable to experience the real world around us because we're so caught up in our own neurosis and self absorbed/self serving instant need fulfillment- it's all we've ever known) when you're in the bubble you can't see things clearly. "You're not the problem- the world is the problem. You do everything you can to try and get it right, but some increadable force keeps pulling you down. People are unfair and you're always struggling to prove your position, or you just completely give up on your position and don't care about anything anymore." Those are some of the thoughts and mechanisms of our mind when we're in the bubble, and it's a terrible way to live; but because it also shelters us from other outward harm, it's also a 'safe place' to remain in that haze of disorder...

Breaking the bubble is hard, and it's scary too. You have to pop that film of 'safety' which allows for everything else to be someone's fault and not 'bad' about you- to look inside and see the truth.
The truth is not pretty, and it's very hard to except; but it is true and once you reach the point of exceptance- you can move on to point of understanding and forgiving yourself.

It really is a process.

dwbear wrote:So I am confused and I don't know. Part of me sees the rational side of this diagnosis. I can see where the therapist is driving at. But I couldn't describe myself as an emotional vampire, or wanting to toy with people for gratify myself. I want to listen to people and help them the best I can. I don't know I seem to be reading a lot of extremes and I feel a bit lost. So if anyone could offer their opinion, I'm listening.

I can't offer you an opinion on whether or not your HPD; but I can offer you some help to try to figure it out.

Read the posts of the other HPD's in the forum and see where you see similarities, what touches you, what sounds familiar and just use their words and experiences to learn more about YOURSELF!
Start at the beginning- when reading their stories, and you'll see much of the same confussion and questioning you have here and you'll find many of the answers, and realizations we've made along the way as well.

There's quite a few HPD's here and we all share the same mentality (to a degree) but not all our actions/behaviours are the same, and some of us are certainly more extreme than others.
I invite you to read my posts if you like; but bare in mind I'm one of the more extreme ones and you may not be able to identify with my behaviours even though we share the same mentality. so I would recomend looking into other posters instead.
Female HPD's:
- Masquerade
- Scarlett
- NoWhereGirl
- ExpressiveCreative
- GoodbyeNormaJean
Male HPD's:
- OtherHPD
- ThisIsLabor (earlier posts under 'mistaben')
and few more that I either don't know or have forgotten at the moment; but all of these HPD's are making progress and that's the important part!

There's not a lot of information or research on HPD unfortunately- the psych community seems to not have taken much interest in it for some reason (which is unfortunate) but BPD holds a similar construct of how the disorder is formed, how it works, ect in the neurotic aspects of HPD, so you can look into that if you like; but I would honestly start with looking at some of these posters and read their journey from the beginning, to see how you identify.

Also, Wisdom has some great research added to these boards, so definitely have a look at all of that as well. Orion is another, as well as RealityCheck, are those who have some great stuff on PD's from a more clinical side of it all.

To search usuers posts, find these names by scrolling through the forum pages, click on the user name, and then click "search users posts" go to their first post in all cases (pages for some of us) and read a few of the posts from each of us to see just where you are right now before you press on through it all- k? (HPD's are known for being 'wordy' so to read everyone's life story could take a long time- so just read a bit from the beginning of everyone and take it slow)

Side Note:
Some of the posters which we call NON's are XBF's and family of those with HPD, so they are very hurt, very angery, and at times it comes out in their posts, and at us. Don't let that stop you from your part in the journey, and don't take it to heart. They're not 'bad' people, they're hurt people and we remind them someone who caused them great pain and that can at times cause some friction.


I wish I could offer you more than this, but all I can offer you is my understanding and compassion while you figure this out.

We're all here for you.

Gluck!
~Alice

Me! (raises hand) Yep. Sorry I don't have time to read through all these posts right now. Just wanted to let you know you aren't alone. (((hugs)))

wisdom wrote:Who actually has (or had) HPD? (janey, scarlett1939, miss meow? …).

Doesn't matter if they are no longer currently posting - would like to read the first person accounts.

Have seen very good posts from janey, scarlett1939 and miss meow - are there others? Would hate to miss any of the great classics.

right here, diagnosed histrionic.

another forum member around here that was a histrionic was "mistaben", no correlation to me or anything. we just happened to have the exact same signoff pattern and all.

- Labor.

...

oh i see alice already introduced me. - that woman right there, smart compassionate well developed and ALWAYS an added resource here. seriously.

- Labor.

wisdom wrote:This is a long post but its 90% verbatim quotes from you. Use this to Think and Reflect, then journal!

Quickie review
Here are the two things to “fight” off
The entitlement/self-centeredness schema refers to a core set of beliefs that one is entitled to take or receive whatever is wanted irrespective of the cost to others or society
(Sperry, p 153)

The essential feature of this schema is the belief that one is entitled to whatever one wants irrespective to the cost to others or of what might be regarded as unreasonable. This Schema is likely to develop in the context of parents who overindulge or who do not encourage the child to develop self-responsibility. Alternatively, this schema can develop as a compensation for feelings of deprivation, social undesirability, or defectiveness. Subsequently, individuals who develop this schema tend to be self-centered and have an exaggerated view of themselves and their rights. They also tend to have significant empathic deficits and tend to treat others carelessly.
(Sperry, p 31)

“I’m interesting and exciting”
“Intuition and feeling are more important than rational planning”
“If I’m entertaining others won’t notice my weaknesses”
and, particularly,
“To be happy I need other people to pay attention to me”
(Sperry, p 155 citing Beck, Freeman & Associates, 1990)

and

The emotional deprivation schema refers to the core set of beliefs that one’s need for nurturance and emotional support will never be met by others
(Sperry, p 153 which refers to Bricker, Young & Flanagan, 1993 and Young, 1994)

The essential feature of this schema involves the core belief that one’s desire for a normal degree of emotional support will not be met by others. Individuals who have internalized this schema tend to be deprived of nurturance, protection or empathy. Deprivation of nurturance involves an absence of attention, affection, and warmth from others. Absence of strength, direction, or guidance from significant others leads to deprivation of protection. In the absence of understanding, listening, self-disclosure, or mutual sharing of feelings and experiences with others, these individuals experience deprivation of empathy. These individuals have usually experienced some emotional neglect in early childhood. They may present as cold, demanding, or withholding, and tend to choose significant others who are unwilling or unable to provide emotional support. [wow, that last phrase about the mates doesn’t sound like the typical Non here…] (Sperry, p 27)

“I’ll never get enough love and attention”
“I’m only capable of having superficial relationships”
(Sperry, p 155 citing Young 1994)

sorry quotes aren't working and too lazy to type it in anymore. this is the kind of stuff he posted all the time. - the above right there, describes me. especially lately. and i've been noticing it alot in myself, and honsetly... I've been ok with it! the people in my life are pissing me off and I rather get rid of them then change my life and me anymore, and that includes my family members. (*sighs* I'm probably going to hell I can see....)

- Labor.

thisislabor wrote:oh i see alice already introduced me. - that woman right there, smart compassionate well developed and ALWAYS an added resource here. seriously.

- Labor.

Awww...

Thanks Labor

im diagnosed hpd

? You forgot about me?


Labor!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Hello.