YOUR OPINION-Is Hpd Worse Than Bpd/Npd?

Hi,

Do you guys think hpd is worse than bpd?

What, in your opinion...would make one worse than the other? I can imagine opinions here vary, and I must admit that whilst I thought initially that bpd was worse (in a relationship setting), I now begin to wonder if hpd is worse.

You see, hpd, of all the pd's (in relationship settings), is in many ways like a UFO. It is not understood or seen as much. In my line of work, I have never seen a pure hpd until my last ex. She seemed "uncut". And reading some of your stories here, I would wonder what is worse.

If bpd is worse, then why do you think so? The bpd is no where near as seductive as the hpd, but the bpd can earn more respect, trust, and can dig her hooks into you for much longer periods of time. The hpd, whilst she is flamboyant, may look prettier, and projects the perfect illusion at the beginning, everything they do quickly falls apart...only their beauty (if they have it) remains.

The bpd, on the other hand, goes back and fourth, back and fourth, has more empathy, (or at least fakes empathy) and yet she rips and tears ever so softly as she goes along.

So, the hpd appears sex material more.

The bpd seems relationship material more.

In fact, bpd relationships have been proven to last way longer and bring way more pain...yet they also have their good times too. The hpd's seem to fall apart, and like a bumble bee, they quickly move from one flower to the next. But whilst they leave, they tear a big whole in the person's heart.

These are just my thoughts as I write. I'm not trying to be correct or incorrect, but just trying to shape up how I feel about the two. I have always argued hpd should not be cluster 'b'. Cluster 'b' is the worst of the worst (as you know there are also different categories of pd's...such as cluster 'a' and cluster 'c'), and it was always my opinion that hpd should be removed from cluster 'b' and put into a different group.

Until I met mine...

Until I came here...

Can anyone please tell me the greatest dangers of hpd? Why do YOU think it should be cluster 'b'? You know, if you study its traits, it seems similar to bpd...minus a few traits (for example there is no "cutting" trait of the hpd).

How dangerous is hpd. Why do you think its so dangerous. I once thought of them as seductresses, and well, I always liked seductive women...as they are everywhere.

Just some thoughts...not necessarily facts.

Do you think many hpd's are in fact bpd's and not hpd's. Or, are many hpd's npd's and not hpd's (look at the correlations of symptoms of hpd/npd!).

Please tell me your thoughts and opinions...

You've asked an interesting question, jmac.

I think (and I guess more knowledgeable people like Normal will agree) that all the Cluster B disorders are part of a continuum.

IMHO, BPD is a really painful disorder, not just for the partner, but more so for the person who has BPD. To be in a state where your sense of self is in complete disarray, must be really painful. I don't know how BPDs feel, but my logical reasoning says, it must be a real pain. You just need to go to the BPD forum to understand it. Partners often feel sorry for their BPD partners, while also feeling angry - conflicted emotion.

HPD on the other hand is not really painful for the person with HPD. In this case, the sense of self is taken from the outside and its parasitic and narcissistic, but its not in complete disarray - its an appropriation. This is why partners don't typically feel sorry for their HPD ex-es.

My feeling is that HPDs who feel pain, don't really feel pain from the disorder or from their own state. They only feel pain when a partner leaves them as it brings out their abandonment issues to the fore. On the other hand for a person with BPD, its a daily fight within themselves, whether the partner is there or not, and abandonment is just a part of the other myriad problems they face with their inner emptiness.

Yes, many HPDs may have co-morbid BPD traits and typically the low-functioning HPD will probably be on the BPD spectrum. The high-functioning HPD is probably co-morbid with narcissistic or even with anti-social traits and will be on that spectrum.

Many of the stories you read here of absolutely cruel devaluation, rage, cheating and lack of empathy are probably stories of partners who have unwittingly come up against an HPD with anti-social or N traits. As a P/N, I recognize some of my own kind in these stories. This kind of woman will poise as the ultra-feminine but have masculine urges inside. It will be very difficult to get such a person to therapy. If such a person was not a woman, but a man, they would probably be a malignant Narc. Pronounced characteristics to note would be impulsiveness, impetuousness, risk-taking behavior, and the ability to argue aggressively without empathy.

On the other hand, some of the ones described as severely unstable HPDs with a lot of mood swings and the potential for suicide are probably on the BPD spectrum. While this person is also posing as the female in distress, their masculine urges will not be as pronounced. This kind of HPD is more likely to seek therapy if things in life don't work out. Pronounced characteristics to note would be mood swings, great fear of abandonment, needy and clingy behavior and passive-aggressive manipulation.

I can't say about male HPDs, but I would guess they will also have these two variants.

These are just my observations.

I think there is an old post about the types of HPDs. And I am sure more knowledgeable people will be able to provide better explanations and references for the above.

searchfortruth!

Thank you for some excellent feedback!

You know, many would wish for an actual professional to jump on this topic, and yet the professionals haven't actually lived with them or experienced their cruelty (although I did for awhile). This is why my field is as ignorant as it is informative.

Anyway, thank you very much, and once again...just F.Y.I.--you sure don't seem like a "n" to me. I've known them, talked with them, worked with them, and reasoned with them.

Consider, for example, your closing statement:

These are just my observations.

and...

And I am sure more knowledgeable people will be able to provide better explanations and references for the above.

SFT..."n's" DO NOT speak like this! What an 'n' says goes...for the most part.

In fact, consider your opening statement:

You've asked an interesting question, jmac.

"N's" DO NOT speak like this! Instead, THEY ask the interesting questions. Plus, even if they were an 'n' that commented differently than you "opened" your response, a typical 'n' would NOT give the credit to another of asking an interesting question.

Then, you also said:

IMHO, BPD is a really painful disorder

Hold on, my friend...an 'n' saying, "In my "humble" opinion?". NOT LIKELY--

An 'n' is somthing else, and with all due respect--although you know you more than anyone--you are WAY unlikely to be an 'n'.

One thing they teach us is to study "language construct". For example, when you said, "IMHO"...this is called a "language softener", and 'n's' hardly ever use them! Because what an 'n' says or thinks goes.

Anyway, a lot more could be said about this...but thank you very much for your feedback.

Cheers.

BTW...who convinced you that you had so many 'n' traits? All of us have them (this is fact and resources can be posted). Even the bible says:

"Love your neighbor as yourself".

Nothing wrong with loving you, being down with YOU, and believing in YOU!

All the best,

j

jmac - I don't want to derail this thread but on your comments:

I am trying my best to give up some of my bad traits. These days, my therapist has been coaching me on "non-judgemental listening" and "inserting logical modesty qualifiers" into my speech and writing ha ha. My normal mode is to speak rarely, and if I do, I speak as if its a command, which can't be argued against.

I get fortnightly homework to do this and that includes implementing it in what I write on this forum lol. If you are noticing good things in my writing, it just means that I am being a good student. So, what you see here is my therapist's "nurture" as against my true nature.

However, as some will tell you, I sometimes fail miserably, especially when I am unable to control my behavior. (Normal and Lifesong will tell you if you ask them ...)

Coming to BPD/HPD - well the problem, as you say, is that while BPD has been studied a lot, HPD is not so well studied. Infact literature on HPD is limited. It is not a disorder for which women or men seek treatment, generally.

jmac wrote:Do you guys think hpd is worse than bpd?

Hey there Jmac

I agree with Search for Truth - I'm not sure that HPD in it's purest form actually exists. I think these behaviours are all part of a spectrum that we 'call' cluster B and that spectrum is split (sometimes arbitrarily) into 5 chunks so that we can work towards better understanding people. I don't know if this helps (and it's only a laywoman's view because I don't have any knowledge of the application of the DSM, or any training in Psychology whatsoever, so it could be a load of old cobblers) but see what you think - this is something I wrote on another thread when I was thinking about it a lot? And if you want to look at Millon's subtypes they are here:

http://www.millon.net/taxonomy/summary.htm

I have often thought that the distinctions between PDs is arbitrary. Millon’s subtypes are a better indication of how the Cluster works and he also argues that it is rare an individual falls solely into one category.

The DSM describes behaviour which seems appropriate to different personality types (such as the Jungian types for example) but I think you could argue that all this behaviour stems from the same issue. You could say this about any human response, for example when it beings to rain? Some people will start running to escape getting wet, others will have an umbrella handy immediately or put their bag over their head. Some people won’t care and will carry walking at a leisurely pace, enjoying the rain on their face. Some will curse the heavens as if God is raining on them purposefully. I suppose it depends on their ‘personality’? And their behaviour can change on a day to day basis, dependent on mood, or on if they’ve just had their hair done, or if they’re carrying the bag with the umbrella in it!

At the bottom of the Cluster B disorders seems to be Anxiety: - mainly the anxiety caused by the knowledge that the world is not kind or supportive, but cruel and vindictive and capricious. The individual learns this pretty early in life when their primary care-giver (mostly) shows that they cannot be relied upon, that their love comes at a price, that the individual is only a toy and not a real person with feelings of their own that really matter. So they are always ‘under-attack’.

The anxiety provokes different reactions dependent on the personality of the child and the parent, and dependent on the nature of the ‘abuse’. So when he learns the world is a hostile place and this incites his anxiety:

• The AsPD undermines it and fights fire with fire, hostility with hostility. He shows the world that he doesn’t care!

• The Borderline turns the anxiety back into themselves, harming themselves either physically or through their emotional incontinence

• The Histrionic tries to woo the world with seduction and sex so that it plays nice

• The Schizoid cuts his losses and withdraws

• The Narcissist convinces himself that the world doesn’t matter – ergo the hostility doesn’t matter because he is above it

Really they are all just reacting to the rain in different ways aren’t they, dependent on their personality (and that must be dependent on their age and circumstance). With that in mind though it would be perfectly understandable if an individual had different responses at different times.

All the DSM describes is the way that they usually respond – the way that they believe works best based on their own experiences. Normals do exactly the same thing – it’s just that as far as Psychology is concerned the way they deal with the rain is healthier and more conducive to having happy relationships and a meaningful work life. But when their responses don’t work they are just as prone to adopt maladaptive ones. It’s more a measure of extremity than anything else: - they might withdraw from the world for a weekend whilst the Schizoid does it for a lifetime. It’s the same umbrella at the end of the day; the Normal just puts its down when it stops raining?