When you asked "why did she/he love you"? What did they say?

TatteredKnight wrote:I've been finding myself less drawn to this forum, though, as my life's moved on. I really can't overemphasise how much my wife has improved since I started resolving my own issues, taking responsibility for myself and my relationship, and basically growing up and becoming 'the man' in my marriage. There are definitely cases of severely mentally ill women who rain chaos and destruction down upon hapless males - but if my experience (and others have had similar) is anything to go by, 90% of the symptoms of HPD are merely the natural result of a spoilt, uncontrolled child-woman in a relationship with an insecure, effeminized boy. Neither of them have quite finished growing up, and neither is yet equipped to handle adult life and relationships. Once the man deals with his issues, he will, just by being himself and being a mature, integrated male, lead the woman towards being a mature, healthy female.

What you say above makes sense. I've been really helped from your posts and in fact stumbling upon your "TK' Guide to Married Life" post is what led me to this forum in the first place.

Would you say then that a woman with HPD can be loyal in a relationship? That is if you set boundaries and follow through as you mentioned in the above post, writing, "She has to KNOW you are ready and willing to walk away for keeps if she breaks any relationship ground rules. I can't stress enough how important it is that you NEVER let her break your boundaries without consequences. If you train her to view your boundaries as empty threats, then it's your fault when she's surprised that you won't take her back after she cheats."

Am I fool to be looking for hope?

TK - Nice to hear from you mate. Like you I have now become an infrequent visitor to the forum and an even infrequent poster. Nice to know your marriage is going good.

There are definitely cases of severely mentally ill women who rain chaos and destruction down upon hapless males - but if my experience (and others have had similar) is anything to go by, 90% of the symptoms of HPD are merely the natural result of a spoilt, uncontrolled child-woman in a relationship with an insecure, effeminized boy. Neither of them have quite finished growing up, and neither is yet equipped to handle adult life and relationships. Once the man deals with his issues, he will, just by being himself and being a mature, integrated male, lead the woman towards being a mature, healthy female.

I completely agree with this. Once the man has worked on his issues, he will be able to lead his woman. It is possible he realizes that this woman is just not for him, in which case he should exit the relationship, since this means that there was no "real" basis for the relationship anyway. However, if there is any real basis, then resolving your own issues and becoming the mature and in-control-of-yourself male is what works.

Recently my first long term GF, a BPD called me up to tell me that it was a mistake that she had then decided to leave me and get married to her husband. That she has been missing me all these years and blah, blah. I think she was testing the waters. I set the boundary - I told her she was married and had responsibility for her kid now and I will not entertain her complaints against her husband at all and that what's private between them both shouldn't be discussed with me. She should go to therapy both for her as well as her husband. From her statements of remorse it doesn't seem to me her "character" has essentially changed.

My last relationship partner and ex HPD seems to be still in the "hate-period" against me. Still trying to turn my friends against me. She is married now. I am complete NC (almost 8 months now) and wish her the best. Again no change in her "character", and it doesn't bother me anymore. Her husband should read TK's guide.

I have slowly started to get into a new relationship. Taking it slow. The girl was decent to start with, but recently I have noticed some "orange" flags (not red yet). One of them is impulsiveness and restlessness. Again, I am setting my boundaries - have told her to work on herself and not look to me to solve this for her, though I will be there for her. She wants to join dance classes and I have encouraged it. At this point seems to me that her essential intrinsic "character" is good. So I trust her. Lets see what the future holds. She seems normal, but then they all do in the beginning, so being careful.

Points I have changed about myself:
1. Constant evaluation of my own needs, while still remaining empathetic.
2. Setting boundaries and enforcing them. Willing to walk away if demands are unreasonable.
3. Not willing to take up "saving" someone. Will not be the "knight-in-shining-armour".
4. Willing to retain my independence while still accommodating others. But not becoming co-dependent and completely enmeshed in making anyone else happy for my own happiness.
5. Keeping a relationship equal, reciprocal and one of mutual respect. Not craving for "ideal" love and the drama of an unbalanced relationship.

Would you say then that a woman with HDP can be loyal in a relationship? That is if you set boundaries and follow through as you mentioned in the above post, writing, "She has to KNOW you are ready and willing to walk away for keeps if she breaks any relationship ground rules. I can't stress enough how important it is that you NEVER let her break your boundaries without consequences. If you train her to view your boundaries as empty threats, then it's your fault when she's surprised that you won't take her back after she cheats."

Principled Man -

I am sure TK will respond to this better. Here is my take -

Your relationship partner is not the same person as TK's wife. Yes, their behaviors may be common, but if you read TK's posts, his evaluation was that his wife was not as destructive as many of the other partners reported on posts in this forum. Certainly my ex was more destructive.

So, you are the best person to know if your partner can be loyal. Question is - can you trust her?

If you can trust her, and you feel you can enforce boundaries like TK has mentioned, then and only then, should you remain and work it out. If you can't trust her at all, then you need to set your boundary and be willing to walk away, if the boundary is crossed at all.

The essential part is to work on yourself first. Get the emotional distance and perspective. Only when you feel balanced and in-control as a man (which is not easy to do, though you might feel you already are), can you really evaluate the situation. Only if you feel there is a "proper" reason for you to be in this relationship and that you really like this person for who she is, and not because of any lacking in you, should you consider this relationship.

At this point you are doing well to keep her away with NC. Work on yourself first, use this forum and when you feel confident that you have the right perspective, you will yourself know what to do.

Remember, TK's success in his marriage is no guarantee for your success. People differ in relationships and so does the dynamics of the relationship itself. So use TK's success to improve yourself first, and not as a hopeful excuse to get back into the relationship. That (and I think TK will agree) is not the intention of his guide.

Hi TK,

Glad you're still around. I agree with much of what you say about both parties growing up, but want to add my voice here in saying that this is certainly not representative of all the cases on this board. If you recall my story, I'm actually one of the few people that DID (falteringly) walk away at the first clear crossing of the boundary. It was this setting of boundaries that made her run - she even told me once that it scared her that there were really people like me. This was shortly after a discussion about professional matters - we are both in the legal profession, but she is a notary. In my country, the position of notary is the highest position of trust one can hold and the stamp of a notary testifying to a fact bears great evidential weight in our courts - to the extend that it is sometimes almost unassailable. As for myself, I'm just a lawyer and as a result a commissioner of oaths. She was shocked that I would not testify to having checked some document corresponds with another without seeing the original document, and she told me that she even fakes clients' signatures on a regular basis, because it's in their interest and it will take them too long to come to her office. The remark then went a bit wider than the professional context though, and she looked as me as though I was an alien of sorts and openly and directly told me that it scares her that there are REALLY people like me. In public, she would of course defend honesty and integrity and she will actually profess to being one of the most honest people in the world. As part of this, she is very active in 'being a good christian' and being seen as such.

While she was in the acute 'I can normally cope, but life is just pushing me down at the moment' phase, I naturally cut her more slack - as I still believe was proper. One should help another carry their UNUSUAL loads, but not their EVERYDAY loads. You don't 'rescue' someone from not wanting to get up and go to work, but you DO support someone whose entire familiy were just wiped out by a suicide bomber (just extreme hypothetical scenarios to make the point). In the latter case, you will in fact accept some behaviours or throughlessness that you normally wouldn't.

What I realized in thinking about your question, and you should see that from my response as well, is that the things I value tend to be the results of choices people make, rather than something they are simply born with. Yes, I suppose I could be 'shallow' too in the sense that, as I said, I would prefer a prettier girl to someone exactly the same who is less pretty. To be brutally honest, I probably couldn't enter a relationship with someone who is downright stupid, though I have not really come across many such people in my life and if I do, it would not be something I hold against them or look down on them for - simply something that would make that type of companionship hard for me. In the end, character, the result of a lifetime of choices of doing things right or doing things easy, is what impresses me. Even where there is no 'lifetime of', I highly respect the attempt to be that. Your original question was what the difference was, and that is my answer - the person and their character, vs. the package and how the world perceives them / will perceive me as a result of being with them. In the end, I know people do what they do and become who they are based in part on their experiences, but I also now many people who had things much worse than others, who fought through incredibly hard circumstances, but kept (and in fact strengthened) their character. The only real explanation I could find is that, for some people, being a certain type of person is important, while for others it's more important to be seen to be this type of person. I would like some feedback from others on this, especially those suffering from HPD-like symptoms: do you sometimes secretly believe that everybody else is faking it, and you are doing it just like them, only better? Do you believe that these are the rules of the game - everybody understands it and plays by it - and do you actually find it really hard to believe that some people are genuine?

I do not mean these questions as an accusation; I'm really trying to understand.

Best regards to all.

Principled Man wrote:Would you say then that a woman with HPD can be loyal in a relationship? That is if you set boundaries and follow through as you mentioned in the above post [...] Am I fool to be looking for hope?

There's no way to answer that without knowing your woman. I think maybe you need to look at it in a different way: First, rather than seeing her as "a woman with HPD", just see her as a woman. Will she cheat? I don't know. What I do know is that once you set and enforce healthy boundaries, it's up to her to respect those boundaries. If she doesn't, she loses you. That's something I had trouble with at first; I felt I must be doing something wrong because all of the boundaries I was setting were "...or I'll leave you" type boundaries. I now realise that was just because our relationship was in such a mess. Once you've got things halfway functional again, boundaries can be a lot more subtle and often don't even need to be voiced (ie. "if you speak to me in a cruel or abusive manner, I will leave the room for 15 minutes" type things, after a couple of times enforced she'll make the connection and think "hey, I have to treat him with some respect if I want him to listen").

You're not a fool to look for hope, but you have to be willing to accept that it may not work. All you can do is get yourself in order and see if she follows suit.

newtohpd wrote:Points I have changed about myself:
1. Constant evaluation of my own needs, while still remaining empathetic.
2. Setting boundaries and enforcing them. Willing to walk away if demands are unreasonable.
3. Not willing to take up "saving" someone. Will not be the "knight-in-shining-armour".
4. Willing to retain my independence while still accommodating others. But not becoming co-dependent and completely enmeshed in making anyone else happy for my own happiness.
5. Keeping a relationship equal, reciprocal and one of mutual respect. Not craving for "ideal" love and the drama of an unbalanced relationship.

Hey, long time no see! These are excellent goals for personal growth, and it sounds like your new relationship has true potential. I don't know if I'd call impulsiveness and restlessness 'orange flags' - part of the challenge of being with a woman is harnessing that uncontrolled creative energy. Have you read the book "The Way of the Superior Man", by David Deida? It's not for most people on this forum but it might hold some value for you if you can get past the mysticism.

I agree with your reply to Principled Man.

AlwaysGrowing wrote:Glad you're still around. I agree with much of what you say about both parties growing up, but want to add my voice here in saying that this is certainly not representative of all the cases on this board. If you recall my story, I'm actually one of the few people that DID (falteringly) walk away at the first clear crossing of the boundary. It was this setting of boundaries that made her run - she even told me once that it scared her that there were really people like me.

Excellent point. In my case, learning to set and enforce boundaries resulted in my wife choosing to respect those boundaries rather than lose me. That is only one possible outcome, and may not even be a very likely one. There's a strong chance that if you set boundaries, she'll run like hell. Now you know that she's unable or unwilling to treat you with respect, and it leaves you free to pursue love with a more suitable partner.

One should help another carry their UNUSUAL loads, but not their EVERYDAY loads.

I agree. Caretaking is actually harmful to the person receiving the care as much as to the person giving it. It's like giving them a crutch - at first (unusual circumstances) they need it to get by, but if they don't stop using it then they'll never fully recover.

In the end, character, the result of a lifetime of choices of doing things right or doing things easy, is what impresses me. Even where there is no 'lifetime of', I highly respect the attempt to be that. Your original question was what the difference was, and that is my answer - the person and their character, vs. the package and how the world perceives them / will perceive me as a result of being with them.

Good answer. Not so much "what they are", but "what they've made of themselves." Although you could argue that what they make of themselves, the 'character' that you observe, is a direct result of what they are on a more fundamental level, their internal 'character', but now we're getting philosophical...

Hey, long time no see! These are excellent goals for personal growth, and it sounds like your new relationship has true potential. I don't know if I'd call impulsiveness and restlessness 'orange flags' - part of the challenge of being with a woman is harnessing that uncontrolled creative energy. Have you read the book "The Way of the Superior Man", by David Deida? It's not for most people on this forum but it might hold some value for you if you can get past the mysticism.

Hey TK - just ordered the book. Your reco was enough, but on the net the reviews looked good too.

Yup - took a break from the forum and concentrated on work for a while. Career back in full swing, so have lesser time for the forum

Yes, you are right. Maybe the "orange flags" are really not so, just me being careful because its the first relationship since the break I took after the HPD relationship. If there is one good change I see in myself, it is that, I am now more sure of my own needs and how to go about them. I guess the HPD relationship did afterall have a positive impact. I feel more open, less afraid of failing and more confident about life in general.

I have also realized that its not just boundary setting and enforcing in a relationship with a wild woman (HPD or not) that is needed, but the ability for a man to keep his life's goals ahead of the woman. A man who allows a wild woman to enmesh himself and loses sight of his life's goals ends up with boundaries being violated anyways. You can still remain a good man and yet not lose sight of your goals (the difference between a good guy and a nice guy probably).

A man with a higher purpose can easily "tame" a wild woman. She will follow him anyways.

TatteredKnight wrote:I've been finding myself less drawn to this forum, though, as my life's moved on. I really can't overemphasise how much my wife has improved since I started resolving my own issues, taking responsibility for myself and my relationship, and basically growing up and becoming 'the man' in my marriage. There are definitely cases of severely mentally ill women who rain chaos and destruction down upon hapless males - but if my experience (and others have had similar) is anything to go by, 90% of the symptoms of HPD are merely the natural result of a spoilt, uncontrolled child-woman in a relationship with an insecure, effeminized boy. Neither of them have quite finished growing up, and neither is yet equipped to handle adult life and relationships. Once the man deals with his issues, he will, just by being himself and being a mature, integrated male, lead the woman towards being a mature, healthy female.

Excellent point. Half-chuckled when I read it b/c it's true. Although I was pretty confident when I met my ex - there were some maturity issues I was trying to take care of (addiction to ciggarettes - combo of unhealthy perfectionism and the resulting self-loathing) I know that I was responsible for setting off her insecurities as well, not by the stands I made, but how I made them - when her behavior was cruel/disrespectful, I'd react by putting the relationship on the line or lecturing the crap out of her. This didn't foster security. You description of making your point, walking off for 15 minutes etc would be a much more mature way to handle the arguments we had. And b/c of that, I have felt guilty and responsible for my failure to be strong. She was attracted to my stability, but in the end, that was shot.

I respect you for being able to handle the relationship. What you said about 'leading' definitely hits me, b/c although I tried to lead, I also failed miserably at times. I must say though: it is hard to be strong when another person is testing and undermining you. I know this came from her own insecurity, but for me - it was too much. Are you happy now?

Rhodes - welcome to the forum.

Your posts on some of the other topics sound very much like mine. You seem to be posting what I used to post a few months ago. You might do well to check up some of the older posts in which TK and I have discussed this idea and a very well written guide by TK.

There are some important things to understand:

1. Don't beat yourself up for becoming more insecure than your normal self. Even the most secure man can sometimes go through bouts of confusion, when he did not expect to handle such a woman, which might seem like insecurity. In terms of the bigger picture, this relationship would have exposed to you your own vulnerability, you might have not experienced until then. It is a good learning that will help you later. The next time you encounter this situation, if you are strong enough and have learnt, you will probably feel amused

2. You seem to be doing the right thing - asking questions about yourself and your own insecurities. This is the best way to recover. Work on yourself.

3. From my own understanding - there is a difference between a woman who lies and a woman who appears inconsistent because she expresses feelings. There is a difference between a spontaneous woman and an impulsive one. The is also a difference between a woman who seems passionate on the outside to one who is passionate in a more intrinsic way. When you are a strong man, not cowed down by any crisis or weakness, you will be able to spot that difference. It will come to you because you will trust your instinct. When a man is constantly avoiding his own instinct and is not in one with it while making decisions, he needs to stand back and ask himself why he is doing that. Only when he is one with is own instinct, should he commit himself to such a woman. Otherwise he will chose the falsely passionate female over the truly spontaneous one.

The understanding and viewpoint from which you are posting is a good one. Keep on that path. Don't focus on her negativity. Instead keep focusing on enhancing your positive virtues.

The stability and the strength which she sought in you, is part of you. The downtimes of this relationship may have temporarily shaken you. But this failure can only help you become more aware and strengthen you. Who knows, maybe this relationship was the one that actually makes you more aware of you strengths, which would have otherwise lain undiscovered

newtohpd - thanks for your words: really encouraging to hear. What you said about instincts is dead on the more I think about it.

newtohpd wrote:I have also realized that its not just boundary setting and enforcing in a relationship with a wild woman (HPD or not) that is needed, but the ability for a man to keep his life's goals ahead of the woman. A man who allows a wild woman to enmesh himself and loses sight of his life's goals ends up with boundaries being violated anyways. You can still remain a good man and yet not lose sight of your goals (the difference between a good guy and a nice guy probably).

A man with a higher purpose can easily "tame" a wild woman. She will follow him anyways.

This is exactly right. Are you sure you haven't read Way of the Superior Man? There's a couple of chapters devoted to making this very point.

Rhodes wrote:I know that I was responsible for setting off her insecurities as well, not by the stands I made, but how I made them - when her behavior was cruel/disrespectful, I'd react by putting the relationship on the line or lecturing the crap out of her. This didn't foster security. You description of making your point, walking off for 15 minutes etc would be a much more mature way to handle the arguments we had. And b/c of that, I have felt guilty and responsible for my failure to be strong. She was attracted to my stability, but in the end, that was shot.

Yep, I used to do that too, about as successfully as you did. Don't feel guilty, though - that's your perfectionism again. Just accept it as a mistake that you've learned from. I sometimes find myself feeling angry or guilty about the way I've behaved in the past, and I have to remind myself this too.

I respect you for being able to handle the relationship. What you said about 'leading' definitely hits me, b/c although I tried to lead, I also failed miserably at times. I must say though: it is hard to be strong when another person is testing and undermining you. I know this came from her own insecurity, but for me - it was too much. Are you happy now?

I failed plenty of times too. Leadership is a learned skill just like anything else. When you start you'll be bad at it, and with practice you improve. I know how hard it can be to stay strong when you're going through hell and to top it all off, the person closest to you is trying to tear you down rather than support you, but it does get better. As you say, that testing behaviour comes from her insecurity. As you settle into the leadership role and she learns to trust you in that role, she starts to feel more secure, and it subsides.

For my part, yes, I'm now very happy with my relationship. Six months ago, when I'd just started figuring all this stuff out, my wife was pulling major shit-tests every day or two, and when I started passing them they got a lot worse before they got better. Now we can go a week or more between tests, and they usually take two minutes: "Honey can I do <something that crosses my boundaries>?" "No, you can't." "Oh OK then."

From the aforementioned book:

So she will test you. She might not be fully conscious of why she is doing it, but she will poke your weak spots, especially in moments of your superficial success, in order to feel your strength. If you collapse, you've flunked the test. You have let your woman deflate you. You have demonstrated your dependence on her for external validation. Even if you just made a million dollars, you are a weak man. Your woman cannot trust you fully.

If you remain full and strong, humorous and happy, your truth unperturbed by her testing, then you pass the test.

An excellent description of a shit-test, and of emotional dis-enmeshment, all in one.