super long...super convoluted...super confused...

Sorry if this turns out to be really long, but I really could use some help/advice from some people who’ve been there…
My friend "P" and I have known each other for 18 years. We started out dating, but he quickly came to the conclusion that we should just be friends. Over the initial years of our friendship we became quite close, discussing personal details of our love lives with each other, talking late into the night, supporting each other when the relationships with our respective BF/GF's went bad. I noticed even back then that he had a habit of chasing the girls, but not ever being satisfied when he "caught" the girl. He was always very dramatic with his feelings, insisting at age 24 that he was going to go bald before age 30 and then die alone. He also believed that relationships were much more serious or intimate than they really were. Very outgoing, charming and funny, he definitely craved being the center of attention. After a couple years of witnessing this, I thought why are we just friends? I'm still attracted to him, I was sure I could give him what those other girls couldn't, I know him better than anyone and we're already best friends....so I told him how I felt. I was shot down with the "I don't feel that way about you". Over the years I continued to harbor these feelings for him, watching him "torture" himself over these other girls, who "just couldn't see what a great guy he was". We would talk about it every once in a while, but it always ended with the "I don't feel that way about you".
After about 6 years of being best friends with P, I met a guy, "D", who "swept me off my feet" and I finally tucked those feelings for P away in a deep pocket somewhere in the recesses of my subconscious. Another year goes by and I've been completely absorbed by my prince charming D - he was a tad bit clingy and didn't like to do things with people he didn't know; gradually I lost touch with, or greatly reduced the amount of time I spent with friends and the amount of time I spent doing things that I wanted to do, and spent more and more time with D, doing the things that he liked to do. P and I still talked, but didn't spend nearly as much time with each other and seemed to be arguing quite a bit.
Then P decides to move cross country. About a week before he leaves he writes me a lengthy letter explaining that he is and has always been in love with me. He said he had never been “in love" before and it scared him to death. He had a history of treating women like crap and once he found himself falling for me he knew that he didn't want to hurt me so he resolved to just be my friend. He went on and on about how crazy he'd been about me since the first time he saw me, how I had been one of the main topics of discussion with his therapist over the past few years, and how it had driven him almost mad to be around me all this time, and just be my friend. And what did I do? I put the letter back in it's envelope and tucked it into a book where D wouldn't find it, and thought to myself, "well, he had his chance and now I'm with D. Too little too late." Even though I knew that I still loved P, I was also "in love" with D.
So P moves away. We correspond a bit but not much. A couple more years go by and I end up marrying D. P says he can't afford the trip to come to the wedding. A few more years pass and P moves back. We correspond irregularly by email and christmas card, but never see each other or talk.
A couple more years, D & I have 2 kids. D starts to be more reclusive, cutting off ties with friends because he doesn't trust anyone, thinks people have our house bugged and that they are out to get him. He loses his job, believes that it was a set up. He becomes very depressed, more and more dependent on me to do everything for him including find him a new job. He does finally start working, at a job making $20K less per year. He is increasingly paranoid, and then he gets angry, verbally and emotionally abusing me and the children, a bit of physical abuse, we fight all the time, we never have sex because he just wants me to pleasure him. We went to marriage counseling but it was not helping, he would just close up because he felt attacked. I asked him repeatedly to see a psychiatrist but he refused because of the expense. He twice threatened to “end” things, implying suicide.
Out of the blue, P emails me and asks me to have lunch. Lunch is great, seems like yesterday that I saw him. Of course I start feeling that old attraction immediately. But more than that, P tells me that he emailed me because he knew that there was something wrong, something seriously wrong in my life. He is a pretty spiritual person, and gets me praying and going to church, which I haven’t done regularly in years. We were talking every few days, emailing and text messaging constantly. P encourages me to go see the marriage counselor by myself because D doesn’t want to go anymore. I do, and tell her all of the things that have been going on with D. She recommends that I get his family involved to try to convince him to go to a psychiatrist, she also says he needs to be out of our house until he gets some treatment. His family and I did convince him to check into a facility, he was first diagnosed with bipolar with severe depression. A second opinion is pending, but the consensus is that he actually has BPD w/ narcissism. He stayed at his parent’s house for about 6 weeks after he got out of the facility and then came back home while he was still in outpatient treatment. He and I have both been seeing therapists individually and we see his therapist together as well. This has been going on for about 6 months.
In the meantime, P and I have started hanging out together once in a while, D gives his okay, because he knows P and trusts me. I tell P that I do still have feelings for him, but he says he let go of his feelings for me 10 years ago when he left town and I didn’t respond to his letter. We also reverted to our old habits of talking about our sex lives freely with each other and he entrusts me with many details of his sexual escapades over the last decade. I’m assuming this feeds his disorder and I didn’t mind flirting with him, since I hadn’t been getting diddly squat from my husband for years. One other oddity is that after I started talking to P, I found that I had quite the black hole in my memory from the time we were friends, especially the time period when I was first with D. I went looking for the journals that I used to write back then and discovered that somewhere along the way I shredded all of the journals that had a mention of P in them.
But now things have finally started to get somewhat better between D and me. I finally told him the truth about how I feel about P and he actually took it very well, but it really worries me that less than a week after I told him this he told me that he didn’t think we had much to work on in our marriage. I am still very hesitant to trust that the changes he has made are permanent. Right now he is taking his meds, but he says it is only because I want him to. He’s very good at putting up a façade when he wants everything to appear fine so I’m very concerned that once he feels I’m not going to leave him his bad behaviors will return. He also has a history of being non-compliant with medicines when he was treated for depression and anxiety in the past. I’m also having trouble being attracted to D just because of the hurt and loss of respect I’ve been dealing with.
P appears to be acting just like the old days, getting upset with me about something ridiculous, and then apologizing when he realizes that I’m not going to come crawling back begging for forgiveness. He also has anxiety attacks and calls or tm’s me at all hours, just to talk, so I can help him work through the anxiety.
Gosh, I wasn’t kidding when I said this would be long. Anyway, I’ll try to get to the point…I am torn between my newly re-established friendship with my old best friend and with my relationship with my husband who may or may not be willing or capable of change...maybe torn between is not really the right phrase, but I am just majorly confused! I think P has HPD and D has BPD, not that I can diagnose, but it seems very likely based on their behaviors. My therapist has been pushing me to remember the reasons I fell for D in the first place and/or if my heart is really with P. I am beginning to think that I love both of them, but they are both too dysfunctional and I should just leave D and stay away from P. But both of those are easier said than done. In case it wasn’t clear from all of this, I’m extremely co-dependent and feel the need to take care of both of them. If anyone has any thoughts for me on any of this I’d greatly appreciate it. Obviously I would like to stay with D if for no other reason than for the children, and remain friends with P, but I just don’t know how likely either of those is to come about. I can’t see myself ending up with P, because I think his disorder, if I’m right that is, is much more difficult to deal with. But is it possible? Are there psychological measures one can use to survive a relationship with a HPD? And what about the BPD? Can he change? I don’t know how much of the change he’s displaying is due to meds and how much is him just using self restraint to get me to stay. And is there anything I can do to help P? I don’t think I can confront him about this because he won’t believe there is anything wrong with him. I’ve also considered contacting his parents, but I’m not sure how they would feel about it either.
Anyway, thanks for reading my super long post. If anyone has any comments or ideas or just general thoughts I’d love to hear them.

Hi peach24,

I read your post, it is ok for long post. See, i think you should live forever with D. D is really good life partner for you. Reasons are there for this sayings: He tells everything when time comes and he is trying to be honest with you. And about P, he is looking more dramatic person. Really, how he made statements when he was leaving his place, he wrote a letter to you before this. He is not constant. D behaves because he is diagnosed. He really need someone with him. HE(D) tells truth. I don't think P can do this for you. HE needs someone to have fantasy, fun.

I got this thing about P when you said, P suggested you to see therapist/counselor. He should tell you consult counselor with your husband, so you both can know what is the real problem, and how it can be solved. P suggest you to do this alone. It would be better if you consult any counselor with together, don't you think? P tells things after time, i mean he becomes late. D tells you everything on right time. This is biggest difference between D and P.

Some points are very hard to explain for me here. My opinions goes to D: Love him, after all you have kids, think about their life and future. Just stay away from P. Things will become great sooner with D, he is just suffering from illness, he needs love to recover himself. Support him. He wants you really.

Now i am leaving choices to you. Good luck!

Here's my take: P hasn't changed in the 18 years you've known him. A relationship with him now won't be any different to your first one. He will suck you in, use you up, and spit you out wondering what the hell happened.

D needs some help, but he's getting it (even if reluctantly) and at least bipolar is very treatable with meds (unlike BPD, careful with these acronyms - BPD or borderline personality disorder responds better than HPD but not by much). If he's taking them, they could easily account for the majority of his change in behaviour. You can't help those who deny they even need help, and D is at least cooperating. Not to mention that you have kids with this guy.

I think you need to realise that it's not all about "realising why you want to be with D". It's about realising that you can only have one of them. Make your choice, and set firm boundaries with the other. I hate it when a woman who's in a supposedly committed relationship won't knock back another man who starts making moves on her, and when asked to choose between them says BOTH! And then, when that doesn't work out she'll plug for 'neither' before actually making a f**king decision. Yes, it's a hard decision, yes it's hard, but you have to make a decision, that's why it's called a 'hard decision'. Make one. Hint: Choose the one who's actually willing to be a better person for you.

Edit: Just to be clear, I hate it equally when a man's in a position like that and behaves the same way. I just used the female gender because my experience has mostly been with that variety.

TatteredKnight – thanks for the great feedback. I guess I didn’t express this quite right – D was originally diagnosed w/ Bipolar in January, but after a second opinion, which we’re still waiting for the “final” diagnosis as they are consulting with another doc and waiting for his records from the original doc, we believe he actually does have Borderline Personality Disorder w/ Narcissism. The meds have stabilized his moods, and the fact that he doesn’t have to wake up and go to a job where he thinks everyone is talking about him, has him behaving himself. That, and the fact that he’s scared that I’m going to leave him. But he is still exhibiting symptoms – paranoia, splitting, still drinking too much and overeating, narcissism, etc. Whenever I can explain a specific problem to him, he can fix it – e.g. he was using the silent treatment on our kids when they wouldn’t listen to him when he told them to do something; I told him that was childish so he stopped. But I feel like I’m just waiting for the other shoe to drop – if it truly is BPD then his behavior now is probably as good as it’s going to get. Then what happens when he can’t keep up the charade anymore, if it is a charade?
I completely get where you’re coming from with the “advances of another man” thing, but for my part it’s an in love feeling, a deep care and concern for P, physical attraction yes, but no inappropriate behavior. And for his part, he’s absolutely NOT putting the moves on me. The “flirting” I mentioned was completely innocent (and I know that sounds improbable considering your situation – I’ve read your posts on “Another 'Could my wife have HPD?'…”) but I’m talking about just being able to just sit and have lunch with a man where you can talk about your emotions and worries, talk about your kids and talk about your work, and just laugh at his jokes, and have him laugh at yours. He makes you feel interesting and smart and fun to be with, instead of making you feel like you can’t do anything right and that you’re stupid and boring, and you feel hated, by your own husband, instead of loved.
So the thing about just making a “f’ing decision”….I still say it’s not quite as simple as it sounds. It’s not really about choosing between the two of them – as much as I have always had the feeling that I “belong” with P, intellectually I know it would never work, I know his HPD-self way too well. The problem I have with letting go of him in general, whether it’s the love aspect or the friendship aspect, is two-fold, #1, I’ve always felt so badly for him – he’s absolutely miserable being alone (even though I’m pretty sure he always sabotages himself, he doesn’t know that) and he seems to “need” someone to be there for him. I’ve always been that person for any of my friends who were looking for someone to vent to, someone to commiserate with, a shoulder to cry on, whatever they needed….I’ve always been able to do that, except with P. I could give him all the advice and talk to him for hours on end, but I’ve never been able to help him with what he really needs/wants. And #2, More of my own guilt, I hate the way that things ended when he left town and I feel horrible over the fact that I basically dumped my best friend when D came along and then he confesses his love for me and I blow it off while he moves 1800 miles away for 6 years. How do you let go of guilt like that?
And as far as D goes, I believe I should stay with him. But I don’t know if I can. Here’s an example if you can suspend your disbelief for a moment – take your HPD wife, suppose she comes to you and says that there’s been a medical breakthrough and they’ve come up with a drug that will actually treat HPD and she’s been taking it for about 6 weeks now, even though she doesn’t really think she has a problem, but she wants you back so she’s going to take it for you. The only person she’s been able to think about is you and she wants you to give her another chance. Will you to take her back? You could even research the drug and see the clinical trials showing it to be effective. If you let her move back in, and she was really behaving, how long do you think it would take before you felt secure that the medication was working? How long before you would feel secure that she would continue taking it? You’ve talked about her here on this forum, you’ve talked about her to your friends. If things seemed to be going well with her after a few months could you get back to a place where you really respect her? Maybe you feel a little patronizing towards her, maybe it’s sarcasm, maybe contempt, I think it’s different for different people, but those feelings sneak up on us when we’ve been dealing with someone who is manipulative, controlling and/or emotionally abusive for a long time.
When I look at D, I have a very hard time seeing the man I married. For a few months after he came home I was completely annoyed and turned off by him because of the way I had been treated, and the way he had been treating our children. And his past helpless behavior, claiming he just couldn’t do anything, and my babying him (my own fault I know), has transformed him from a charming man who made me laugh, to a goofy and sometimes annoying guy, some might even say he’s my 3rd child. It’s been 5 months that he’s been home and I’m slowly starting to feel better about things. But I just don’t feel like I can let my guard down again – his behavior snuck up on me over years until WHAMO!! It hit me like a ton of bricks that he was totally out of control and hello I had to step up and do something about it.
And now he’s pushing me every few days to tell him that I will definitely be with him forever. That’s a hard one. How can I say that after 5 months of healing? Healing something that was an open wound that just kept getting bigger and bigger for years…he doesn’t seem to get that. I can say I WANT to be with him forever, but… (he hates the ‘but’) I can’t 100% fully commit to that right now because I still don’t trust that this thing is going to heal, and even when/if it does heal, I think there will be some scars that never go away.
Well, again, I’ve rambled on forever. If anyone manages to get through all of this, I applaud you and GREATLY appreciate your thoughts and comments.

Peach - sorry, as you can probably tell my own personal situation bled through quite a lot into my post there.

But I feel like I’m just waiting for the other shoe to drop – if it truly is BPD then his behavior now is probably as good as it’s going to get. Then what happens when he can’t keep up the charade anymore, if it is a charade?

Oh god, I know this feeling. We get a good day or two and I'll be on the edge of my seat thinking "what on earth could she come up with to break this?" The better it's been the worse she'll act out.

So the thing about just making a “f’ing decision”….I still say it’s not quite as simple as it sounds.

Yeah, I think my response to this bit was more about me (or specifically my wife) than about you. I'm sorry to hear your husband doesn't make you feel good, the way he should. As for P moving cross country, don't feel guilty. It takes more than a couple of days to plan a move like that, he confessed his feelings for you at a time when he was already planning to move long distance. Not your fault.

Here’s an example if you can suspend your disbelief for a moment – take your HPD wife, suppose she comes to you and says that there’s been a medical breakthrough and they’ve come up with a drug that will actually treat HPD and she’s been taking it for about 6 weeks now, even though she doesn’t really think she has a problem, but she wants you back so she’s going to take it for you. The only person she’s been able to think about is you and she wants you to give her another chance. Will you to take her back?

In a heartbeat! I still want to spend my life with her, and 90% of the time it's wonderful. It's just that the other 10% of the time, she treats me like absolute garbage and can't seem to understand why it upsets me. If she could say "I'm taking Magic Medication X and I understand now how much it hurt you the way I've acted, I want to make things right" I'd be over the moon. It would take a few months to be certain that things were good again, and I know that if it'd been 12 years I'd find it a lot harder. But overall, I'd be more than happy to drop the past if she could somehow make sure that the future would be good. As it is, she's been asking me to 'forget the past, let's focus on the present' once every week or two for the past three months. I started from a place where I trusted and respected her as an equal. Her damaged behaviour has slowly pushed me to where I am now, trying to make sense of a girl who is one moment the most caring loving person in existence and the next moment is (sometimes literally!) grinding me under her heel.

Edit: I don't have a clinical diagnosis yet. I think the hard thing is that she's trying to stop us ever getting in to therapy because she's afraid they'll diagnose her with something. Meanwhile I'm hanging in there in the hope that there's actually something fixable and I don't just have to resign myself to this being "her".

Edit 2: Actually, thinking about it, I wouldn't need 'a few months' to be sure she'd changed for the better. If we could go one solid week without major dramas or arguments happening, I'd know something drastic had changed.

Hi peach24,

My recommendation is to focus on one relationship, and that it should be your husband. See if you can make it work. If not, then you have to do whatever to look after yourself and equally importantly your kids. While you do that, the question with P is do you keep him as a friend. If the need you are meeting is to be a rescuer for him, there are plenty of healthy ways you can fill this need (working with the disabled etc.). While you work with your husband to repair things, I see having P anywhere in the picture as a threat to that.

peach24 wrote:then he confesses his love for me and I blow it off while he moves 1800 miles away for 6 years. How do you let go of guilt like that?

This is simply HPD behaviour I think. He wanted you to beg him not to go. Game playing - definitely nothing for you to feel guilty about.

Even if your husband is not successful in changing (though it sounds like he at least wants to), you seem to recognize that P never will. I hope you are not hanging on to P as a back-up plan, because from what you have said, I can't see that working out long term. P probably has many others in his fan club like you that he likes to keep handy when life turns ugly. (My guess is you hear mostly from him between rather than during his romantic escapades). If he is HPD he can not really love you or anyone else for that matter in the true sense of the word "love" . In my opinion if you choose him, for what that is worth (?) you are likely to become one of his hated ex's, and he will cry on someone else's shoulder while he says horrible things about you.

In your position, I would set boundaries with my spouse's behavior (i.e. when (if) it becomes unacceptable and time to leave), but also a timetable for making a decision on his recovery. If he's still holding up after a year or more then I would say stick with it as long as he is not hurting you or the kids. Otherwise I would say no P, no D, and go find someone with no PD.

Most of all, with the help of an individual counselor if you can, make YOUR OWN decision. I may well be guilty too of projecting my experiences of 16 years with an HPD, so take my comments accordingly. In fact I am still trying to confirm that my wife is in fact HPD (I'm pretty sure), and am early in my healing journey, so I may not be as enlightened yet as others here.

Good luck whatever path you may choose.