I have the solution to weeding out HPD's.

Forensic2 wrote:
I still think there is a way for people to protect themselves from getting involved with others who will damage them.

You've never had a relationship with a HPD, have you?

You read my answer to your question, but did you understand it? Here it is again: How? By carefully examining who I was and where I'd been, by learning what motivates me and my hopes for the future, and then presenting the ideal package to me. Do you know what that means? If you want it put differently, does every good, decent person you meet, have a dark secret waiting to be discovered?

Anyway, your point of view has intrigued me. Right now I'm going to work, but I'd really like to know how you - not me - would identify a HPD if you met one, having no knowledge of their disorder. And what's the criteria you have in mind? It'll be interesting for me to know what tactics or method you would employ to protect yourself.

Please know that I've no problem with someone having a different opinion than my own, but I do find it ridiculous when someone looks at the victims of HPD and then can say that they should have been able to protect themselves. It's an opinion based on nothing but ignorance. But then again, we're all guilty of that from time to time. And if Im being ignorant now - because you have indeed been in a relationship with a HPD - then please accept my apology, because your real-life experience will show that your opinion has some value.

Harry_S wrote:

Forensic2 wrote:
I still think there is a way for people to protect themselves from getting involved with others who will damage them.

"You've never had a relationship with a HPD, have you?"

You don't know that.

"You read my answer to your question, but did you understand it? "

Yes I did.

"But I do find it ridiculous when someone looks at the victims of HPD and then can say that they should have been able to protect themselves. It's an opinion based on nothing but ignorance. "

I never said this, in fact if you read my answers clearly you will see that I was very careful not to lay blame. You are overly sensitive to the idea that red flags are present in a relationship at the beginning and throughout. You don't have to know the diagnosis of Histrionic or anything else for that matter to pick up on behaviours, attitudes, and things that just don't feel right.

My opinion has a great deal of value considering I have clinical expertise.

"When I look back now, I'm sure the reason for me waiting was because somehow I already sensed that something wasn't right"

There you go you said it as much your self. You sensed something wasn't right.

There is a way to take time and engage in respectful communication on forum websites. It's all too easy to misread emotion in words that isn't there. You would do well you take your time to read a post, and clarify what a person means instead of just attacking them.

Forensic2 wrote:
"

I never said this, in fact if you read my answers clearly you will see that I was very careful not to lay blame. You are overly sensitive to the idea that red flags are present in a relationship at the beginning and throughout. You don't have to know the diagnosis of Histrionic or anything else for that matter to pick up on behaviours, attitudes, and things that just don't feel right.

You know nothing about HPD. You could read about it by going through months/years of posts, or you could read a more concise summary from what I've learned in my own experience. But you still wouldn't understand what it's like.

I still think there is a way for people to protect themselves from getting involved with others who will damage them.

You've not still not explained how you can know when someone is HPD.

My opinion has a great deal of value considering I have clinical expertise.

There is a way to take time and engage in respectful communication on forum websites. It's all too easy to misread emotion in words that isn't there. You would do well you take your time to read a post, and clarify what a person means instead of just attacking them.

Communication? Less of the ad hom attacks. Don't reflect your own inability to control yourself when you hear words you don't want to hear. You've been called on your ignorant statement and ignored what was written and asked. My replies are based on facts. Accept it, but do so without making it personal.

You attempt to qualify your statement by saying you have clinical experience. That does not give you insight into HPD.

Yes, I don't know if you have experience of a relationship with someone who is HPD. Your failure to confirm it suggests you don't, along with your lack of understanding. I answered your question, yet you fail to answer my own.

Here we have based on all evidence, another drive-by backstreet psychologist (clinical experience notwithstanding) reacting as they always do when confronted with their ignorance. But let's really examine what you're saying, okay? Let's see what quality you exhibit which would convince a clinic to employ you.

First of all, you should know that the vast majority of posters who adopt the same philosophy as yourself eventually reveal the real reason for their posting. And in this section of the forum, they're usually found to be HPD or a victim of HPD who's in denial and can't accept they've been abused. But let's say you're not one of those. In fact, lets go further than that.

Okay, we'll go further now. I'm prepared to debate this and point out how you're mistaken. If you can't deal with that, fine. But I'll stick to what I propose to do, without resorting to making it personal.

You sincerely and honestly believe that it's possible for people to protect themselves from the HPD. You've not stated that you've experience of a relationship with a HPD, but you still know it's possible for people to protect themselves.
Okay, let's say you're right.
What you've also done, is come into a forum where there are victims of abuse and told them "You should have done something to protect yourself. You're to blame, because you didn't do anything to protect yourself." Now, go into another forum and tell people they shouldn't have allowed themselves to be sexually abused. Or go and tell a woman that she shouldn't have allowed her stronger husband to beat her, or tell her that she shouldn't have allowed a trusted friend to pin her down and rape her. Look again at your own words "I still think there is a way for people to protect themselves from getting involved with others who will damage them. " How do you know? You've not explained. And even if you do explain, how do you know it's applicable to HPD?

Don't fall into the trap of trying to make a victim appear to be at blame for being abused. It happens time and time again, and there are enough victims, enough counsellors who post here who'll be quick to point out to you that it's wrong.

You see it time and time again; the well-meaning but grossly uninformed, spouting views on a subject they know nothing of. It's wonderful, kind and noble to help people - there should be more of it in life. But it's wrong to tell a victim "Well, I know you're the one who went through the abuse and I didn't, but I still know it's your own fault and that you allowed it to happen."
Can you imagine someone you've known for years - someone noted for maybe being especially kind, or particularly sympathetic, of having empathy for your circumstances, suddenly being revealed as a complete lunatic? In fact, look at those examples I've just given - it could be a close friend and confidante or a trusted work colleague that's being described there. It's not that the HPD shows symptoms of a disease - they show the attributes of everything you value in a good, decent human being.

So with that in mind, where are the warning signals or the red flags?

Your giving me all the evidence to show that you have a PD of your own

Forensic2 wrote:Your giving me all the evidence to show that you have a PD of your own

Clinical experience? Diagnosis via a forum? Nonsense - if it was possible then a fortune would be made from online counselling. But let's play along again - let's say you're right. We can deal with that - later. But it's another ad hom attack. Or maybe you're trolling. You're showing signs that you're out of your depth here. Stick to the point at hand. I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and continue the debate.

I answered your question. Are you ready to answer mine yet? If not, I won't allow you to blameshift or gaslight further.

I reread the post I made to you - there's no attack there. Perhaps that's something else you don't want to provide any illumination on? All I can see is that you've been told you're ignorant of the facts and that I'd welcome more information about your experience with HPD - because maybe I was wrong. In response, you've taken a 'hissy fit'. You can't handle being told you're wrong. No logic or reason to your answers.


But let's continue.

Nobody knows if you've experience with HPD.
Nobody knows how you can protect yourself from HPD.

Care to elaborate?

Your experience is just that yours and yours alone.

You make it sound like nobody on the planet can pick up on the undesirable and unlikeable qualities of someone with a personality disorder and avoid them or not get involved with them.

Some people can and you just have to live with that.

It is my opinion that all the clinical experience or expertise in the world does not account for as much knowledge than actually having experienced being in a relationship with someone who has an abusive personality disorder.

Red flags and warning signs only become so in hindsight and when all behaviours exhibited by the abuser are culminated over a period of time and taken in context together. It's only when all things 'add up', and the behaviour eventually is explained under the umbrella of a PD that the 'red flags' were there.

I am also a very strong advocate against victim blaming statements, such as "someone protecting themselves against getting involved. The truth is, if that were the case, you'd find abusers constantly living single lives, or having very short 'flings', but this is not the case. There are stories of abusers who leave a trail of hurt people behind them, especially if they're getting into their 50's and 60's. So are we to assume that person after person fails to protect themselves? What a dumb lot we all are? What really happens, especially in clinical analysis, is that the deception of an abuser at the beginning of relationships is under-estimated and under appreciated.

Like I said, unless you've personally experienced a relationship with an abusive PD'er you cannot totally appreciate and understand the level of lies, deceit, deception, cover-ups and the slow unveiling of the real person as the relationship gets more enmeshed.

There is only one stipulation where Forensics statement about protection can be viable, and that is in a situation where the behaviour of one partner is indisputably identified as abusive and the abused in the relationship can put up personal emotional barriers to minimise the impact, but even this is not as effective as we wish it would be.

Forensic2 wrote:Your experience is just that yours and yours alone.

You make it sound like nobody on the planet can pick up on the undesirable and unlikeable qualities of someone with a personality disorder and avoid them or not get involved with them.

Some people can you just have to live with that.

I never said it's impossible to pick up on someone who displays unhealthy traits. I said it's impossible to recognise HPD. The HPD doesn't appear to have a disorder. They appear to be a good, decent human being. It's as simple as that.

You've still not answered my question. And frankly, maybe you're not capable of doing it. It's fine though, because your type of response and behaviour has been seen here before. There will probably be another one along next week again - different username, same ignorance. And perhaps more sad, same reluctance to understand that there's something more than what they want (or need) to believe.

I really want you to try to understand. Why? - because I think it's important that victims aren't blamed for being abused. And if there's even the slightest chance you do have any involvement in healthcare, maybe you can gain something from learning - and then return with some insight.

Okay, I'd welcome the chance to discuss this further.
I'd like to know if you've had a relationship with a HPD.
I'd also really welcome the chance to understand how it's possible to protect oneself from the HPD - when the HPD can't be seen.

If you can't provide answers, then nobody knows what you're trying to say.

For what it's worth, here's another look at the HPD. Take it or leave it.

People are capable of making mistakes. And nobody is exempt from this - all different types from all walks of life are able to make the wrong judgement at the wrong time. Even if they've lived their whole life with an error free record, they're still liable to blot it by making a mistake. Some of the greatest cons in history have been committed against the greatest minds. Me? - I'm just an ordinary guy. I never knew what HPD was about. Even after my former partner was diagnosed I still found it difficult to accept, simply because I was ignorant of what it really meant. If you, me, or anyone else uninformed read every piece of literature available on the subject of HPD and then spent time observing one, it still wouldn't prepare us for the reality of having a relationship with them. Only when you do have the relationship and their disorder is revealed, then you learn. Reading the literature isn't enough on its own. Having the relationship isn't enough on its own. When you've experience of the two together, only then the pieces start falling into place. And that's when you do what you suggested - protect yourself. See? - that's how it works; when you really learn what the HPD is you can stop yourself from getting involved with them. And you do it by leaving.

If you're interested, stay around and ask questions. Don't be put off by anything. If you say something that's wrong, you'll be called on it. If you contribute some real insight, you'll see it's appreciated. And there will probably be a whole lot of stuff inbetween that. But at the very least you'll learn more. Still, you'll never learn enough to know what the HPD is unless you get involved with one - and I really don't recommend that.

shivers wrote:
There is only one stipulation where Forensics statement about protection can be viable, and that is in a situation where the behaviour of one partner is indisputably identified as abusive and the abused in the relationship can put up personal emotional barriers to minimise the impact, but even this is not as effective as we wish it would be.

Are you talking about when the PD has already been identified/diagnosed and the victim still stays with the abuser - albeit with some protection in place? If so, that's completely different than being able to recognise the HPD in the first place - and supports the point I'm trying to make.