Histrionic and exaggerating/embellishing?

xdude wrote:So for some [cluster Bs] at least, I think they are aware that others may betray (or abandon) them if they don't keep up their utility functions.... results in some avoiding becoming overly attached, that drives the fear of commitment <snip>... i.e. 'you are going to leave/betray me anyway, it hurts less if I make that happen on my own terms'.

Hi xDude,

Well you certainly did flip the script here. I haven't thought about it in this way before, however, a preemptive strike such as you describe sounds like something we have all considered (or maybe this is just my take). But what I think you're getting at, in general, is these common behaviors are simply amplified for the cluster B.

xdude wrote:Personally I find people with cluster B personalities including BPD, HPD, and NPD (sometimes AsPD), can be very intuitive. They can also be more in touch with human primal instincts than the norm. <snip>... if they don't maintain the facade of being an ideal. To some degree this can also be projection as well.

Right. What I find interesting about this is the 'idea' that the cluster B assimilates what is being projected on to them, and feel obligated to fulfill that projection - whatever that is - regardless of whether or not the cluster B originated the idealized persona in the relationship, or not.

I have no doubt the cluster B use their heightened, or maybe altered, sense of people/social awareness to craft their persona. This again seems true for all of us - but if I get what your gist here - you suggest an increased (or exclusive) reliance on outside forces to craft that persona - including sometimes on the fly (chameleon like). I have certainly seen that in action - and with stunning affects, I will add.

OpsDude wrote:...in general, is these common behaviors are simply amplified for the cluster B.

Exactly how I see it. I think people with cluster B personalities are understandable. They think and feel as others do, just to extremes. Others often cannot relate to the extremes, but also highly socialized people can live in denial about their own nature, a disconnect from their primal instincts and darker side.

OpsDude wrote:Right. What I find interesting about this is the 'idea' that the cluster B assimilates what is being projected on to them, and feel obligated to fulfill that projection - whatever that is - regardless of whether or not the cluster B originated the idealized persona in the relationship, or not.

I have no doubt the cluster B use their heightened, or maybe altered, sense of people/social awareness to craft their persona. This again seems true for all of us - but if I get what your gist here - you suggest an increased (or exclusive) reliance on outside forces to craft that persona - including sometimes on the fly (chameleon like). I have certainly seen that in action - and with stunning affects, I will add.

Again, yes, I think so, and yes, it's true for most of us to some degree.

It's the what's behind that, that is not relatable for most people. To throw another thought into the pot -

One theory is that many people with cluster B personalities suffer from core damage to their implicit self-esteem. This theory doesn't cover grandiose (aka 'simple) narcissism, or psychopathy, but for the other types including BPD, HPD, compensatory NPD, and maybe some with AsPD, they spend much of their lives reacting to "I don't feel good about myself".

I don't often link articles, but this article makes the most important key points -

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Implicit_self-esteem


"Implicit self-esteem refers to a person's disposition to evaluate themselves in a spontaneous, automatic, or unconscious manner. It contrasts with explicit self-esteem, which entails more conscious and reflective self-evaluation. Both explicit and implicit self-esteem are constituents of self-esteem."

"Because by definition implicit self-esteem may not be accessible to conscious introspection, measures of implicit do not rely on direct self-reports, but rather infer the valence of associations with the self through other means. "

There are other points made in that article that are also of interest to me, but what's important is that for those who are struggling with extreme implicit self-esteem damage, it's understandable that they may try to bandage that over via explicit self-esteem boosts. The later comes from the outside, from others approving, being attentive, and so for example:

For NPD types, they may seek proof of social value in various ways, such as through accomplishments (real or hoped for).

For HPD types, it appears that their sense of social value is boosted by being seen as sexually desirable, and through other's attentiveness. I am simplifying of course.

Of course everyone struggles with some implicit self-esteem issues, but it's about matter of degree. What can be difficult for the average person to understand is that they are also mostly unaware of their own sense of implicit self-esteem. They are unaware that their sense of "I generally feel okay about me, that I am going to make it, that I can work things out, that I have value, etc.", that often their unconscious foundation is there in the background, that their foundational sense of self exists through no effort as adults, and that the foundational sense of self is separable from their explicit self-esteem.

For cluster B types, their unconscious foundation often isn't a pleasant place to dwell on or fall back on. It's understandable then that many people with cluster B disorders avoid self-introspection (there is only pain there), and focus on what is outside of them, seeking explicit self-esteem boosts. It often doesn't work, or provide relief for long, but it's still understandable if we get over the idea that people with cluster B personalities can just flip a switch and fix their implicit self-esteem damage. There is no 'just getting over it' for them. Self-esteem boosts from 'outside' is all they know.

I do think it's possible to heal implicit self-esteem damage to some degree (probably not completely, it still means a life-long re-learn), but only with a lot of chosen work, and probably it's going to mean needing professional help. Others around them (family, lovers, friends) may mean well, but are just to close to the problem, emotionally involved, and not in the position to help in the way a neutral, objective professional can.

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Very short version - exaggerated/embellished speech is a means to an end. It allows the person with HPD to avoid their real (and painful) feelings, plus it does often work to draw attention and therefore a short-term explicit self-esteem boost.

xdude wrote: There is no 'just getting over it' for them. Self-esteem boosts from 'outside' is all they know.

Hi xDude,

Thanks for the article - it does explain the idea well. Maybe switching gears a bit, more about the receiving end of all this -

It's a fascinating list of conditions (cluster B) and a tragic list for those suffering from its effects. It's difficult, if not impossible for an uninitiated person to wrap their head around the magnitude of such a problem, especially when they are living/working in it. It all sounds simple enough, but the subtle ramifications of these conditions can lead to devastating physical and psychic outcomes for those involved. (Of which, spreading STDs is just the beginning.)

xdude wrote: Others around them (family, lovers, friends) may mean well, but are just to close to the problem, emotionally involved, and not in the position to help in the way a neutral, objective professional can.

Exactly. Yet getting to the point where family can agree that there is something seriously in need of attention, something of very real impact to the individual and to those around them, is difficult.

(Of course no one's crazy when you're living in the institution.)

It took me a lifetime of self-reflection, and a therapist to redefine passed events, in order for me to 'see' the disorder at work. And I imagine you experienced this as well, the moment that happened, I could feel the psychic house of cards falling down inside me. Only then could I side-step the problem, explain it clearly, and deal with it effectively. In my opinion, the potential ramifications of these types of conditions don't get the level of social attention they deserve. I also have a teenage son, so it's about breaking the cycle and managing the fallout.

In short, while symptoms such as embellishing can be understood and managed, understanding and managing the bigger picture requires - the average man anyway - one to almost stumble into a cul-de-sac of knowledge.

OpsDude wrote:It's difficult, if not impossible for an uninitiated person to wrap their head around the magnitude of such a problem, especially when they are living/working in it. It all sounds simple enough, but the subtle ramifications of these conditions can lead to devastating physical and psychic outcomes for those involved.

Absolutely true.

We do have the Significant Others, Family and Friends forum here, so feel free to start a thread there to discuss further, but...

Yea, there is a reason there are thousands of youtube videos on getting over a relationship with someone with a cluster b disorder, as well as many books and articles. Because those involved sometimes really do end up devastated. Months, even years of depression later, still struggle to heal. For the children of someone with a disorder, it can be a lifelong struggle to recover.

OpsDude wrote:It took me a lifetime of self-reflection, and a therapist to redefine passed events, in order for me to 'see' the disorder at work. And I imagine you experienced this as well...
In short, while symptoms such as embellishing can be understood and managed, understanding and managing the bigger picture requires - the average man anyway - one to almost stumble into a cul-de-sac of knowledge.

I can only write from the male experience, but see that many women have struggled with healing after a relationship with someone with say NPD, or AsPD.

For us guys, especially when it comes to those romantic relationships with females, most of us are taught to be very protective of women (might also be due in part to our biology), and we are taught to see women in certain ways. Exaggerated/embellished speech/expression is a good example. We are taught to take those expressions seriously, to be supportive, that a strong expression is an indication of emotions strongly felt. So yes, the average man is just going to go with what he knows and has learned his whole life. To question beyond that is initially unthinkable.

During the devaluation phase, it's also initially unthinkable for us to even ponder, this is being done intentionally. We just don't conceive of women being capable of being intentionally cruel. Add in that our sense of self is being challenged, and what is a man/boy suppose to do if challenged? Fight, defend, don't cry, be strong, remain supportive, prove we have self-esteem, etc.

I could go on, but yes, I do know where you are coming from, and having your whole view of self and women turned upside down is devastating. Also no shame in needing some professional help to heal (still doing so myself).

Understanding the disorder definitely does help, and may be helpful in avoiding repeating the same choices in the future, but it turns out the real challenge (as you have written about), is turning our focus from the disordered partner to ourselves. It's a painful journey for sure.

Hi xDude,

Thanks. I'll have a look at "Significant Others, Family and Friends". You shed light on a few areas I hadn't thought about - and I'm sure there is much more.

Hey OpsDude,

I am looking forward to you posting in the Significant Others, Family and Friends forum, if that is something that benefits you too. You have written some deep and well explained insights in this thread, and I think you'd have much to offer others in that sub-forum as well.

I used to do that quite a bit when I was younger, and slowly stopped once I became more conscious of it. Can't speak for anyone else, but there was no conscious intent behind me doing that, it was just what it was.