HPD - Cluster B PD - Psychopathy

after reading a lot about psychopathy (hare, cleckley) i´m getting more confused over the relationship between cluster b disorders, especially hpd, and the concept of psychopathy.

so i would like to post a couple of questions:

1. thinking carefully of my ex-hpd she certainly has many psychopathic traits as indicated in the literature and a couple of hpd-traits listed in the dsm (behaviour based) can be also found in hare´s pcl-r (character based). is it correct to say hpd-people are at least partial psychopaths?

2. many (if not almost all) hpd-behaviours discussed here in the forum could also be found in the description of a psychopath, maybe except the antisocial/criminal behaviour, but isn´t lying, cheating, manipulation antisocial behaviour?

3. i´m familiar with the following concept from the dual diagnosis page:
"If the aggressive, impulsive, and exploitative behavior become dominant in men with HPD, differentiation from the antisocial personality disorder can become problematic. There are questions raised in the literature as to whether or not HPD is a female variant of APD in men. However, as currently described in the DSM-IV™, the two are differentiated by the need to please and inclination to seek reassurance found in men or women with HPD and the more calculating and indifferent determination to exploit others found in APD. Also, a diagnosis of HPD does not require adolescent correlates of antisocial behavior as does the diagnosis of APD."

in short, "the more calculating and indifferent determination to exploit others" together with antisocial behaviour discriminates hpd from aspd and not every aspd is a true psychopath. but aren´t in this context hpds and aspds at least partial psychopaths?

4. are all personality disordered people, especially cluster-b-disorders, with psychopathic traits as indicated in hare´s pcl-r partial psychopaths and is there a sort of continuum from bpd to hpd to npd to aspd to true psychopathy?

5. i read in a book (forgot title) that true psychopaths have the personality structure of a malignant narcissist, so does that mean full blown psychopathy is that kind of npd and therefore part of the cluster-b-disorders?

thank you in advance for your answers and comments!

Here are some of the differences.

1. Psychopaths do not have any emotional investment in other people.

2. They act out in overtly antisocial ways usually for a long duration and it is not precipatated by seperation stress or abandonment.

3. There is minimal anxiety or depression.

4. Guilt for their actions is practically nonexistent.

5. Even when adequately confronted with their self destructive behavior they will not integrate it and get depressed and anxious.

6. Therapy does not work for them.

7. The parents of psychopaths are often found to be psychopathic themselves..

ewriter wrote:after reading a lot about psychopathy (hare, cleckley) i´m getting more confused over the relationship between cluster b disorders, especially hpd, and the concept of psychopathy.

so i would like to post a couple of questions:

1. thinking carefully of my ex-hpd she certainly has many psychopathic traits as indicated in the literature and a couple of hpd-traits listed in the dsm (behaviour based) can be also found in hare´s pcl-r (character based). is it correct to say hpd-people are at least partial psychopaths?

2. many (if not almost all) hpd-behaviours discussed here in the forum could also be found in the description of a psychopath, maybe except the antisocial/criminal behaviour, but isn´t lying, cheating, manipulation antisocial behaviour?

3. i´m familiar with the following concept from the dual diagnosis page:
"If the aggressive, impulsive, and exploitative behavior become dominant in men with HPD, differentiation from the antisocial personality disorder can become problematic. There are questions raised in the literature as to whether or not HPD is a female variant of APD in men. However, as currently described in the DSM-IV™, the two are differentiated by the need to please and inclination to seek reassurance found in men or women with HPD and the more calculating and indifferent determination to exploit others found in APD. Also, a diagnosis of HPD does not require adolescent correlates of antisocial behavior as does the diagnosis of APD."

in short, "the more calculating and indifferent determination to exploit others" together with antisocial behaviour discriminates hpd from aspd and not every aspd is a true psychopath. but aren´t in this context hpds and aspds at least partial psychopaths?

4. are all personality disordered people, especially cluster-b-disorders, with psychopathic traits as indicated in hare´s pcl-r partial psychopaths and is there a sort of continuum from bpd to hpd to npd to aspd to true psychopathy?

5. i read in a book (forgot title) that true psychopaths have the personality structure of a malignant narcissist, so does that mean full blown psychopathy is that kind of npd and therefore part of the cluster-b-disorders?

thank you in advance for your answers and comments!

I am a malignant narcissist (tried and true) and I can assure you, I am not a psychopath. Sociopathic yes. but not a psychopath.

Stupid book.

Daniel

Jay wrote:Here are some of the differences.

1. Psychopaths do not have any emotional investment in other people.

2. They act out in overtly antisocial ways usually for a long duration and it is not precipatated by seperation stress or abandonment.

3. There is minimal anxiety or depression.

4. Guilt for their actions is practically nonexistent.

5. Even when adequately confronted with their self destructive behavior they will not integrate it and get depressed and anxious.

6. Therapy does not work for them.

7. The parents of psychopaths are often found to be psychopathic themselves..

Good input.

Been drinking so my apologys if this dosent make sense.

(hare, cleckley).....pcl-r

The PCL-R is meant to diagnose individual's in forensic setting's. IE: If your not on trial or in prison your not meant to be diagnosed with this criteria.

Though in 1980 Psychopathic was put forth to be it's own distinct personality disorder the behavior much like antisocial behavior can be vauge so the idea was tossed and psychopathic was made a branch of ASPD. A moment of unempathectic rage could be considered psychopathic behavior. People often mix-up behavior with personality. Some thing's can be alot alike like NPD and ASPD or BPD and HPD for example. But to not have us thrown into the same pot as Vaknin and his follower's we must establish that asmuch as some behaviors and trait's can be alike there are even greater distinctions between them. When people try and blur those line's of distinction by suggesting they are one in the same it only spread's confusion and misinformation.

partial psychopaths?

I'm not sure if one can be a partial psychopath. I'm not even sold on an individual having two full on PD's. I'd believe one would be more dominant and the other just a combination of behavior's. Like the idea of a malignant narcissist. A narcissist (dominant) and a psychopath (behaviors) otherwise i'd think the two would conflict and contridict each other. The behavior would accompany the dominant personality rather then have it's own set of need's. So i'd think it would be a accompanied behavior to HPD. Which anyone could have. But psychopathic bahvior and crime are one and the same.

Not every aspd is a true psychopath

Infact most are not. I think the numbers are something like 99%-1% ratio.

ewriter wrote:2. many (if not almost all) hpd-behaviours discussed here in the forum could also be found in the description of a psychopath, maybe except the antisocial/criminal behaviour, but isn´t lying, cheating, manipulation antisocial behaviour?

3. i´m familiar with the following concept from the dual diagnosis page:
"If the aggressive, impulsive, and exploitative behavior become dominant in men with HPD, differentiation from the antisocial personality disorder can become problematic. There are questions raised in the literature as to whether or not HPD is a female variant of APD in men. However, as currently described in the DSM-IV™, the two are differentiated by the need to please and inclination to seek reassurance found in men or women with HPD and the more calculating and indifferent determination to exploit others found in APD. Also, a diagnosis of HPD does not require adolescent correlates of antisocial behavior as does the diagnosis of APD."

2) no those are morally wrong behaviors.

3) the concept of seeking reassurance is misleading. when I finally learned what it is that is described as that it dawned on me how misleading that statement is. when we seek reassurance we aren't really seeking reassurance at all about what we are asking about but more or less that you still love us. it is also an impulsive seeking of reassurance that we don't recognize that we do. the reassurance thing is also more of a ... way for us to pick a very subtle fight with you for you not loving us. but it usually comes out so subtle that is misinterpreted instead of us picking a fight but as us seeking reassurance.