HPD: Guilt

Afternoon,

My question for diagnosed individuals with HPD is around guilt. I've read many articles, forum posts, etc. about some that have 0 understanding of guilt is, others who feel it and disregard it (or compartmentalize it), and others who can feel it and/or turn it off at their leisure.

Which are you? And why do you think you that is?

I'm unsure of what guilt is, because it doesn't weigh on my decision-making skills even when I think it should.

Appreciate your time and thoughts.

PS. If the question is generic, feel free to provide an example.

I'll have a go at answering this one Moogles.

I'm a dx HPD male with some NPD traits.

I experience very little guilt but do experience shame for short periods sometimes. A lot of people think that guilt and shame are the same thing but they are different.

I suppose the difference between me and a NON is that I have to think about consequences of actions at all times. It's more of a conscious thing rather than being controlled by emotion. I've got a good job and life so that's really important.

I suppose the lack of guilt shows up in relationships as it does with HPD females, we're different sides of the same coin after all. I've had lots of relationships with women and often with more than one at a time and have no feeling of guilt at all. I see other men being manipulated emotionally by women but that type of manipulation has little affect on me.

For any NONs reading this please be aware that Moogles question is directed at members diagnosed with HPD.

Sous

For whatever it's worth I'm guessing that like so much else, you are going to find that people vary in degrees. It might be true that people with HPD generally are less influenced by feelings of guilt than the average population, but still vary individually.

Also, just a personal thought...

I tend to view emotions as having two aspects. There is the aspect of how the individual is affected, but we are social creatures. To me our emotions exist (personally I think evolved, but not everyone agrees with that), because of the other aspect... how our emotions affect others.

Sometimes though the word 'guilt' and 'remorse' can be interchanged, and it can be blurry what separates one from the other.

In particular I think the emotion 'guilt' or perhaps more correct, 'remorse', expresses to others that we understand their point of view when they feel they've been wronged in some way, and that because we feel a painful emotion, and because pain is something most of us want to avoid, it conveys that we are less likely to repeat a wrong.

Likewise if we don't feel painful emotions when we wrong someone else, what's the motivation to not repeat? It does seem though that part of this disorder is about avoiding painful emotions, but in terms of long term stable relationships, I personally think some painful emotions have a place in what binds us together as people (at least long term relationships; short term, different matter).

xdude wrote:For whatever it's worth I'm guessing that like so much else, you are going to find that people vary in degrees. It might be true that people with HPD generally are less influenced by feelings of guilt than the average population, but still vary individually.

.

I think it may be the opposite.

First one must take into consideration subtypes. I guess those histrionics who are more of the appeasing type are very guilt prone.

Second, if one have unstable self esteem, one will try to block feeling of guilty as this would be much more painful for them.

I guess this is where histrionic lack of guilty comes from. An histrionic with time will become a master at shifting responsability towards others, but that is because that at core they are very sensitive.

Ps. I still think of my mon on this spectrum, more of the appeasing type.

I really appreciate a very balanced attitude on this subject.....right? This article said it all for me [it reads]: Many people today view guilt feelings as undesirable. They feel the way German philosopher Friedrich Nietzsche did, who said: “Guilt is the most terrible sickness that has ever raged in man.”

But some researchers are now coming to a different conclusion. “Guilt is an essential part of being a feeling, responsible person,” says Susan Forward, Ph.D., an internationally recognized therapist and author. “It’s a tool of the conscience.” So, then, are all feelings of guilt bad? Are there any circumstances where guilt feelings might be helpful?

A feeling of guilt is triggered when we realize that we have hurt someone we care about or when we otherwise fall short of the standards we feel we should live by. As one reference work puts it, guilt relates to “a sense of indebtedness because of a person’s culpability for a failure, offense, crime, or sin.

Unfortunately, we may feel guilty without really being guilty. For example, if a person is a perfectionist and tends to set unreasonable standards for himself, each disappointment may trigger a feeling of undeserved guilt [right?] Or we might allow legitimate remorse over a mistake or wrong to intensify into feelings of shame and end up punishing ourselves unnecessarily. What good, then, can feelings of guilt accomplish?

Feeling guilt can be good in at least three ways. First, it signals that we are aware of acceptable standards. It shows that we have a working conscience. In fact, a book published by the American Psychiatric Association treats the absence of guilt feelings as societally threatening behavior. Those with defiled or deadened consciences have trouble seeing the difference between right and wrong, and that can be dangerous.

Second, a guilty conscience can help us avoid undesirable actions. Just as physical pain alerts us to a potential health problem, the emotional pain associated with guilt alerts us to a moral or spiritual problem that needs our attention. Once we are aware of the weakness, we are more inclined to avoid hurting ourselves, our loved ones, or others again in the future.....[right?] The best results come....by setting the right example, commending others honestly, and expressing confidence in them even though at times reproof and counsel may be needed. [And] finally confessions of guilt can help both the guilty and the victim....Confessions can make even the victim feel better because an admission of guilt can assure the victim that the other person loves him or her enough to regret causing so much pain......[right?]

Feeling guilty, then, can be good, even necessary, when we have done something wrong. [and they say that]: "Fools make light of the guilt that needs atonement.” A guilty conscience can and should move us to confession and other positive action....

And, honestly, I put some individuals on a pedestal because they have turned things around...

Oh, oops, Sous [no diagnosis here]

creative_nothing wrote:

xdude wrote:For whatever it's worth I'm guessing that like so much else, you are going to find that people vary in degrees. It might be true that people with HPD generally are less influenced by feelings of guilt than the average population, but still vary individually.

.

I think it may be the opposite.

First one must take into consideration subtypes. I guess those histrionics who are more of the appeasing type are very guilt prone.

Second, if one have unstable self esteem, one will try to block feeling of guilty as this would be much more painful for them.

I guess this is where histrionic lack of guilty comes from. An histrionic with time will become a master at shifting responsability towards others, but that is because that at core they are very sensitive.

Ps. I still think of my mon on this spectrum, more of the appeasing type.

Actually a really good point and probably should have written that out too. It is indeed very possible that at least some people with HPD are inherently emotionally sensitive, or were raised in situations where guilt was used inappropriately (something angel touched on in her post above), and so compensate by finding ways to shut those feelings off. Unfortunately some parents do use guilt inappropriately with their children.

Hi angel,

I really liked that. I think I had written before about there was this show about a little girl who has a rare disorder in which she feels no physical pain. While that might sound like bliss, in fact her parents spend a vast majority of their time protecting her from hurting herself, and longer term... as she grows larger, stronger, there is the worry that she will hurt others without any sense of when, why, how.

Personally I definitely agree pain has it's place, both physical pain and emotional pain has a place too. As you posted, it's an indicator that something is wrong and needs our attention.

Thanks, xdude! I thought both ends of the spectrum needed to be addressed. ..

I agree with angelinbluejeans that guilt is important and useful. If my husband (who is a Non) didn't experience guilt, then I wouldn't trust him. It gives me confidence that he atones for things for my sake instead of for selfish reasons.

xdude wrote:I think I had written before about there was this show about a little girl who has a rare disorder in which she feels no physical pain. While that might sound like bliss, in fact her parents spend a vast majority of their time protecting her from hurting herself, and longer term... as she grows larger, stronger, there is the worry that she will hurt others without any sense of when, why, how. Personally I definitely agree pain has it's place, both physical pain and emotional pain has a place too. As you posted, it's an indicator that something is wrong and needs our attention.

On the radio show Invisibilia on NPR, there's an episode about fear, where they talk about a rare disorder in which people are born without fear. The lady who has it that they interviewed did things like cuss and threaten people who tried to steal her purse. It's worked well for her so far because that type of reaction terrifies aggressors, but she constantly has to assess situations from a logical perspective in order to ascertain whether or not she could be in danger. So emotional pain, physical pain, and instincts all function in a similar way.

creative_nothing wrote:Second, if one have unstable self esteem, one will try to block feeling of guilty as this would be much more painful for them... An histrionic with time will become a master at shifting responsibility towards others, but that is because that at core they are very sensitive.

It could maybe be an acquired skill, but I (and I'm sure many others) simply have never had much of a conscience. My parents never made me feel guilty about things for no reason; they spoil me rotten. So I didn't shut down my emotions as a kid.

I mostly just feel remorse when something backfires. I feel bad for myself, not for other people. I base my decisions on my emotions when something pertains to me. But when I give other people advice, I use cold, detached, mostly indifferent logic.

I blame people for things that are my fault because I don't feel like it's my fault. I take responsibility just because I have to (ex. in order to keep a friendship intact). But also because if I really care about the person I hurt, then I want to avoid hurting them in the future. In that instance, I might feel some kind of pity. The same way I might feel pity for a cute puppy that needs to be adopted. Those are two of the few scenarios where I feel any type of pity, sympathy, or empathy.

TR_Jessie wrote:...So emotional pain, physical pain, and instincts all function in a similar way...

I personally agree with this. I'd even go a step farther that say that all our emotions have a place, in context anyway.

I grew up in a household, and maybe a generational thing, where another common message was 'you should never be angry'. Later I realized that was a crock of you know what

Personally I think all of our human emotions have their place, but the key is in context. Being fearful, angry, guilty, jealous, sad, etc., all valid things to feel, in context. Out of context? well that's a different matter.

What is out of context? When the emotion is driven by something that's going on in our heads versus the reality of what's going on in the real world around us. Angel posted a good example above of guilt out of context, feeling guilty for failing to obtain 'perfection'. It's not possible to achieve perfection, it's a fantasy world to believe it is possible, so feeling guilty for what is impossible is out of context.

On the flip side of that, other people are real. They have real feelings. Having feelings of guilt or remorse for hurting them is in context. Likewise if we are living in our heads, disconnected from how they feel, and have no guilt/remorse for hurting others, the lack of guilt is out of context with the real world.