through the eyes of an hpd and those that admire them...

i found a chapter in christopher bollas's book 'hysteria' that, in my mind, describes with accuracy the initial experience and thereafter experienced by someone suffering from hpd and the admirers they capture with thier gaze, teasing and affection...

"the hpd invites the other's seduction, and certainly many a person tries every trick in the trade to lure him or her back to life. but as the hpd believes that human seduction is sad compensation for the failure of primary erotic love, he or she seduces the other's seduction into a type of gaze - 'now look into my mirror and see how i transform your efforts into wonderful elaboration' - which removes 'each' from the realm of real engagement on to a stage to perform a part each knows only too well. both are meant to be captured by the other's internal world. even though the hysteric acts out. often involving others in a kind of ongoing event, such enactments are always vested with auto-erotic (using body as a masturbatory object) libido - onanistic passions, daydreams operating under the cloak of apparent real relations."

"this is why the hpd can suddently leave off an intense involvment with people, a sequence of emotionally significant engagements with another person - leaving the other confused, as it had seemed so promising. to the hpd, these encounters were only ever daydreams practised in reality upon actual others, who were to be seduced into intersubjective repressions: the exchanged mental contents disappear into ether, the hpd surprise upon confrontation - 'ohhh?' - a petite mort of meaning. in this surprise is the new-found libido of repression, functioning to drive each participant (the hpd and thier admirer) into self musings, wandering about in seperate internal worlds and re-imagining what has just taken place in reality???"

at least, for me this explains almost everything. i had to read it 4-5 times to get it but, i believe, it speaks volumes...

LMFAO, everyone should know this paragraph is brilliant if you want to take the hour soulsearch and I did to read it over and over again until we finally wrenched out its meaning.

Makes me want to smack everyone anywhere who complained about Al Bernstein's Emotional Vampires book using simplistic language.

No one can really knock the guy for that.

In fact his book shows his brilliance for just that reason.

Cluster B's are very complex and Al breaks them down into something understandable for the reader.

Thats a feat that is nothing short of impressive or awe inspiring.

yes, i never looked at it that way. bernstein is brilliant in his simplicity. he has translated the intensely complex world of the hpd and explained it in graspable terms.

i too have to read the above paragraph, by bollas, over and over to sustain it's meaning. just when i get it, it then slips away into 'ether'... but, somehow it makes perfect sense

OK, well hrm. Summarized- smoke and mirrors? Mindfu_k?
I am puzzled by what this sentence means-

but as the hpd believes that human seduction is sad compensation for the failure of primary erotic love, he or she seduces the other's seduction into a type of gaze

what is this failure of erotic love he's referring to?
also-

the exchanged mental contents disappear into ether, the hpd surprise upon confrontation - 'ohhh?' - a petite mort of meaning. in this surprise is the new-found libido of repression, functioning to drive each participant (the hpd and thier admirer) into self musings

So I guess the HPD attains this ether disappearance via? dissociation ?The 'non-HPD' surely sees the light pretty quickly unless they're in denial- but ..it does puzzle me what the HPD does with the information from the 'game'. The statements and shared 'dreams' and 'hopes' ....is it packed in cold storage..never to be retrieved? I wonder if I pushed my ex to this point-where the data has been 'erased' since I was getting too close to the facts...I had to be 'eliminated'? Libido of repression..an interesting word pairing. hrmm.

LOL, I'll try to translate the hieroglyphics for everyone.

""the hpd invites the other's seduction, and certainly many a person tries every trick in the trade to lure him or her back to life."

This describes the really good part for most victims of a beginning HPD relationship. The belief that you've found your soulmate the love feels so strong. During this phase the HPD takes what he or she needs of you and then once they have enough ie vampired that love energy out of you they depart or severely withdraw from you without yet ending the relationship. You not knowing about HPD do not understand that you did nothing wrong to make this happen but you believe you must have and you try whatever you can think of to make things good again but it doesn't work.

It was fated to happen since you a non HPD returned love for love which is the natural way of things for the majority of the population. Its not really even love that drives an HPD away simply the sense that they have conquered you and you are theirs. Giving them any hint of this drives them away from you like a vampire runs from fire. You try having the conversations you had with your HPD the first time you met to try and recapture the magic of when you first were getting to know eachother, the time you thought you felt such a great once in a lifetime connection but to no avail.

The HPD knows they have conquered you and the HPD has lost interest. Some HPD's will outright leave you at this point and others will linger on seeing if they can draw anything else out of you. For those who learn of the HPD's game during this time and want to keep theirs which has remained they must become cold and indifferent to the HPD re-igniting his or her interest. His or her passion for the only thing that matters to the severe HPD. The never ending chase to get your heart that they themselves think they want but no its really the chase that drives them.

"but as the hpd believes that human seduction is sad compensation for the failure of primary erotic love, he or she seduces the other's seduction into a type of gaze -
now look into my mirror and see how i transform your efforts into wonderful elaboration' - which removes 'each' from the realm of real engagement on to a stage to perform a part each knows only too well."

I think this is saying that the HPD views the satisfaction of her game with others as being momentarily satisfying but ultimately pathetic and dissapointing as the good feeling she gets from this doesn't last. Its a sad payment ie compensation for all her troubles so she moves from that sexual seduction to praising the hell out of everything you do and say to her. She focuses on you so intensely that you look at her as a beacon of pure love and in turn you start to focus this intensely on her and as things progress you find yourself becoming attuned to what you believe she wants. In turn you slowly begin to feel its your turn to praise her for all she has been to you. She's so special to you because of how she made you feel with all of her false overinflated praise that you will do anything to keep her so again the HPD's own act with you becomes your act towards her and you're soon praising the hell out of her and sensing when she needs this just how she inherintely sensed what praise words would make you feel good and capture you for her into this praise game she gets energy and more satisfaction than simple seduction out of.

In short you both are not really connecting in a true relationship sense but rather on stage acting your assigned parts for eachother playing out a shallow drama without any real meaning not a real love story. Act 1 she praises you. Act 2 you praise her. Act 3 the finale can go any number of ways: 1. You learn about HPD or simply that something is seriously wrong with the way your relationship with this person has been going take the mindset its a lost cause and ultimately unhealthy for you to persue and move on (most easily done by a person who has known and loved themselves well throughout their life). 2. You learn about how to win an HPD before the curtain falls and use your newfound knowledge to keep him or her forever and ignore any of the really bad side effects like your HPD cheating to keep things running smoothly. 3. She simply gets bored of you during some point of Act 2 and moves on without your even having a chance to try and reverse what just happened.

"both are meant to be captured by the other's internal world. even though the hysteric acts out."

The HPD becomes you through mirroring and you become her in the beginning towards you by ultimately ending up praising her incessantly or praising her when you sense that this is what she is waiting for.

"often involving others in a kind of ongoing event, such enactments are always vested with auto-erotic (using body as a masturbatory object) libido - onanistic passions, daydreams operating under the cloak of apparent real relations."

I think this part speaks to the HPD's using her body as a means to draw out attention from you and the daydreams part speaks to the HPD dream of ideal love and she feels that with each new potential conquest but it never lasts because dreams themselves don't last.

"this is why the hpd can suddently leave off an intense involvment with people, a sequence of emotionally significant engagements with another person - leaving the other confused, as it had seemed so promising. to the hpd, these encounters were only ever daydreams practised in reality upon actual others, who were to be seduced into intersubjective repressions:"

I think this is saying we were simply momentarily reduced into the HPD's fantasy creation of ideal love and the HPD's repressed fantasies about what that love would be like. Since the entire relationship is a waking dream to the HPD its not hard for them to leave us and live out that dream with others. The individual doesn't matter only the dream and who best can keep the HPD from waking from that dream.

"the exchanged mental contents disappear into ether,"

Not surprising. A real connection never formed usually due to an extreme lack of empathy and other HPD functions.

"the hpd surprise upon confrontation - 'ohhh?' - a petite mort of meaning. in this surprise is the new-found libido of repression, functioning to drive each participant (the hpd and thier admirer) into self musings, wandering about in seperate internal worlds and re-imagining what has just taken place in reality???"

I think this is saying when the relationship is over the non HPD tries to reconcile the HPD's behaviour with the motivations of a normal woman since that is all we think the HPD is and not disordered. Trying to do this only adds to our confusion since an HPD's behaviour does not square with that of a normal woman's. How the relationship's end trying to be figured out by both the HPD and non is an imagination is because the HPD is seeing it through disordered eyes and the non is trying to put it altogether as a normal woman who has done this to him. Truly both are imagining why it has ended because neither understands the other's thought processes. Well at least until a little later in the non's case after some extensive reading and in the HPD's case a visit to the therapist for why none of his or her relationships last.

I think this part speaks to the HPD's using her body as a means to draw out attention from you and the daydreams part speaks to the HPD dream of ideal love and she feels that with each new potential conquest but it never lasts because dreams themselves don't last.

perfect analysis...from what i have been reading in bollas's book the 'ideal love' part is much more of an intregal part of the hpd than i had thought. ie: the saviour as some here had called him/her. in thier daydream the 'ideal' love is an unrequited love. the one person who will not indulge them in the physical. they look at abscence itself as an erotic fulfillment.

bollas believes that the hpd's life is really like a daydream an attempt to stay perpetually in a child like state on and into their fifties and sixties or as long as they can manage to pull this off. if they are, at least in thier minds, saving themselves for thier ideal they are not really partaking in sexuality.

they look at others accomplishments in part envy but also in part because they believe the 'successful' person (whatevever that may be) has sold out to the establishment.

the 'primary erotic love' is the physical touch bollas believes they did not receive from the mother when they were very young...under three. so the use of the gaze and body movement replaced touch and the entire body becomes a sexual organ. the ears, the eyes. voices and stares take the place of physical touch. life is theatre to the hpd. a never ending daydream searching for that perfect love that will transcend the physical aspects of sex into the spiritual.

it's hard to capitulate exactly what bollas is saying in one post. it is very complex and layered so i will try to post quotes directly from him as i come upon ones that i believe 'speak volumes' so to say.

the one thing i will say is this...psychologists involved in therapy with hpd's are aware of the power of the hpd's seduction. it is not just us the common everyday individual who is seduced into this game. they are told to be wary of the charm/seduction of the hpd and many do admittedly so (as stated in this book) fall for the hpd. the hpd has an uncanny ability (unlike any other disorder or normal person) to invade the pyche of their intended targets. that's why it can be so damaging to some people. especially those who idealize love and prefer mind sex over the physical.

some hpd's (later in life) replace the search for the 'ideal' onto their therapists and view him/her as their ideal because the attention is unrequited. meaning their 'love' or so the hpd sees it as, will remain unrequited. hpd's ideal love is an unrequited love, a daydream, a fantasy...so sought after but left unfulfilled.

also, for those who wonder about the hot and cold aspect of the hpd. do not take this personally. bollas has an entire chapter called hot and cold. this is an intrinsic part of their make up. here's a quote...with more to come...

"although the hpd does not intend his/her sexuality to be realized, his or her offer and then rejection may be mistaken as sincere, especially when it operates in the sexual field. the hpd has sex from a frame of mind subtly dissociated from the act, operated by the central ego that functions in a 'magically' manipulative way. that is, the central ego knows it can move from one extreme to the other and yet if these two poles cancel each other out, then a relatively sane self is left. (bollas believes that most hpd's do not want to be cured because this requires moving from childhood to responsible adulthood). when moving into the love space (bollas also believes any hpd claiming to be in love is not really in love but under the suggestion of another or currently caught up in their act of acting like they are in love) the hpd does so as a magic realist, the elements of excitement and rejection often juggled before the other. the manipulator self survives by cultivating it's magical power in order to diminish the work of the other sectors of the self."

here are some quotes and concepts on the 'ideal' so sought-after by the hpd. it makes me realize more and more how fantasy like their thinking is. they are caught up in an 'alice in wonderland' like world where their only solace for the future is the 'ideal'. it actually makes one feel better because their is little one can do to connect with someone who has no capability to truly connect except with the one 'imagined' ideal.

but, here-in lies another paradox. the ideal can fall from grace too. the minute the perception of the hpd changes in regards to the ideal he/she to will be discarded. bollas believes, as i stated earlier, that any hpd claiming to be in love is not really in love at at all. but, under thier own spell of the act of being in love or is being convinced by someone or pressured by someone to believing they are in love...

"one of the functions of hpd auto-eroticism is to save the self for the imagined arrival of the divine. through an act of dissocation the hpd is only on erotic loan to any other who passes by. hpd's uses an other who is always not-the-right-one, and is therefore expedable."

"when the hpd marries it is to a heavily idealised figure or to a perpetually disappointing figure, with the ideal object still carried in the mind in countless daydreams every day. the hpd's love is a deeply auto-erotic (masturabatory) preoccupation projected on to the other, and as soon as the other eventually differs from the internal one, there is bitter and confused disappointment. the hpd makes love in a detached way using the other as a fugure with whom to masturbate."

"the hpd uses foreplay as a series of touchings which are never meant to find release in genital fulfillment...rather in withdrawl and/or frustration. hpd bliss thrives on this sacrifice, as self and other - brought to the point of sexual engagement - withdraw from it in order to testify to a greater or higher love. wait...if you love me you will wait. in deferral is found true love."

"the auto-erotic denies the pleasure of the other. for freud, this is at the heart of the hpd's position."

on a side note: i think anna nicole smith's (a classic hpd) new man is a perfect example of what an hpd ideal is...

1) she and him had to remain in a professional type relationship for a long time. he was her lawyer, she acted seductive around him but he had to keep a stone face to keep up appearances of being a lawyer (even though he may have been intensely attracted to her on the inside). this probably drove her crazy. she reasoned this man is 'special' he is not falling for my seduction. meanwhile, he was just doing his job.
2) he is in a position of power (a lawyer). another characteristic of the ideal.
3) he is probably very educated on hpd and knew how to play her like a fiddle to his advantage to make her think he was an 'ideal' and make her 'think' that she is in love with him.

OK, well hrm. Summarized- smoke and mirrors? Mindfu_k?
I am puzzled by what this sentence means-

i love the way you expressed that. very funny. that is how i feel everytime i try to read this book. it is, for sure, like hieroglyphics...i'll absorb it for a few minutes and then the meaning will vanish but, somehow, i still am able to grasp at least a little of it, still.

in regards to the origins of hpd and the erotic primary object. most believe that hpd is caused by a number of factors...hereditary, upbringing, abuse? (possible), and some believe in bollas's theory of the primary erotic object...or it is believed to be a collaboration of all of these factors.

according to bollas's theory the primary erotic object is the mother (meaning the mother is the first person who is responsible for touching the infant). when the mother changes the child it is erotically charged (no, i don't mean in a perverted way...i mean in the normal way nature intended it to be) before the age of three. for example: the peo (primary erotic object) of the bpd is viewed by the child to be scary and unpredictable. example: from one minute to the next the child does not know how this peo is going to approach it...pick it up roughly, throw it down roughly or cuddle it. therefore, and on into life the bpd fuses the idea of erotic love with unpredictability and treats others as such.

the hpd peo is different though. the hpd's mother loves it's child and wants to touch it. example: breastfeed, change the baby, cuddle it. but, has an inherent fear and almost disgust? for the child's private parts. the mother is fearful of the erotic charge of breast feeding as well. therefore, this fear is transfered to the child via a psychic transferance. the child's entire body is then turned into an erotic object as the mother who avoids the child erotically will make a fuss of it in other ways...paying attention to the child's ears, feet, etc.

the infant is aching for the erotic touch of it's mother but never gets it. attention is found in other ways, the child moves more dramatically and gets a laugh from it's mother. the child learns that acting out gets attention. therefore, the hpd as an adult is still searching for the peo that it never recieved as an infant. the hpd wants to remain child-like forever. still searching for it's mother's touch.

therefore, everything becomes sexual, but, not sexual at all. the hpd gazes at others in an erotically charged way the same way they gazed at their mothers for physical touch. but, because they were never touched erotically/instinctually (at least not in a free flowing guilt free way) by their mothers they are not able to fuse love of body with real love. love becomes an unattainable desire. the ideal. the unrequited. just like it was with their mothers. once love is given freely and wholly they do not know how to handle it. this is bollas's theory of the primary erotic object...

"the 'normal' derives fantasy and play with the other. the hpd seeks others as masturbation material and applies this fantasy to to others. he/she shies away from sexaul encounters and uses repression, itself, as an erotic act. the 'normal' unconscioulsy appreciates the 'love other' leading to a deeper form of communication. a deep sexual hunger is aroused and comes out of this meeting with the other. whereas dissociation and repulsion are the prevailing constituents of the hpd mind. the mother of the hpd loves her child but is repelled by the infant's sexuality. the hpd's mother's abstentation from sexual celebrations of the child's self, paradoxically, invites the child's unconscious search for the mother's desire, which almost always seems tantalisingly close to a transforming realization. the hpd is an optimist., feeling that his/her sexual petrification is momentary, good news is on the horizon. the mother will come around at last."

All of this text appears to represent some form of... ambigous compression. The words in themselves only have meaning if you have the experience. The references are vague in the general sense, but specific if you have bits and peices of information about the HPD in its entirety. Wouldn't you agree?

All of this text appears to represent some form of... ambigous compression. The words in themselves only have meaning if you have the experience. The references are vague in the general sense, but specific if you have bits and peices of information about the HPD in its entirety. Wouldn't you agree?

yes, i agree 100%. if one is not interested in the subject or has not experienced it first hand it all sounds boring and convoluted. i, myself, have a difficult time reading it and comprehending what he is saying. but, hpd is such a rarely discussed topic and there are hardly any books written about the topic. borderline and narcissm are written about much more. so in that case the entire book is solely about hpd so i thought i'd like to read it and hear the perspective of a real clinical psychotherapist and his perspective over the years working with hpd patients.