through the eyes of an hpd and those that admire them...

Based on my experiences with my hpd, I completely agree with Bollas in regards to how hpd's idealize love. My hpd's obsession with ideal love was the primary reason why I believed that she might suffer from npd when I first researched pd's. None of the hpd related websites that I found ever talked about ideal love as being an hpd trait, yet in my opinion ideal love was an unmistakable part of my hpd. I might be more interested in reading Bollas's book if I thought that I could comprehend any of it

Instead, I'll let you summarize it and ask you some questions. What is the ideal partner for an hpd? Is it someone who does not reciprocate love, someone who is disinterested in sex, or is it someone who has the capability to give the hpd attention and admiration 24/7? Based on what you have stated, I'm thinking that it's the former, but based on my hpd's (and I'm sure of yours too) constant need for attention and admiraiton, I can't help but think it's the latter.

The Lone Ranger wrote:*snip*
Instead, I'll let you summarize it and ask you some questions. What is the ideal partner for an hpd? Is it someone who does not reciprocate love, someone who is disinterested in sex, or is it someone who has the capability to give the hpd attention and admiration 24/7? Based on what you have stated, I'm thinking that it's the former, but based on my hpd's (and I'm sure of yours too) constant need for attention and admiraiton, I can't help but think it's the latter.

Ideal in what sense? HPDs Idealise a partner that will love and adore them 110% 24/7. However, objectively speaking, their ideal partner is someone who treats them like crap and toys with them. All in all it depends who you ask, and objective onlooker, or an HPD.

It is actually a sublime form of masochism, if you ask me.

I read some books which extensively deal with hpd, although most of them are more comprehensive.
I liked the most Jeffrey Young's Cognitive Theraphy for Personality Disorders: A Schema-Focused Approach.
I believe his use of schemas are quite ingenuous, and -- although written as a handbook for therapists -- it's not full of jargon. It's actually pretty easy to read and understand. In the coming days I'll write some quotes from this book. (This book is also a rather short one. Some 80 pages.)
Another short and concise book is by David J. Robinson, which helped me a lot to understand pds. The book is called
The Personality Disorders It also seems to be a booklet for practioners, yet easy to understand.
Marshall L. Silverstein's Disorders of the Self is the most recently published one. Just came out of the press (Nov. 06)
It is more difficult to read (except for clinical case studies), but a major strong point of the book is its references to existing literature. Since it has just been published, it's the most up to date one regarding the current state of research on pds.
Last but not least James F. Masterson's books are useful.
The easiest one to read is The Real Self.
I'd also recommend his The Personality Disorders through the Lens of Attachment Theory.

Jeffrey E. Young suggests that most Early Maladaptive Scemas are unconditional beliefs and feelings about oneself in relation to the environment. Schemas are a priori truths that are implicit and taken for granted. Schemas are rigid. Early maladaptive schemas (EMS) are self-perpetuating, and therefore much more resistant to change. Because schemas are developed early in life, theyt often form the core of the individual's self-concept and conception of the environment. The schemas are comfortable and familiar, and when they are challenged, the individual will distort information to maintain the valiidty of these schemas.
EMS are usually activated by events in the environment relevant to the particular schema. For instance, when an adult with a Failure Schema is assigned a difficult task in which performance will be scrutinized, the schema erupts. Thoughts begin to arise such as "I can't handle this. I'll fail. I'll make a fool of myself."
Young also suggests that EMS are the result of the child's innate temparament, interacting with dysfunctional experiences with parents, siblings, and peers during the first few years of life. Rather than resulting from isolated traumatic events, most schemas are probably caused by ongoing patterns of everyday noxious experiences with familiy members and peers, which cumulatively strengthen the schema.
Young identifies 18 maladaptive schemas. He groups them under five groups, and suggests that most pds would have two or more of these schemas and each pd could have his/her own schema, contributing to the diversity of pds. Hence, each hpd is a bit different from the next. The same goes for other pds as well.
I'll just write these groups below.
A)Disconnection and Rejection
1-Abandonment/Instability
2-Mistrust/Abuse
3-Emotional Deprivation
4-Defectiveness/Shame
5-Social Isolation/Alienation
B)Impaired Autonomy and Performance
6-Dependence/Incompetence
7-vulnerability to Harm or Illness
8-Enmeshment/Undeveloped Self
9-Failure
C)Impaired Limits
10-Entitlement/Grandiosity
11-Insufficient Self-Control/Self-Discipline
D)Other-Directedness
12-Subjugation
13-Self-Sacrifice
14-Approval-Seeking/Recognition-Seeking
E)Overvigilance and Inhibition
15-Negativity/Pessimism
16-Emotional Inhibition
17-Unrelenting Standards/Hypercriticalness
18-Punitiveness

It is actually a sublime form of masochism, if you ask me.

i believe bollas mentions this word in his writings. i'll try and find the quote later...gotta run...

It is actually a sublime form of masochism, if you ask me.

again, i actually think, in short, in non-psychiatric terms that the above quote from digital is probably the best and easiest to understand description ever to understanding what it is an hpd is searching for when they dream of their ideal.

at freedictionary.com sublime is defined as...of high spiritual, moral, or intellectual worth, not to be excelled, supreme, inspiring awe, raised aloft, set high impressive, of lofty appearance or bearing, haughty...and of course, i am sure, everyone knows what masochism means. an hpd would probably never admit this is what their ideal is but it is. many hpd's will not meet their ideal. they will cheat for a life time, decompenstate in later years or marry a quiet, subdued man who worships her, obeys her and allows her to walk all over him...all the while she will dream of one day meeting her ideal. the one who will take her love to a higher level...like the one in a romance novel or a movie, or what have you. the guy that will put her in her place.

What is the ideal partner for an hpd? Is it someone who does not reciprocate love, someone who is disinterested in sex, or is it someone who has the capability to give the hpd attention and admiration 24/7?

from my experience watching the hpd i have known as a friend for over ten years now...we were/are platonic. no interest either way besides friends on either side and also from what i have read in this forum and what i have read in bollas's book and from the hpd woman i had feelings for i believe the ideal is a number of things:

1) he is someone highly sought after or at least she believes him to be highly sought after.
2) he is powerful - could be in his job, prestige, fame, etc.
3) he appears strong in his demeanour. not necessarily in his physical body...but in his mannerisms.
4) he is emotionally cold and detached (naturally) either because he had a bad childhood and is unable to express himself or because he is just naturally that way.
5) the hpd friend i have known for ten years explained it this way (she is someone who met her ideal)...'in the beginning he told me everything i wanted to hear. more than i've ever had from someone else. but, then he slowly took it all away and i just keep trying to get it back.' the ideal is a man who treats her the way a pimp would. a pimp gives a woman everything she ever wanted (compliments, praise) then pulls the rug out from under her and plays her and keeps playing her for the remainder of the relationship.
6) be aware...you can not let this game slip away. the minute you do, or shortly thereafter, you will be history (or you will not be her ideal and she will dump you, start treating you like sh*t or cheat on you in the search for her true ideal).
7) and of course, from what i have learned on this forum. an hpd's true love is a diagnosed aspd or npd. these people do not have to keep on top of the game. they are naturally pre-disposed to this behaviour. it is true an aspd or npd can make an hpd do anything at will. they will literally worship him like noinsight said as a 'God'. they would give themselves over (more than any other woman) to an aspd.

as for the sex part...sexual dysfunction and repression is a big part of hpd. bollas's entire book seems to focus on this idea. depending on circumstances an hpd can be frigid or promiscuous or swing back and forth between the two. as bollas says, hpd sex is like 'masturbation deux.' masturbating but using another's body to masturbate. the hot and cold, teasing and then with-holding, and switching back and forth between sexiness and saint-like-ness is a huge part of hpd. there is an entire chapter called hot and cold that explains this. so i don't know if the hpd likes sex all that much unless she is with her ideal. sex with non-ideals can perhaps start out passionately but fizzle just as quickly. but, from what i have seen with my hpd friend who met her npd ideal she was into crazy sex with him. but, just because he was her ideal. once he slipped up a bit...she didn't want to have sex with him again. so, you see even with their ideal their passion is flighty...

but, as bollas says it is all an illusion. an hpd in love...you will very, very, very rarely even hear an hpd say that but when they do say it they are only under the illusion of being in love. once the ideal slips up and becomes human he is de-throned and treated like a door mat. it's absurd really. we have to remember it is a disorder. when therapists are warned about not falling for an hpd you know their power to mirror and weave their way into one's psyche is great. i am afraid many fall for the disorder and not the person. just like the hpd falls for the ideal game and not the person.

according to bollas..."the most 'prominent' paradox of the hpd is the exchange of carnal sexuality for spiritual sexuality. the hpd's sexuality is not simply based on sacrifrice of the body, it can only be achieved if the body is eradicated from consideration. an hpd in love is under an auto-suggestive spell. they are not really in love. sacrificial pain is hpd bliss...it becomes the passion. out of unrequited love the self discovers the power of higher forms. unrequited love is the path chosen by the hpd who would argue with Wyatt that it is a hot and cold passion and that this kind of love constitutes a hatred of the body self, where in affliction one finds a bliss that seems to be the way one can touch another. the hpd's masochism is the transformation of body excitation to an erotic undoing to the waves of despair created by the self's abstention form sexual life with the other."

from what i have witnessed hpd's strongly associate pain with love. without pain they do not believe love is really love. in Wyatt's poem:

'description of the contarious passions in a lover' quoted in bollas's book it says...

'i love another, and thus i hate myself,
i feed me in sorrow, and laugh in all my pain,
likewise displeaseth me both death and life,
and my delight is causer of my strife...'

i believe this means...

in love she hates herself. her food is sorrow and pain is her laughter. everything secretly displeases her...death, life and everything in between and the causer of her strife (her ideal) is her only delight...

A god eh?. hmmm.

That was very informative.

A Couple questions.

Are HPD's Only female?.

Why would a BPD have the same effect as a sociopath?.

Are HPD's Only female?.

no, you already know that jamie. you're smart there are men that are hpd but it happens more often in females. then again those specializing in treating this pd often ask whether that is a sexist viewpoint. in bollas's book he gives a lot of examples from the mouths of his own hpd patients. quite a few men are quoted. the one that sticks out most in my mind is one paragraph quote from a gay male hustler who used to bring all sorts of men home and be almost in a sexual frenzy but then once he took his clothes off he would do this really strange transformation in front of his lovers of switching back and forth and back and forth between feeling sexual and then saintly. he was very aware of what he was doing and his lovers were weirded out by it. but, it is just part and parcel of the hot and cold, teasing and rejecting side of hpd. obviously not all will be this extreme but it will be present in the personality somewhere.

Why would a BPD have the same effect as a sociopath?.

as for a bpd having the same effect as a sociopath...ummm, did i say that? i know that bpd and sociopathy are two very different things. the only think i think that might make 'some' bpd's like sociopaths is the one's that try to break down their lovers and show little remorse when they can see very well they are making them go crazy. i knew a woman who was/is, for sure! bpd (not the one mentioned in the previous post) but another one and she was sociopathic in her destruction of men. she would literally kill their souls. i don't know if i am making sense and i don't know if bpd's and sociopath's are alike at all...maybe just in the lack of conscience part (at times).

an hpd's true love is a diagnosed aspd or npd. these people do not have to keep on top of the game. they are naturally pre-disposed to this behaviour. it is true an aspd or npd can make an hpd do anything at will.

That's what i was refuring to. Why would a NPD have the same effect to a HPD as a sociopath would.

I know about NPD as my mother is one (diagnosed) and i've read the books and seen it first hand. My father without a doubt would be a sociopath.

So i've seen and read about both which is why i'm curious as to why to a HPD a BPD aswell as a NPD could "make an HPD do anything at will".

Why would a NPD have the same effect to a HPD as a sociopath would.

i don't think npd's and aspd's would have the same effect on an hpd as they are two seperate pd's. but, perhaps if an an individual has crossover symptoms, say if he is half npd/aspd then that would not be purely one pd so therefore that would be a whole seperate type of pd. the reason i think that either a npd or an aspd could make an hpd fall in love with them and make her believe he was her 'soul-mate' is that he would be the one person who could beat her at her game, albiet in two seperate ways.

also, the guy i know who became my platonic hpd friend's 'ideal-saviour-soulmate' is (i'm not sure of his diagnosis but he is probably an npd with subtle shades of aspd) is the classic case of an hpd literally sacrificing herself to his whims. i think full-blown aspd's or npd's are the only ones who can meet an hpd head on with her manipulations and manipulate her right back but not let her out right know she is being manipulated until it is too late. that's when they become their true self. well, with the help of the hpd's literal bordering on obsessive-like-worship they can enact this even more. it is the npd's or aspd's ultimate fantasy come true.

but, it is also the hpd's dream come true. they are polar opposites of the same instinct. as bollas says in his book 'the hpd wants to eradicate the body itself' and through sacrifice (giving herself over completely to her ideal) she transcends the physical and attains a higher spiritual realm. i am not saying that hpd's are sociopaths. just so you know i read the whole book and no where does bollas even breathe that word but you have to wonder if the hpd is simply an evening out process for the aspd. they meet in the middle, cancel each other out and give eachother what nobody else can. everyone else in the world...the non hpd's and aspd's are just putty and toys and chess pieces to play with and throw away.

i would love to go into a diatrabe about what the couple mentioned previously engaged in, let's just say it is obscene, i am no prude but around them anyone would look like a prude...it is hard to put into words but the way she gave herself to him - it was on every level. the way she would look at him. uuugh! if you know how an hpd gazes with lust into your eyes...well, picture that times a million and done with masochistic subservience and hyper-feminity. she would stare at him like he was god himself and he would just sit there all droll and smug with no expression.

anyways, i am not an expert. i can say what i have read has helped me. but, now that i think about it actually seeing this hpd with her npd? or aspd? or npd/aspd? (whatever he is) i can say with all honesty that these type of men are the 'ideals' that bollas talks about in his book.