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is severe hpd a form of sociopathy/psychopathy?

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is severe hpd a form of sociopathy/psychopathy?

Postby soulsearch » Sun Oct 08, 2006 11:38 pm

not all hpd's are sociopath's but i tend to believe that the hpd's who wilfully manipulate and conquer innocent victim after innocent victim are displaying sociopathic tendencies. i found a study that explains the correlation. it's very complicated so i posted parts of it here. if you want to read the entire article click on the link: note: it was a study done on female offenders. i am not implying that all hpd's are offenders. the woman i know with hpd has never committed a criminal offence, that i know of.

http://ijo.sagepub.com/cgi/reprint/49/5/530.pdf#search=%22female%20psychopath%20hysterical%22

Although the knowledge base is growing considerably less is known about female psychopaths. Empirical findings with men have supported psychodynamics characterized by grandiosity and a detached (narcissistic) interpersonal style. Gacono and Meloy’s (1994) clinical and research work with female psychopaths, however, suggested that hysteria, rather than narcissism, was the corresponding characterological style.

Millon’s conceptualization of histrionic personality disorder (HPD; American Psychiatric Association, 1994) helps our understanding of the hysteric’s motivations. The reliance of a person with HPD on others lay in the active solicitation of the support of those around him or her to satisfy the pronounced need for affiliation and attention (active or dependent style. Studies of other patient groups help us understand the hysteric’s psychodynamics. Finding that inpatient women with HPD experienced less severe symptoms of depression than other patients, Lazare and Klerman (1968) hypothesized that their hysterical character protected or defended them against a more severe, consciously experienced depression and a negative self-concept.

Other investigators (Pfohl, 1991; Shapiro, 1965) have made similar observations. Unlike the effectiveness of the male psychopaths’ so called narcissism in warding off dysphoria, we expect hysterical psychodynamics to serve as an ineffective moderator for depression and dysphoria.

The male psychopaths’ successful narcissism emerges in Rorschach findings characterized by increased self focus, elevated reflections and personals, less interest in others and human interactions, low human movement, low human content, less attachment capacity and anxiety and sense of self-damage. It is suggested that a histrionic rather than narcissistic (males) personality style is characteristic of female psychopathy.

Therefore, the histrionic character structure in female psychopaths would dictate elevated egocentricity (not based on reflections) as a result of increased self-focus in the absence of grandiosity, superficial interest in others, a self-experience as “damaged” and severe problems grasping the motivations of others human experience variable.

Rather than remorse or guilt, the self-critical, unhappy, and dissatisfied presentation of the female psychopath may be viewed as an insidious negative self-image arising from long-standing frustration over unmet needs for attention and admiration. Rather, the female psychopath struggles with a hysterical need for attention and admiration from others (Millon & Davis, 1996) to mediate the effects of chronic dissatisfaction and self-criticism. Compared to the independent detached interpersonal style noted in male psychopaths, the female’s increased superficial need for attention renders her more dependent on the views and opinions (approval) of others, resulting in a chronic, negative sense of self.

Despite her heightened interest in others, the female psychopath exhibits a reduced capacity for interpersonal relatedness. Our findings support the superficial, shallow, and insincere character of these women, while predicting the female psychopath’s preference for more frequent, superficial interpersonal contacts. The female psychopath’s interest in others is not based on a desire for greater intimacy but, rather, is motivated by a need to be the center of attention. Self-focus is sought in the interests of providing a distraction from ruminative self-criticism, a sense of insecurity, a negative sense of self, and the experience of dysphoric affect. Thus, an examiner should not confuse this increased need for so-called connection with empathy or caring but, instead, should interpret it as an attempt to satisfy her endless needs for attention. In addition, the female psychopath’s diminished capacity for introspection further reduces her ability to establish and maintain.

Millon&Davis (1996) characterized HPD as an amalgam of active-dependent characteristics and sensation-seeking behavior. The histrionic personality was distinguished from the dependent personality by the manner in which the histrionic person actively solicits attention and admiration through seductive, entertaining, and manipulative behaviors. Although both styles exhibit dependency, the histrionic presentation is characterized by a gregarious, extroverted attempt to garner the attention and support of the intended person or group rather than by
more indirect means typically employed by individuals with DPD (dependent personality disorder; American Psychiatric Association, 1994).

The male and female expressions of psychopathy differ from one another in two separate but related dimensions: interpersonal relatedness and self perception.
The female psychopath’s pronounced needs for relatedness and adulation from others form the cornerstone of her histrionic character. Her interpersonal connections are focused on attempts to overcome her negative self-concept and dysphoric feelings that have arisen from her perceived alienation from those around her. The very dysphoria and feelings of anger and irritation she seeks to escape have their roots in unmet needs for affiliation and desire to be entertained by others. The female psychopath lacks the grandiose self-structure and detachment noted in male psychopaths; and although she may lack the male psychopath’s desire for domination and humiliation of others, she displays a corresponding incapacity for empathy and perspective taking.

Female psychopaths also exhibit similar problems empathizing with others when compared to (male psychopathy), they display a clear disregard for the welfare of others despite an outward appearance of interrelatedness.
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Postby PersonOutThere11 » Mon Oct 09, 2006 3:24 pm

The lines between the cluster B personalities are really blurry. (Histrionic, Antisocial, Borderline, and Narcissistic) And co-morbidity is highly likely.

See all four are on the same page fundamentally, just show up in different ways. Some scholars believe that HPD is really a form of NPD, it is the inner life of a "Somatic Narcissist" (body, beauty, etc. based) Then those same scholars will tell you that NPD is really a from of Antisocial PD due to the abuse and lack of empathy and many more aspects. So you have the

HPD---is a form of----> NPD ----is a form of---> ASPD

Then some scholars will tell you that HPD comes from ASPD roots, or that THEY are connected in their drives! So it's really hard to tell the difference between "co-morbidity" and the two disorders overlapping.

By definition, all cluster B disorders overlap, they all have many basic drives and symptoms in common. The question is, for the psychopathological candidate, which PD is strongest in you and is most effecting your life, most prominent? If you cannot narrow it down to one, that is very understandable in that the definition of the PD are not specific enough. They do not have enough SPECIFIC details in which people can see an "out there" behavior and thus, identify whether they are affected by this PD or not.

I hope I at least touched on the answer to your question. Yes, the strong HPD ppl are close to ASPD, and the weak ones are close to BPD, and heck, maybe the middle ones are connected to NPD!!! Once the brain has an environmental need to produce one "personality disorder" (which sounds very derogatory), it just may support that 'new life' with the irrational thinking of another PD. Thus the high likely-hood of co-morbidity.
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Postby Apache » Mon Oct 09, 2006 3:56 pm

No, no there not.
“Illegal aliens have always been a problem in the United States. Ask any Indian.”

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your answer

Postby soulsearch » Mon Oct 09, 2006 6:06 pm

thanks lostHPD for you answer. yes, i believe that the strong HPD ppl are close to ASPD, and the weak ones are close to BPD, and heck, maybe the middle ones are connected to NPD!!! that sounds like a really plausible explanation. perhaps the woman i cared for covered all four areas hpd/bpd/aspd/npd. i honestly think she had shades of all of these areas but was most pronounced as an hpd.

i am actually really over the love part now and am really now just amazed and perplexed about how easy it was for her to find her way into the deep and hidden areas of my soul that only one other person has been allowed to see before. i am an outgoing person but i don't let anyone ever get to me or really get to know me at all. i have clear walls around me. but, somehow it was almost like she had an intricate and detailed map of my inner being that gave her directions around the twists and turns of the confusing maze that are my defensive walls.

it really is true ( i have read this in numerous articles) that cluster b's have an innate ability to read and get into the very soul's of their intended targets.

i found an article about this very subject. it is about borderlines. but, it could read verbatim in it's description of exactly how i felt when i first met this hpd woman-i had never felt this intense energy before within minutes of meeting someone. it scares me to think of the power this woman had over me. although she never knew it i was completely hypnotized and she could of made me do anything. now though, her power has turned to no-power (at least in regards to me) because i am scared of her and no-matter what i will never talk to her again.

this is the article-

Particularly sensitive and adept therapists often describe a typically paradoxical reaction, commonly experienced by most people when first meeting someone who is Borderline. While feeling gently or tenderly drawn toward him, there is simultaneously an almost inconspicuous sensation of a vague knot in the pit of the stomach, as mentioned earlier. A more general description might be that a person feels that he or she too quickly likes someone and feels a faint sense of unease or dread toward him at the same time.

If you experience such mixed sensations when first meeting anyone, ask yourself why you simultaneously liked him so quickly and felt uncomfortable. If it's difficult to answer either question, put your radar system on high alert and scan closely the next time you meet him. If he is Borderline and has locked onto your sympathetic nature, that next encounter may not be too far away.

Without the presence of other personality disorders, someone who is Borderline tends to rapidly move toward developing a dependent relationship with those who show them interest and sympathy. An early sign of this dependency can be recognized by a rapid increase in contact, initiated by the Borderline, and a sense that such an individual has an uncanny ability to read you better than a blind man reads Braille.

Even though you can develop a very sophisticated form of personality-detection radar, it will never be as subtle or fine-tuned as a Borderline's. They have what seem like high-grade, instinctually built-in personality detection systems, comparable to extremely sophisticated phased-array radar systems used in the military for detecting high-speed, small ballistic projectiles, like the cruise missiles used to attack Iraq during the Gulf War.

This system appears to be purely instinctual in Borderlines, because they do not seem conscious of its presence or the information it gives to them, even when this ability is pointed out to them. Generally, this eerily unconscious quality seems to pervade everything about them. In a very basic sense, they do not know who they are. This is one of the most unnerving aspects about them for people who get too close.
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Postby PersonOutThere11 » Mon Oct 09, 2006 8:16 pm

It's actually very paradoxical how they don't know who they are, but they do know who YOU are. And they want to use it to their advantage. Not necessarilt that they want to abuse or hurt you, they want a Narcissistic Supply from you (similar in all cluster b's, most noticable in NPD i bet!). They want you to be vulnerable to them, and being that many of these ppl are souly driven by using others for NS, sure they are damn good at it!

My theory is that many cluster b's were born into chaotic home situations as children, or a home situaton in which they were not given enough attention. Thus, whenever the attention-givers were around, they sucked up everything they did and every move they made; needing to understand the people they desperately depended on for a sense of self.

But other than this, I don't know why it is so easy to see what people are trying to hide and all of the skeletons in their closet and such. How people work is just extremely transparent to me. Guess it's a gift that comes with de-valueing everyone/being scared of them to begin with...don't ask :)
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Re: is severe hpd a form of sociopathy/psychopathy?

Postby mistaben » Thu Nov 18, 2010 9:13 am

could someone just tell me how a normal person is? that would be pretty cool. - what if your like HPD and just want to know what normal is, i would like to at least emulate that even if I can't ever make it there.
Last edited by mistaben on Fri Nov 19, 2010 3:36 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: is severe hpd a form of sociopathy/psychopathy?

Postby wisdom » Thu Nov 18, 2010 4:29 pm

Is severe hpd a form of sociopathy/psychopathy? Absolutely. Here's why.

Per DSM 5 drafts and Otto Kernberg's Personality Disorders Institute I'd say the general professional thinking is that all of HPD is explained (at least fundamentally) by a Borderline Personality (Dis) Organization. In DSM 5 it looks like HPD will "go away" and the diagnosis will become Borderline Personality with certain features (37 separate candidate dimensions and all sorts of clusters of those). Only one of the 37 "features" is "classic HPD" as known in DSM 4 and in this particular Form.

In virtually every case of HPD there seems to be some features that could be clustered on the Anti-social Personality dimension. At the above PDI they screen for AsP traits prior to accepting patients for their treatment programs. When someone scores too high on those traits they conclude that the chance of their 2x weekly psychotherapy for 1-2 years working on that person is not good, so they refer out to others who specialize in that type of patient population. Most people who are legitimately incarcerated score off the charts on AsP traits and programs to address their psychological needs are considerably different. Yes, containment is many times the only currently known effective option.

So, to the extent that HPD=BPD, the more severe forms of HPD would be equivalent to very problematic BPD with likely very high AsP features that would clearly cross the line into sociopathy/psychopathy. Per Kernberg as you inch up the severity of BPD you approach full blown psychosis.

As for what's normal, its really just the absence of very well known, clearly defined and well documented patterns of pathology. When you wash out all the pathology possibilities there is still a huge band of very wide ranging "normal" individual personalities. [Normal is just that, that which conforms to a norm.]

For good outline of what's considered "the norm" see this great checklist. Source: The Efficacy of Psychodynamic Psychotherapy by Jonathan Shedler. Later in that thread you can see someones self report against that check list which is pretty insightful as to the HPD pattern.

For more on psychopathy search on the term "Hare"- lots of solid info springing from that in this Forum and others.
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Re: is severe hpd a form of sociopathy/psychopathy?

Postby orion13213 » Fri Nov 19, 2010 3:09 am

Complicating the picture is NPD comorbidity. HPD women are often very physically beautiful, and whether by genetics or due to environmental responses (i.e., a lot of us guys drooling them during their formative years :lol:) they often have a sense of entitlement comparable to that of Cleopatra's.

During the seduction stage by an HPD, how many of us Nons out there have experienced "The Psychopathic Maneuver," where the HPD established a bond of trust, which was later suddenly and coldy violated?

During the devaluation stage by an HPD, how many of us Nons out there can say they we were "thinged," i.e., rather than seen as human beings with souls, we were perceived by the HPD as now useless inanimate objects, kinda like broken chairs or something?

Note that "malignant narcissm" (a characteristic of NPD or AsPD?) is a term associated with some of the worst AsPD/psychopathic offenders.
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Re: is severe hpd a form of sociopathy/psychopathy?

Postby orion13213 » Fri Nov 19, 2010 3:13 am

The one significant variable seems to be sex-liked, namely testosterone, which produces aggression in men - and significant violence in male AsPD's. Withdraw the testosterone, and perhaps all that remains is the selfish vanity and heartbreaking wanderings characteristic of the HPD female?
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Re: is severe hpd a form of sociopathy/psychopathy?

Postby mistaben » Fri Nov 19, 2010 3:19 am

@wisdom:

My test just said histrionic and desirability were abnormally high. How does all this apply to me?

Isn't the definition of sociopathy/psychopathy fundamentally a lack of empathy? -> which does that mean that the way I've been thinking my friendships work doesn't, specifically that there is some dimension to normal relationships I fundamentally don't get/am not participating in? I mean, I'm asking conceptually if there is something out there that I just am not capable of or don't get to participate in that everyone else does. you know, assuming you can get an HPD person to have long term friends and all...

@orion and wisdom

as far as this HPD female question goes... I don't understand what your talking about by being "thinged" and "dropped coldly". (also makes me wonder if it is something I have been doing to females given my dating history...)
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