So why are they typically good-looking?

By the way, I should have added here that traditional roles for women aren't completely static, it was actually the Victorian middle class housewives up to the same updated version in the 1950s who filled a particularly "ornamental" role congruent with some histrionic features like being interesting or fun (women need to know art, dance, music to be good wives etc) and looking not just sexy but fashionable or a very specific sexual image....in more religious cultures women are also valued for kindness, modesty, loyalty, being good mothers, being able to manage money well, and in ancient Jewish culture being able to run a business with their husbands. So even traditional women can be valued for something besides looks/sex/fun/interesting doll.

In fact I also want to add that my current affair, he actually has informed me he also values me for nurturing him, which is something beyond sex, but is still typical of an appeasing Histrionic to play savior or care taker to another disordered individual.

I think this needs a proper redefinition in DSM. Negative overattention (be it social media or real life) most likely ruins people. HPD in my opinion is the female version of NPD.
Thats the reason NPDs and BPDs get along better. Because HPDs and NPDs constantly fight for attention and who is prettier than who and who gets more supply from each other or from others.

It doesn't matter if they are overly symmetric and beautiful, because when they are not born with it, they copy cat into being so e.g. plastic surgeries, too many hours in the gym or using tons of make up.The "10" you describe here is an illusion, because a number does not fade but beauty certainly fades with age. No surgeon can prevent aging. The typical "hot girl" doesn't exist either, it is the average girl who puts alot effort into becoming pretty.
Humans are born beautiful, no child is ugly from within, but as crystal writes, it is the life choices our parents make with us, our environment and our own decisions after the age of 18 or 21 that have most impact on us.

Bad decision making results from being unhealthy (be it chemistry in brain or whatever) or just because someone is plain dumb. Don't worry Einstein said entire human race is dumb but we learn more and more day by day. For me beauty lost its attraction because I can totally understand how much trouble it can bring with itself. I am a male narcissist to a certain point and it even bothers me if women do the same thing with me. I have a healthy relationship right now and some women just look for the thrill to either flirt with me or go over it. I am abit over the average good looking and that is enough for a society that thinks cheating is another way of living the sexual freedom. It is just wrong and how can any adult justify their own behaviour into blaming his or her past for being the person they are.

You ask why are they typically good looking. This question is rhetorical. Good look is healthy, but wanting to look more than good is a sign that we want competetion to get the most out of any area. Some people really should step back from their ego and look at themselves with the eyes they were born with. I know this is a support forum, but when do people change if they do not see that a beautiful behaviour and character mean so much more in terms of beauty than a piece of skin.
After all what remains is the memory we have. When I look back to the time with my exPD I don't see her beauty anymore but how it made me feel to hug her and how happy it made her.

I used to see her beauty but somehow it does not matter anymore. With my current girlfriend who many "stupid" people would say she is "beautiful" I would just say she has a beautiful character. I know it doesn't represent nowadays attitude the media is representing being egoistic and selfish is hot and amazing, but it is not. It is maybe for the first few months, but after some time has passed nobody would give a damn how good looking anyone is but watch the behaviour. In the more conservative parts people are happy with themselves because this materialistic version of a lifestyle we have the chance to choose does not exist. The wake up call is that this whole thing is a marketing campaign and nothing more.

Looks attract people, characters make people stay in your life. Beauty is a gift, but some do not know what to do with it. It is about learning how to cope with it and to say no to seductions and addictions that may come along the road. Weak characters are not able to do so. Humility is an achievement low functioning NPDs and low functioning HPDs are not able to feel fully. I think that BPDs, even if they mirror some points, are the more adult versions in PDs and do not see too many of these materialistic things, but its just my opinion.

In conclusion, if people say HPD is the less problematic disorder for e.g. relationships (yes on this forum even) I disagree.
NPD and HPD are bringing alot of pain towards partners, the constant drama is addicting and ruining them and others. Beauty kings and beauty queens are not those who rule over a country, but heroic people who earned their way by delivering the role model behaviour. "Princesses" are beautiful and eventually they grow up and become "queens", their beauty fades or stays but their characters develop in the long run which in reality is healthy.

Marmotini,

Obviously his treatment of you isn't just being caused by your looks. My point is our traditional roles have been undermined and that's messing things up. Let me illustrate.

Like do you respect him? Really respect him? Do you admire him? Really admire him?

Probably not. Because you don't really need him.

Just like he doesn't really get much from your support. He doesn't cherish and appreciate you in all the ways men did when women were fully responsible for home and men fully responsible for providing that created deep appreciation, cherishing, pride in one another's respective accomplishments, and respect.

Cheating, not listening to each other? Unthinkable.

Relationships are luxuries now. Both of you have the capacity to be independent. So what are you wanted for?

Sex, companionship, etc.

What do you want him for? You want him to love you that's it. You don't need or respect him. I can tell by how trophywife talks about men. Maybe you're different, maybe not.

Your looks will make you target, but only in the context of our society.

And in the end you have the choice to downplay them and attract different kinds of men. No woman is naturally that beautiful -- just focusing on appearance

He doesn't feel like a real man in his life so he objectifies you more than usual.

Marmotini wrote:So even traditional women can be valued for something besides looks/sex/fun/interesting doll.

That traditional women are valued for much more is precisely my point.

My point earlier however if childhood doesn't prepare you for adulthood - whatever those expectations may be - then you will look back on it and think ill of how you were treated.

But another point, as you made, is that being valued for other things is important.

In order for that to be so, women and men cannot be crossing over into each other's respective areas.

For him to love and appreciate her on multiple levels, and take pride in her accomplishments because they reflect well on him, she must devote herself to home and family, and him, so he is truly needed and respected and admired, must devote himself to his occupation, whatever it may be.

And it's the bringing together of these two goal pursuits that creates real relationships, and real people who are 'seen' by each other, and their communities.

Otherwise, you're just fighting against the world. The problems of HPD (and I mean that in the broadest sense) cannot be dealt with in isolation.

You'll just keep going in circles because the things that are causing it do not lie in you.

Even if the roles of women are redefine, men will only objectify them more so long as those roles overlap and infringe on each other's areas. If he does not truly feel needed and respected he will objectify you. Women will have the same problem in relation to men -- becoming more narcissistic, disrespectful, etc.

crystal_richardson_ wrote:...
This curse of beauty thing in childhood wouldn't be a problem if we weren't expected in adulthood to develop other things which we are now.
...

2 cents to throw in -

Sometimes I find it helpful to look at ?similar? situations to gain some perspective, and because sometimes a similar but different situation is less emotionally charge. Since the word 'curse' is used here, a similar situation could be the 'curse of being born into wealth'. This raises many difficult questions/thoughts including (assume there is no "TRUTH", just people's opinions/thoughts that matter) -

Is being born into wealth an advantage?

If you had a choice to be born into wealth or not, what percentage of people would choose wealth vs average or poor?

If someone is born into wealth, and the money runs out, are they less prepared than others to deal with life later?

Are people born into wealth treated poorer, about the same, better than others overall?

Is it curse? When one is wealthy sometimes others act like they like you because they want money. Is that objectification? Do wealthy sometimes want to be objectified? Are wealthy people sometimes conflicted, and want both the options to be objectified, but also to be loved for 'who they are'?

Does being born into wealth correlate with a tendency toward narcissistic thinking?

And a very tough question/thought -

I'm a white male in a country where white males earn more income than other people. On a personal level, I of course want to believe I 'earned' my way, but others might say 'I have an advantage' (which is hard on our egos, to accept we have advantages vs thinking we earned x, y, z). Who is right?

I never suggested that beauty is all good or all bad - you are exactly right, it's a conflict. a dilemma actually.

but it's not inherent is my point. in our society beauty, skin colour, etc. create conflict whereas these differences do not in other cultures.

so the point is HPD is not caused by being born good-looking (or rather the potential to be good looking).

people make choices in the context of their surroundings and lives. HPD makes sense - until it doesn't, until they are adults in their culture/society and the expectations/circumstances have changed considerably and they can no longer get by adaptively or be content on their looks or charm alone.

it was adaptive, and even beneficial, but that changed causing it to become a disorder.

there are people who go the reverse route. they grow up ugly, discovered or acquired beauty, and enjoy being superficial, appearance-focused, etc.

so i don't believe there is any inherent problem caused by being born with the potential be good looking, basically.

Hi crystal,

Yea, it's a dilemma, and of course the questions were rhetorical.

There is an interesting documentary titled "Miss Representation", by women, for women. It's worth a watch if it's still on Netflix or on the air. Interesting how the guys I've talked with that have seen this had no problem with it, but I've talked with women who found this documentary to be quite upsetting, even though it is produced by women who are middle age now, and 'successful' in business. They have a lot to say on the matter of how focusing on appearance can negatively impact on women later in life ... keeping in mind many acknowledged it was their focus when younger, and they are discussing this from the point of view of women in societies where there is encouragement (but also increasingly pressure) to be successful in the job world (a pressure that of course males feel, but it's their norm so not discussed much).

looks interesting.

I think a similar thing is happening among boys. the norms aren't in favour of them entirely, or even much at all.

so boys who are born 'too active, inattentive, easily bored' are diagnosed with Adhd as they enter the school environment but typically not before.

likewise, HPD typically isn't a problem until later; it may even be expected teenage behaviour.

Adhd is probably adaptive in cultures that require more active, less sedentary males in adulthood.

Marmotini says people she was with often didn't really listen to her; perhaps in part he believed what she was talking about was something she shouldn't be concerned with, and maybe he was partly right.

but she feels differently; he still has this idea of women as not supposed to be concerned with such things, but it's in-congruent with her world and the things that now concern her.

perhaps, prior those things were of no concern, and so she didn't talk about them, and he grow up with those expectations and hence may tune out when women talk about other stuff.

perhaps she doesn't want to talk about that stuff either - I mean who wouldn't want to keep it light and fun always if they could? - but they are concerns of hers nonetheless, especially now, whereas men still want women to be their escape, and women want to be this too but are finding it harder as they are confronted with more responsibility and issues of their own in adulthood.

other than the neglected-type of HPD where attention seeking behaviour is due to neglect, i think HPD will eventually disappear as childhoods adjust to new demands.

it still exists now because we're in transition and there is a conflict between what we can do and be (given our talents and tendencies) in childhood, and what may radically different be expected of us in adulthood, or that we MUST do to survive and adapt.

obviously, it's more than just a failure to 'grow up' - on some level, even though it's maladaptive, the behaviours are still being reinforced, as men, perhaps even more than before, still desire/need an escape, but both desires/roles run into conflict with reality.

crystal_richardson_ wrote:this is about as pretty as you can get without makeup...

Meh... disagree with you there. I've seen far more naturally beautiful women, but to each their own.[/quote]

Oi! Watch it, she looks like me with a better jaw, a better tan and a lack of awkwardly huge eyes