Anyone ever had this happen?

by **warum** » Mon Sep 18, 2006 8:59 pm

I guess we read two different masterson's.
I'll write tomorrow the page numbers schatzchen.
Masterson is very clear re; the 0-3 years mothers's influence
and
3-adolescence fathers's influence
Please don' respond untill I give you the page numbers,
I don't wanna embarrasss you mein schatz

Hi bountyman,
sounds a lot like interactions that i'd have w/my ex. I could never figure out why I felt like nothing would get resolved..and how simple statements I would make would get twisted into my 'need to have everyone agree with my point of view' - there was never a real discussion..it would turn into a debate where I'd be made to feel like she really didn't care for me much..which would get me sad..and cause me to shut down and just want to end the talk..but by then ..she was just getting rolling and would take me on some twisted mind-f$ck that would almost bring me to tears in its apparent nonsensical craziness.
Ugh.
-- then there were outright things like- ignoring direct questions of why she did something, or how a past relationship ended, or things like that...that most NORMAL people would glady expose to a 'lover' ..but now I see that she needed to control me and thus control all information. The few times we were 'getting along' and had a good time somewhere- she'd find a way to rip it apart a day or 2 later..and imagine some slight or ask why i'd want to be with someone like her..or such. =
-= eeeeeek
!

by **jaysoncur** » Tue Sep 19, 2006 5:21 am

The two of you would start getting close self activation and she'd freak out and distance herself and reject and crtiticize you defence. Her real feelings about herself would surface asking you why you would want to be with someone worthless like her the abandonment depression. Her own mother didn't allow her to express what she thought accusing you of the same is a replay of this. She also controlled you just like her own mother did with her. Many people on this forum don't want to believe me when I say that PD"S are the result of early abusive interactions like these that they had with their mothers. Banies don't come out of the womb this way these are learned behaviors.

by **warum** » Tue Sep 19, 2006 1:56 pm

jaysoncur wrote:warun I disagree. Masterson clearly states in his books that in his practice he finds fathers are unavailable and distant an do not contribute much to the upbringining of the infant and young child. This continues into adolescence so that the development of personality disorders is due to the Mother's behavior. Masterson is very careful to use non threatening words to describe the mother's abuse and neglect probably because he doeasn't want to offend sensitive readers. Ask any recovered Borderline who is being honest and see what they say about how "overprotective" and "nurturing" their mothers were. They'll say they were neither more like profoundly neglectful and emotionally abusive and used them to fill up their void not caring about their needs.

Masterson does stress the role of fathers. Their role is not the same as mothers, but by being unavailable, distant, etc. they contribute to the pathalogy. He suggests that fathers are play a role in the successful separation of the self from that of the mother, esp. between ages 3-6. There is noone else who can perform the same role. True, mothers are more responsible for the emergence of pds, but disfunctional families are also responsible.
I checked Masterson's book Search for Real Self again, and pages 36, 56, 81 contain some references to fathers' role. I am sure there are more references, but to find them, I need to read the whole book again, for which I don't have time now.

by **warum** » Tue Sep 19, 2006 2:05 pm

target_of_histrionic wrote:Ask any recovered Borderline who is being honest and see what they say about how "overprotective" and "nurturing" their mothers were. They'll say they were neither more like profoundly neglectful and emotionally abusive and used them to fill up their void not caring about their needs.

J...sorry i'm not quite sure exactly what you mean here. are you saying that overprotective mothers can cause pd as well?

Overprotective mothers are also a major cause of the pds, as are abusive mothers. They are not necessarily the same mothers though. A mother can be overprotective all the time, and not have any abusive attitude, and you end up with a damaged self of the kid. Masterson says clearly that overprotectiveness extends to periods when the child does not comply with the wishes of the mother (hence he/she will lack accountability, emphaty). The mother's overprotectiveness leads the child to not separate from the mom ever (esp. if the father is not around) and he/she will expect the same protector/provider role from others (lovers, husband, wife) later in life. He/she would simply avoid taking any responsibility for his/her behaviour toward those if intimacy requires it (and it does).

by **Bountyman** » Tue Sep 19, 2006 3:17 pm

Interesting you bring up the point about protector/provider. I can't tell you how many times my ex would say when we were fighting or something that she thought I was going to protect her and never let anything happen. Then she would say, just go ahead and leave everyone who has ever been in my life leaves. it is almost like she acts out a self fulfilling prophecy. She doesn't want me to go, but then does things and pushes me away tha make me want to go/bail. Then a few days would pass, and she would want me back. Rinse, wash, repeat. It fealt like a vicious cycle.

by **jaysoncur** » Wed Sep 20, 2006 2:53 am

Warum this is how Masterson puts it in his 2004 book A therapist guide to the Personality Disorders.

A Borderline Mother may cling to the child and reward regressive behavior as a way of defending against her own anxiety and abandonment issues which have not been addressed. The Borderline mother is available for regression and unavailable for individuation. Conversely a Borderline mother may be uncomfortable with the child's dependency and promote premature seperation.

The father of a Borderline child is typically uninvolved with the mother child relationship and does not rescue the child from these interactions. He is usually absorbed in work or interests that keep him away from home and are not opposed by the mother.

And Treatment of the Borderline Adolescent

The mothers clung to their own children to defend themselves against their own feelings of abandonment

When we examined the mothers of our pateints we found that they suffered from the same diffulculties in their early life as did their own children. They also developed the Borderline syndrome.

by **warum** » Wed Sep 20, 2006 11:56 am

jaysoncur wrote:Warum this is how Masterson puts it in his 2004 book A therapist guide to the Personality Disorders.

A Borderline Mother may cling to the child and reward regressive behavior as a way of defending against her own anxiety and abandonment issues which have not been addressed. The Borderline mother is available for regression and unavailable for individuation. Conversely a Borderline mother may be uncomfortable with the child's dependency and promote premature seperation.

The father of a Borderline child is typically uninvolved with the mother child relationship and does not rescue the child from these interactions. He is usually absorbed in work or interests that keep him away from home and are not opposed by the mother.

And Treatment of the Borderline Adolescent

The mothers clung to their own children to defend themselves against their own feelings of abandonment

When we examined the mothers of our pateints we found that they suffered from the same diffulculties in their early life as did their own children. They also developed the Borderline syndrome.

the sentence "the father is typically uninvolved" does suggest that the fathers play a BIG role by not being involved. Especially after the age of 3, fathers play/don't play a role (by being "unavailable") in the individuation of the child.

by **jaysoncur** » Wed Sep 20, 2006 6:38 pm

I agree we just have a different perspective.

by **Maniac10000** » Thu Sep 21, 2006 3:46 am

Dude, no brainer on personality disorders CAUSED by the child's upbringing. Let's get this over with..

ANY, PERSONALITY ISSUES...

are from PARENTS.

Anyone ever had this happen?

ADVERTISEMENT

Re: please clarify

father

Who is online