What about dissassociation and HPD's

Hello,

So I just got back from my own personal therapist....talked to him about how I frequently have to drink alcohol in order to engage in a sexual escapade with men....He told me that I am using alcohol to diss. I never thought about it! If I were to have this guy over to my house and not be drinking, I would probably tell him to leave because he is such a jerk! Alcohol allows me to disengage from the situation and carry out my acts.....I realize that I have been selectively diss. from many things in my life - in fact, i am really good at it. If I couldnt do it, my life would be too painful.

So you know then I start asking him if I am BPD is his opinion because of this....and of course he says that I am "reassurance seeking" but that no I am not BPD....He told me that most PD's can diss. to some extent. I am just shocked, I diagnosis this stuff everyday but NEVER saw it in myself...I thought I was too smart or too skilled to need to resort to diss....but in fact, I am not.

Can anyone else out there identify when and how they are diss??? How it helps or hurts them?

I know it helps me do what I want to do....but it hurts me in the sense that I am not being "real" with myself and feelings. As a child i learned how to "fake" and hide my feelings, so it is not difficult for me to this in any scenerio....Diss. is just something I do so that I dont actually have to "feel" any emotions about what I am doing! Yikes! I have sooooo much work to do. Thank god I am 30, professional job, great 4 year old - or my life would really be a mess. I have so many identities outside of an intimate relationship that keep me sane. In my 20's I didnt have those other identities and I was so much more insane, wild, and fragile.

Good topic mylife

Your therapist is right people who were abused DISS. when they encounter situations that remind them of their abuse. You learned this as and infant and child whenever the stress of being abused became too much allowing you to go into a trance and ignore what was happening that's also why you haven't recognized it until now therapy is working.

You said as a child you learned to be FAKE and hide your REAL feelings lest you be overwhelmed. The psychodynamics are clear In other words you created a False Self your Histrionic Personality and buried your Real Self in order to survive.

Well If the therapist James F. Masterson was your patient he'd say you were a high functioning Borderline as I've said before. Since you are Histrionic the organization of your thinking the feelings that go along with it and your defense mechanisms and ego structure are all the same as a classic high functioning Borderline.

My mother use to DISS.whenever she was abusive like witholding things I really needed or yelling in an angry and bitter tone she thought it was GOOD for me totally cut off form her emphaty and regular emotions. Later on she would deny that what she did was mean or hurtful and say it didn't happened the way I described it.
During those times my mother was in a bad place would DISS and feel better. So it does help the abused person cope but because people DISS with their kids friends or lovers they end up reinflicting their own miseries on them and not knowing it so eventually something bad comes out of it.

Since I don't suffer from a Personality Disorder and have done work on myself I am unable to DISS like you mylife. Now when I do get into those states I can usually recognise it pretty quit and try to figure out why to better understand myself and to see what else I need to work on.

J -

Well first I never was abused - ever. I have been catered to all my life by MOST of my family - actually handled with gentle gloves because I am known to be a drama queen and I real brat when I dont get my way.

So as far as diss, in my case, it is not due to abuse. People can diss without having been abused...it is merely a coping mechanism....and actually those who can do it are quite skilled because it allows them to disengage from harmful memories, situations, etc....

Now, as far as your comment goes about BPD's and myself being a "high functioning BPD"....Personality disorders do not have a criteria selections such as Major Depression (mild, moderate, severe). In order to be diagnosed by ALL practicing clinicians you have to meet diagnostic criteria to obtain a diagnosis. I do NOT meet the criteria for BPD; therefore, I am not BPD. Now, it may be true that HPD is a minor form of BPD (which I agree with) but if you are a not meeting diagnostic criteria for BPD than you are not BPD. It may be that you are HPD or it may be that you simply are a PD NOS with traits of a particular disorder....just as the DSM reads.

In order to be a high-functioning or low-functioning BPD you MUST be BPD first. An HPD is an HPD, high or low functioning....what would you call a very high functioning HPD? A 'super high functioning BPD?'. Do you seem my point? It may be that Masterson has some valid points, but as I said previously, you cannot just take one persons work and make into fact. Now although BPD and HPD have some similarities, their defensive mechanisms, thought structure, lifestyle, coping tactics are different which is precisely why they are a different diagnosis.
I think that by merging diagnosis you are losing the foundamental structure of each disorder.

Another example would be PTSD and anxiety or depression and anxiety. These disorders can manifest themselves in similar ways and often times are in fact inflicted by the same pain. In one person, depression appears and another anxiety appears over the same issue. Often times the symptoms look similar and it is even difficult to differentiate between the two at times. If we are to say that same underlying causes of depression and anxiety are the same, than should we cojoin these disorders to one? If in fact they are both caused by similar life situations? That would be silly....because the symptomology is different in the same way that HPD and BPD symptomology is different. Or perhaps we should in fact combine all Cluster B disorders to just simply be Cluster B disorder....that would not work either because the symptoms of each specific disorder in Cluster B are quite different. If a client were to tell me that they were Cluster B I would know that they are personality disordered but would not know how that appears in their life, nor would I know how to treat it....since each disorder has a different treatment protocol.

If a client comes in and says they are BPD then I KNOW what to look for and expect and that presentation looks VERY DIFFERENT than a HPD. Which is why I cannot agree that they are same disorder, albeit they might be caused by similar life situations.
PD's were not created overnight. They took time, research, and extensive studies to create. The reason there is HPD and BPD is because they are two distinct presentations and symptoms. I can agree that perhaps the life backgrounds are similar but as I have said before, BPD's lives are typically much more chaotic, unstable and abusive - which is why they are BPD and not HPD.

You really must read Masterson in full to get what I'm saying. I've read kohut and Winnicott and Jung and some of the other pioneers who studied personality disorders. They were right on some things but I always felt something was missing in their work like they didn't quite get the full picture and didn't answer all my questions. When I discovered Masterson however things bagan to clear up his work was very in depth and it seemed like he was going in the right direction. He has used all these early pioneers in his work but he has filled in the gaps and extended it so his theory is more evolved because he relies on evidence gathered from his work with patients in his office.

The DSM is a very useful tool he uses it in his practice but it's only a part of the tools he uses to come up with a diagnosis. In his work with Histrionics he has found that their intrapsychic structure is the same as a Borderline ONLY the symptoms are different. He uses the SAME kind of therapy on them as with his Borderlines and it WORKS they get better. So he BROUDANS the definition of Borderline organisation meaning what symptoms they are capable of having. So you could say that an HPD is a Borderline because their intraphychic structure developmental history etc is the same form what Masterson has found in his 35 year practice. ONLY the symptoms are different which are of a Histrionic nature. You understan?

Also the DSM criteria for Borderlines describes mainly low functioning Borderlines that are like you said more chaotic and unstable the DSM doesn;t take into account the high functioning Borderline so they sometimes may be misdiagnosed as Nuerotic. That's another thing Masterson finds fault in. However the DSM is a great tool and should be used I'm not bashing it by any means.

If you were never abused you'd be the first I've met or spoken to. I have NEVER met anyone who was not abused to some degree which also affected their personality. Some of these people would say their parents were PERFECT and then later on describe to me situations with parents that in fact were. I'd explain to them that was abuse but they would get defensive and deny it or rationlize it into something that was harmless. They were DISS from the emotional impact it was having on them that is why they couldn't see what was really happening their real feelings were unavailable to them.

Studies have shown that DISS that you are describing is a result of abuse and neglect. If one was NEVER mistreated one will not NEED this defense mechanism. For more on this you should go to this website PSYCHOHISTORY.com and read the free articles and books about how prevalent child abuse really is and was around the world but that people still continue to deny. First read The Emotional Life of Nations it has alot on DISS of all kinds along with thousands of references. The evidence that book presents is massive and clear. NO child abuse and neglect NO development of personality disorders or any other form of mental dysfunction. Do read it along with Masterson okay?

Interesting discussion guys.

Hmmm, one thing that I've come across in my studies of the personality disorders is that physical, sexual, or verbal abuse or the abuse of neglect aren't the only roads for creation of PD's.

For the creation of NPD I've learned it can often be brought about by catering to a child too much but unlike in mylife's scenario where that was all it was (well in the addition to her father's neglect) is the creation of a NPD can have that catering and also the parents or parent building the child up with godlike expectations on them and once the parent realizes the child cannot meet them that parent abuses the child in some horrible way out of dissapointment that begins the formulation of NPD with the child now trying to get back to where they were in their parents eyes before by proving them wrong and that they were worthy of all that praise and catering and love. Their success is not only aimed at that but getting back at their parent or parents for doubting their greatness.

Been a while since I studied narcissism in depth but I thought I'd bring up what I remembered.

I had experiences where i was expected to be as great as my brother in school. I got all A's one year, but my mom said "great" as in a, "you must have really worked hard to get that and i am proud of that fact. because it's not like you could do it on your own. i mean it's not like you're naturally smart." I felt like such a loser, and I have never been able to try in school, sports, or anything I knew i wouldn't be #1 at since, even to this day, literally (omg i just had a huge REVELATION...)
The truth is, when i actually would force myself to do my homework, I would break down and cry, I would keep doing it just to see if i had the strength to do it, crying the whole time. omg
i think i have a problem...i'm call a free clinic tomorrow
i've never even written these things before, they were just floating around my head like hidden truths
now everything is coming to the table
i don't think i've ever felt so worthless as then, but my memory is a bit shaky anyway

Kontroller X you are absolutely correct that is EXACTLY what Masterson says only he describes it differently. The child FEELS loved and is catered to but was in fact used by the mother as a vehicle for her own grandiose frustrated needs which get projected onto the child. If the child fails in any way the mother becomes overtly abusive and neglectful. that is where the child develops the grandiose defensive false self of the Narcissistic Personality. This is how Masterson describes it.

"Typically the Narcissistic patient particularly the higher level one will describe his or her childhood as good with the idealization of both parents however a basic history emerges.

"The parents of a Classic Narcissist use the child as an extension of their own grandiosity. Expectations are projected onto the child The Real Self goes underground the child's grandiose self is being mirrored and stays out . Any appearance of the child's Real Self is met with SCORN DERISION HUMILIATION SHAME COLD WIHDRAWAL and DISSAPPROVAL in other words ABUSE and NEGLECT In response the idealized child will bring out parts of the self that connect with the mother developing into a fused grandiose omnipotent unit which the Narcissisist will try to replicate the rest of their lives. The child feels loved but was in fact used upon closer examination the mother appears to have been cold and exploititive unable to acknowledge confirm or support her child's Real Self and instead treats the child as an extension of her own frustrated needs. The child's preoccupation with maintaning the mother's idealization preserves the false narcissistic self and helps to avoid awareness of the authentic Real Self and of the empathic failures and depersonification of the child in other words the mothers abuse and neglect this is the child who will go on to develop a grandiose Narcissistic Personality disorder"

lost HPD that's a similiar scenario on the surface other people might have seen that as loving but it wasn't it was rejection and humiliation "I felt like such a loser" you were desperate to get their love and approval but didn't feel you could even if you tried
"I would keep doing it just to see if I had the strength crying the whole time" One of the differences between Naricissists and Histrionic is that N's feel entitled while histrionics don't so they will settle for much less in terms of love approval etc. from other people.

Sounds like you have been dissociated somewhat from your feelings and expereinces try to remember if you don't get overwhelmed it's very helpful in order to get to the truth.

KX excellent description-
can you describe how this may or may not be related to how a lot of American Asians defer to their parents...even tho they may be successful and independent...enter a mother- and the mother becomes a priority. To me it seems like a false, identity crushing, duty ridden, ridiculous insult to anyone else that is involved w/the one deferring to the parent.

I am thinking of a couple I know where this is very very difficult on the relationship since the mother comes to stay at their house ofter, is carted around to casinos spending her SSec check, and otherwise butts into the middle of their relationship.

The one whose mother it is..just shrugs her shoulders and says..'that's how it is'..the other one suffers not only the invasion..but the disrespect of her feelings by the other.

While I wouldn't leave my mother on the street, I think the parents of this ilk are to blame. I am assuming it is expected by the mother..I am also thinkign the daughter is trained not to talk about anythign.
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one of the poster's here mentioned the history and politics of personality..and stated that the middle eastern countries are for example so messed up and war torn and living in dirt huts becasue they're filled w/npd, ppd, bpd, etc..due to the way they raise their kids. How do you feel about that (true or stretching it)and the old school Asian countries.
-thanx-

Rumin8r9 the Middle Eastern Poster is me have you read the books? You hit on a very important point about Asian culture. Asian cultures today are filled with antisocials schizoids and borderlines. In fact the most advanced Asian country today is Japan a minority of their population is Narcissistic and Depressive personalities. Prosperous China for example has an infanticide rate of over 33 percent. their official sex ratio is listed as 120 to 100 in favor of boys that only takes into account the female infanticide of legitimate baby girls and does not include the killing of both legitimate and illigitimate baby boys. there are many provinces in
China that have sex ratios of 132 to 100 it's not just the poor rich areas have high infanticide rates also so they can't blame it on economics.

India has astronomical infanticide rates as well over 33 percent. Tawain and Korea also have very imbalanced sex ratios which means infanticide is occuring on a large scale. A study done in 1990 in Thailand found 75 percent of men admitted to recently having sex with child prostitutes. In Bali people live in a world filled with gods and spirits and people often go amok which is a dissoiciated state where they kill people in wild uncontrolled sprees. Extremely severe child abuse and neglect in Asia is the norm very similiar to the Middle East and Africa.

thanks for that update 'j' - boy....that paints a scary picture.

I have been thinking over the last weeks..at least in my own conception of what I expect from another person is really getting to be 'not much' for the majority of folks. I am lucky to have some good friends..but I think as far as expecting a blissful relationship- I am dreaming ....and lucky if I find one..but not counting on it.

A friend of mine said that she thinks that in America at least(where I am) that after WWII there was a huge slab of propoganda that was fed to people about 'marriage' and living happily ever after with another person. That is great..a great morality(however women were subservient) but in all the morality and ethics of things were good.. but but how many people really can live up to those- I feel I was raised in that environment. However I was lucky..there are many more that weren't...that were abused/neglected/dealt with mental illness/drugs/alch abuse in parents and guardians/were poor/etc.

I feel that I am possibly a fringe of 'normalcy' in a very effed up world now. I feel that so much was hidden under the rug up til the late 60s/and 80s really blew out a lot of sexual issues that were hidden. but ..now I am like..
re-thinking or relaxing how I am surprised at how poorly many in our society act.

I've never spent time in other coutries long enough to really see what is up there. I have a friend from Indonesia..who is ..well odd in how she relates to me...but I can't put a finger on it. She's willing to sacrifice a lot to come here and live lonely in the US.
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The world - ugh. So ..maybe when GWBush says we can't negotiate w/these people...he ain't lying? Maybe their heads are so effed up that they aren't even on the same wavelength at all. ?
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Err... I don't know. I'd need some friends in the State Dept to back that up.
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