Homosexuality and cluster B disorders

Hello.

I know this has been brought up here many, many times... But still, I would like some new input.
Does anyone else also believe Cluster B disorders and homosexuality have a high co-occurrence?

Also, I would like to say that I do believe cluster B disorders are like the spectrum of the same disorder. Some people have more permanent traits of say, BPD, but also will show some HPD and so on. That's like a bipolar who has more depression, but also can get hypomanic. It's a spectrum. Disorder is the same, symptoms vary in intensity and frequency.

I remember a post done here by a guy who believed NPD/BPD and ASPD/HPD were like "male and female" respectively of the same type of people/disorder. I think this analogy was great, as the similarities in essence but difference in expression really seem to be there.

This was his post: http://www.psychforums.com/borderline-personality/topic130637.html



A lot of people notice homosexuals (both men and women) have traits of the cluster B personality disorders and vice-versa.
There's obsvioulsy SOMETHING to it, since so many people report finding that homosexuals exibhit varying Cluster B disorder's traits.

Official data and literature does not go deep into it, I believe. I never found anything regarding it in depth, at least. Some experts mention briefly how HPD and BPD men specially are very prone to being homosexual or bisexual. But ASPD and NPD women and men have a high incidence of not being straight, also, it seems.

I do know that the official stuff says that most of the cluster B disorders have sexual orientation that is unstable. But at least by personal experience and observation, most of the NPDs, HPDs, BPDs and ASPDs I know have a fixed sexual orientation, be it homo, hetero or bi.

Now, by my own accounts exclusively:

I noticed quite often that most homosexuals I've met (both women and men) are easily diagnosable with cluster B disorders. A lot of people who already have been diagnosed are gay.
I used to club a lot a few years ago, and since the best clubs were the gay ones, I made a lot of gay friends. A lot of them know I have a good understanding of psychiatric disorders and talk to me about it. I'm amazed to see how often they run into problems due to getting in a relationship with a full blown BPD, or seek advice to control BPD/HPD related issues. NPD and ASPD also seem common among gay people, but I don't get people talking about it often.
Seems like NPD and ASPD folk are more aware but less inclined to discuss it or see it as problem than BPD and HPD folk in general, though (by my personal experience at least).

Most gay men I know are extremely narcisistic, be it in a more benign form or not.
BPD runs in my family, and literally all of the men who exibhit strong BPD symptoms are gay and have been since childhood (I grew up close to most of my cousins), so I think that exclude an environmental development theory there greatly I guess.

I think the opinions of the professionals are biased due to circumstances. I think the sexual orientation of a gay male NPD or ASPD is harder to pinpoint by mere observation, hence why BPD and HPD men get seen as homosexuals more often. It just "shows" more. If you think about it, the stereotype of the gay man could easily be a BPD/HPD sufferer.
The same applies to women: usually, it's harder to tell if a gay woman is gay because they don't act like the stereotype often. So it just doesn't show.

Of course, a person can be straight and have such mannerisms and behavior. Or not have them and be gay. Like I said, I believe official research is lacking and what we read about it could be faulty observations by some professionals.

To be clear: I do believe a lot of homosexuals don't have said disorders. There is strong co-occurence when the disorder is there, but not at all exclusive to one another.

But I think it's worth discussing this, since it can shed light on both Cluster B PDs and possible causes for homosexuality. In a biological sense, that is. Also, can show how these PDs can develop when an individual doesn't get the right kind of treatment by it's peers and society.

Do you think the cause of homosexuality and the cause of these personality disorders can be linked? Does anyone done any research or can link studies here about it?
I would like to hear more about it.

I think it's very possible homosexuals have a high co-occurrence but I don't think one necessarily causes the other. I think that a life time of discrimination would put anyone more at risk to developing mental disorders.

I don't particularly believe that pointing that out helps anyone. Both homosexuals and people with personality disorders are highly discriminated against. Pointing out that homosexuals have a high co-occurrence only worsens that discrimination.

Exiled. wrote:I think it's very possible homosexuals have a high co-occurrence but I don't think one necessarily causes the other. I think that a life time of discrimination would put anyone more at risk to developing mental disorders.

I don't particularly believe that pointing that out helps anyone. Both homosexuals and people with personality disorders are highly discriminated against. Pointing out that homosexuals have a high co-occurrence only worsens that discrimination.

That's one of the things I would like to get more information about it, though.

Does the discrimination cause the disorder? Or are they just "biological cousins"?

Or both: biological predisposition + lifetime of stress and social difficulty triggers an certain illness (or possibly adaptive behaviors), thus explaining possibly higher co-occurrence?

And this discussion could even possibly shed some light on the nature of the discrimination homosexuals and people with PDs suffer. I think when we break down certain behaviors or conditions, into tiny bits and explain how it came to be, people become more acceptant.

Bipolar, depression and schizophrenia used to be way more discriminated upon before the common people began to know a little better how it is all a physical illness like any other, that can be treated, and not a character flaw or simply "oh, that guy is just crazy". By breaking these disorders into information people can understand and relate, it gets easier to be at least tolerant.
PDs are trickier of course, but still possible to be understood in a similar way.

I don't discriminate either even though people with PDs have wronged/hurt me in the past. Still doesn't apply to everyone they meet in their lives, so shouldn't be discriminated.

You do have a valid point. Open discussion can reduce stigma.

Still, I'd prefer smarter people than I to figure out the gory details rather than speculate. I'm also uncomfortable with the prospect of associating homosexuality with mental disorders since it was once considered a mental disorder and it seems a step backward to now try to associate them.

I don't think you should say most gay people are personality disordered.... I don't believe that.... not even a majority of them. None of my gay friends have been PDish. :/

Though the other way around I could get. I could see a lot of pwPD having a variable sexuality because maybe they don't form normal attachments and that blurs the lines between sexuality and pathology.

I know I have a very confused sexual and gender identity... lol. :c

vertices wrote:I don't think you should say most gay people are personality disordered.... I don't believe that.... not even a majority of them. None of my gay friends have been PDish. :/

Though the other way around I could get. I could see a lot of pwPD having a variable sexuality because maybe they don't form normal attachments and that blurs the lines between sexuality and pathology.

I know I have a very confused sexual and gender identity... lol. :c

Most gay people I know have PD traits. Just an anectodal report, personal observation. And then I said how in the gay community, cluster B sufferers seem to be very abundant.

But yeah... I also believe PD sufferers are more likely to be gay than the other way around. Homosexuality has many causes, but this might actually be one of the common ones, though.

For whatever it's worth I've been participating and reading in this forum for a few years.

One of the more common revelations that has been written about is the damage caused to children who learn to suppress the majority of their feelings, who are rewarded for putting on an 'act', to play out a small repertoire of behaviors that appeal to one or both parents. Of course to some degree that's true for everyone, but when it goes to an extreme...

Anyway I'm doubtful any conclusions can be reached regarding this question, but something to consider is the damage caused to people whose fundamental feelings toward the same/opposite sex are suppressed, discouraged, scoured, etc for much of their life, not just their parents, but often peers, teachers, others in general.

^ ^ I quite agree, xdude.

The development of one can be cause for the development of the other.

Childhood molestation (associated with BPD and HPD moreso than the other two) has been speculated to often cause an unsettled sense of identity in the individual. For me, I was molested by a male (I'm a male myself) and this trauma was compounded by my lack of a father figure and later by being sexually assaulted.

Histrionics are typically attracted to those whose personalities complement them, or who complement them in some symbolic way. We feel incomplete in some way, so we're looking for what we feel we lack. Histrionic women have historically been heterosexual most often, while depending on which DSM you're reading, histrionic men are typically homosexual or bisexual. Histrionics are typically pseudohypersexual.

Borderlines vary so much that there is literally no indicative sexual disposition, except in the impulsive subtype. Borderlines have the intrinsic belief that they don't know themselves, so their sexuality is likely to be tenuous.

Narcissists would logically be attracted to those who resemble themselves in some way. Narcissism is associated with homosexuality.

I personally don't have HDP -was more browsing other forums than my usual ones- But I have noticed that many gay people do have Personality Disorders yes.. I am personally bisexual as well, and most of my gay friends also have personality disorders, though none of them actually because they are gay, because usually they had the disorder long before knowing they were gay...

Also in the Dissociative Identity Disorder forum I've noticed that people tend to have one or more personalities which have different sexualities. For me, I'm bi, one other personality is bi, and one is straight so yeah...

Of course, whether there's a relation or not is hard to say, and actually also hard to research because of the stigma on it. People are trying to get being gay more open and not labelled as a disease or mental disorder. Even if there would be undeniable proof that being gay IS linked to having disorders, this could lead to wrong conclusions of reasons why, and/or further the stigma on it. I doubt many gay people, myself included, would be happy with such research. An outcome of 'no there is no correlation' would bring nothing, and an outcome of 'there is a correlation' could have negative social effects and stimulate those who are in favour of 'curing gayness'